[Ibogaine] phenibut and litium orantate

Valarie val.needis at gmail.com
Fri Oct 18 19:06:24 CDT 2013


Sergie, That was the one I was telling you about, I guess you didn't see my
post.
Yeah its great.
I printed out and showed my family and TRIED to show my doctor.
Lotof Love, Val
On Oct 18, 2013 4:03 PM, "Sergey Sibirian" <sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:

> Val,
>
> *You should really check out that link Jim gives.*
> http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha02.htm*
> *
> *It is written by somebody who REALLY knows what he's talking about.*
> *It's professional and detailed.*
>
> Here's an extrait:
>
> "......Some doctors in the US switch patients onto clonazepam (Klonopin,
> [Rivotril in Canada]), believing that it will be easier to withdraw from
> than say alprazolam (Xanax) or lorazepam (Ativan) because it is more slowly
> eliminated. However, Klonopin is far from ideal for this purpose. It is an
> extremely potent drug, is eliminated much faster than diazepam (See Table
> 1 <http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha01.htm#24>, Chapter I), and the
> smallest available tablet in the US is 0.5mg (equivalent to 10mg diazepam)
> and 0.25mg in Canada (equivalent to 5mg Valium). It is difficult with this
> drug to achieve a smooth, slow fall in blood concentration, and there is
> some evidence that withdrawal is particularly difficult from high potency
> benzodiazepines, including Klonopin. Some people, however, appear to have
> particular difficulty in switching from Klonopin to diazepam. In such cases
> it is possible to have special capsules made up containing small doses,
> e.g. an eighth or a sixteenth of a milligram or less, which can be used to
> make gradual dosage reductions straight from Klonopin. These capsules
> require a doctor's prescription and can be made up by hospital pharmacists
> and some chemists in the UK, and by compounding pharmacists in North
> America. A similar technique can be used for those on other benzodiazepines
> who find it hard to substitute diazepam. To locate a compounding pharmacist
> in the USA or Canada this web site may be useful: www.iacprx.org. Care
> must be taken to ensure that the compounding pharmacist can guarantee the
> same formula on each prescription renewal. It should be noted, however,
> that this approach to benzodiazepine withdrawal can be troublesome and is
> not recommended for general use..."
> .........
>
> As you can see, you might learn a few new things or at least consider them.
> Benzos are a VERY serious drug, it messes up the homeostasis /balance of
> the brain.
> Ah, wtf, here's another quote :)
>
> "...the body's natural tranquilliser system, mediated by the
> neurotransmitter GABA. As a result, GABA receptors in the brain reduce in
> numbers and GABA function decreases. Sudden withdrawal from benzodiazepines
> leaves the brain in a state of GABA-underactivity, resulting in
> hyperexcitability of the nervous system. This hyperexcitability is the root
> cause of most of the withdrawal symptoms discussed in the next chapter<http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha03.htm>.
> However, a sufficiently slow, and smooth, departure of benzodiazepines from
> the body permits the natural systems to regain control of the functions
> which have been damped down by their presence. There is scientific evidence
> that reinstatement of brain function takes a long time. Recovery after
> long-term benzodiazepine use is not unlike the gradual recuperation of the
> body after a major surgical operation. Healing, of body or mind, is a slow
> process..."
>
> I love quoting!
> :)
>
> Sergey
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Valarie <val.needis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The detox facility told me the fenabarbital  was for benzo withdrawal and
>> to keep me from going into a seizure, But they make you kick opiots cold
>> turkey so I didn't notice whether it helped or not.I went to this place 3x
>> and every time they took me off the fenabarbital I would have a seizure.
>> I guess that's there quick way to get someone off benzodiazepines.  But I
>> have learned it can take years to get someone 100% off benzodiazepines
>> depending on how long they have been on it. I have had been on xanex for 12
>> years before I finally switched to Colonzapam.  Colonzapam and Valium are
>> used to get people off xanex because xanex only last 4 hours. The other 2
>> last 8-12hrs.
>> I had tried switching from xanex to Colonzapam before, but the anxiety
>> was to much.
>> When I found out about Ibogaine it brought me great hope, maybe that's
>> why the switch was a lot easier, and like I said I was taking like 10-12
>> mgs of xanex and was always running out.
>> Now I am stable on 6mgs of Colonzapam and I had no seizures during the
>> switch which was about 2 month ago.
>> The first month I did run out because I had to take more then prescribed
>> my anxiety was so high. But this is now2 month 1 week later I have
>> stabilized.
>> Jim sent me something really good on detoxing from benzodiazepines. If I
>> find it I will resend it to you
>> Its really long so I printed it out, so I don't know if it's still in my
>> email. If it's not ask Jim.
>>
>> <3 Val
>> On Oct 17, 2013 5:32 PM, "Sergey Sibirian" <sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Val,
>>>
>>> Fanabarbital?
>>> It's not benzo, it's a barbiturate.
>>> Did it help? No WD from benzos?
>>> I actually never heard about substituting, Barbs for benzos, but I'm not
>>> an expert either,
>>> so its possible.
>>> Yea, like I said, benzos are by far the worst to WD...
>>> Horrible shit.
>>>
>>> :)
>>> Sergey
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Valarie <val.needis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sergie, Colonzapam is much better then xanex because it last for 12
>>>> hour not 4hrs like xanex plus it is also a seizure med. I have to take
>>>> steps down,I cannot just stop my benzodiazepines I have been on them for 12
>>>> years, and EVERYTIME I have tried to come off I have gone into a seizure.
>>>> Even after I left a 14 day treatment center they had me on fenabarbital for
>>>> 14 days The day they took me off I had a seizure.
>>>> <3 Val
>>>> On Oct 16, 2013 5:41 PM, "Sergey Sibirian" <sibirianfox at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jim,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yea...
>>>>> I've seen the movie "sicko" Michael Moore...
>>>>> I don't know if it accurately represents the US health care, but it
>>>>> seems like it does.
>>>>> That's just wrong man...
>>>>> I remember Obama tried implementing a more accessible Health system,
>>>>> which didn't work obviously.
>>>>> Too huge the money involved.
>>>>> But what struck me the most, is those f**king hordes of brainwashed
>>>>> zombies that were demonstrating AGAINST!!!
>>>>> ?????
>>>>> It's the very people that would benefit from it!!!
>>>>> Propaganda and mass-hypnose is really refining itself in US. It's
>>>>> either that or the people are getting much more stupid, I'm not sure. Maybe
>>>>> a combo.
>>>>>
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Sergey.
>>>>> Loves Canada :')
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Sergy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many people in the US do not have insurance and therefore can not go
>>>>>> to the Dr, you must wait until
>>>>>> your nearly dead then go to the emergency room at
>>>>>> the hospital.  Now for mental health problems you
>>>>>> can sometimes call your county health department
>>>>>> and get counseling for free.  Also if you get an STD
>>>>>> (sexual transmitted disease) they will want you to
>>>>>> come in for a shot or pills for they do not want you
>>>>>> spreading to others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   - JIM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 2:02 AM, Valarie <val.needis at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I should let everyone know I am on benzos so maybe that's why the
>>>>>>> anxiety wasn't that bad for me when I switched from Sub to Kratom . But
>>>>>>> since I decided to do Ibogaine 3 months ago I went from 10-12 mgs of xanex
>>>>>>> to 4-6 mgs of colonzapam.  And I feel ok. Its not BAM like xanex but it
>>>>>>> just makes me feel ok throughout the day. I also don't take more then
>>>>>>> prescribed,  where with xanex that was always happening and I had seizures
>>>>>>> because of it. Based on my experience
>>>>>>> I would recommend anyone trying to quit xanex goes to Colonzapam. Mg
>>>>>>> to Mg they are the same,
>>>>>>> <3 Val
>>>>>>>  On Oct 15, 2013 8:09 PM, "Sergey Sibirian" <sibirianfox at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hey Jim,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's funny how you mention that "AA and doctors are somewhat
>>>>>>>> close-minded..."
>>>>>>>> On the dot.
>>>>>>>> I came to the same conclusion.
>>>>>>>> I guess NA/AA have to be that way, after all they promote COMPLETE
>>>>>>>> abstinence.
>>>>>>>> Another thing I find... kind of wrong, is that even after 20-30
>>>>>>>> years of sobriety, members stilll announce themselves as "alcoholics" or
>>>>>>>> "addicts", etc...
>>>>>>>> I would personally tried to move on to another level... At least it
>>>>>>>> seems like that's what I wanted to do.
>>>>>>>> Just don't get me wrong: I DO KNOW THE GOOD SIDES OF AA, their
>>>>>>>> strong sides, the benefits of participating.
>>>>>>>> Like I said, about 90% of recovered addicts that I know are all in
>>>>>>>> AA/NA.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not even mentioning my god-damn doctor...
>>>>>>>> And it's not like he's shitty or anything... He's actually more or
>>>>>>>> less decent as a doctor and even as a human being... But I don't know what
>>>>>>>> the f**k happens to these shrinks. I mean, career happens, life happens,
>>>>>>>> age happens, I don't f**kin know. If I was a doctor and there was a
>>>>>>>> chemical compound that could reset an addict's brain, remove the
>>>>>>>> neurological part of the habit, I would go crazy about it. I would push for
>>>>>>>> research, do testing, collect experiences, maybe even do some underground
>>>>>>>> trials. But NOT JUST STUPIDLY IGNORE THE WHOLE THING!!! When I ask him
>>>>>>>> about Iboga, he makes this face like I just said a name of an actor he saw
>>>>>>>> somewhere in the end-titles a long time ago... Like "sounds vaguely
>>>>>>>> familiar, what's that shit again?"
>>>>>>>> Oh, man.....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Btw, my doctor looks like a cartoonish, fat, dark, unshaved
>>>>>>>> beaver...
>>>>>>>> Sometimes he writes the wrong month on the prescription and I get
>>>>>>>> in trouble with my pharmacist.
>>>>>>>> Or just goes on sick leave for 6 months.
>>>>>>>> Fucked up shrink, this one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What did you mean by "I am not sure if you have insurance but if
>>>>>>>> you don't you can call your country health service but that probably would
>>>>>>>> not work for I believe you live in another country so maybe they have
>>>>>>>> something similar."
>>>>>>>> Insurance for what?
>>>>>>>> I'm in Montreal, Canada.
>>>>>>>> Healthcare is free, as well as many other things. I love this
>>>>>>>> country btw.
>>>>>>>> But insurance for what?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wish you well
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 8:11 PM, Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Sergy,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I went to NA meetings about 22 years ago and it did not work; why
>>>>>>>>> I don't know.  Maybe I was not ready, maybe I could of tried harder but I
>>>>>>>>> think it was because the heroin had a Very strong hold on me.  I started
>>>>>>>>> going to meetings 2.5 yrs ago, 13 months after my Ibo detox.  It helps keep
>>>>>>>>> me clean, see besides getting off dope the idea is to change yourself,
>>>>>>>>> change your way of thinking and the friends that can endanger your
>>>>>>>>> recovery.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Maybe you and the GF can then go out and eat or whatever, kind of
>>>>>>>>> like a night out.  If your going to get clean together and live together
>>>>>>>>> you got to decide on what kind of aftercare you both like.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Many addicts are loners and do not join groups so I understand,
>>>>>>>>> kind like you feel like you don't fit in right.  I know what ya mean it can
>>>>>>>>> be kind of awkward at first but as time goes on you will learn to talk and
>>>>>>>>> get to know the people and things get better, it takes time.  It seems like
>>>>>>>>> addiction gives the slave limited options.  For example if you want to quit
>>>>>>>>> it is ct, taper or Ibo, I would say sub and met but they really do not
>>>>>>>>> count and if you do a taper you can get low but still have to do somewhat
>>>>>>>>> of a ct.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Since this is so important and you really want to quit why not
>>>>>>>>> give NA another try.  It may work better since you have a choice and the
>>>>>>>>> courts or detox center can't make you go.  I would say go to the meetings
>>>>>>>>> now so after the detox your ready and started to change your life.  NA or
>>>>>>>>> AA can help you change your life and I guess a shrink or therapist could
>>>>>>>>> also.  Choose which you want to try and make sure the GF likes it also.
>>>>>>>>>  There is little reason to mention Ibo at an NA meeting for in some
>>>>>>>>> respects they are closed minded.  Guess you could say the same about a Dr
>>>>>>>>> thinking how is some African root going to help some addict.  They forget
>>>>>>>>> that most drugs have their origin in plants.  Again go to several meetings
>>>>>>>>> and see if ya fit in.  What I am saying is do something for aftercare, it
>>>>>>>>> is very important and you want to put the odds in your favor and do all ya
>>>>>>>>> can do to have a happy life with your GF and you both live clean.  It can
>>>>>>>>> happen but you have to do your work as Ibo can not do it all by it's self.
>>>>>>>>>  Have you talked about aftercare with your GF?  You should talk to her and
>>>>>>>>> see what she would like, remember your in this together.  I am not sure if
>>>>>>>>> you have insurance but if you don't you can call your country health
>>>>>>>>> service but that probably would not work for I believe you live in another
>>>>>>>>> country so maybe they have something similar.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   - JIM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jim,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> thanks Jim.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When you say "try it now while you're using", do you mean
>>>>>>>>>> maintenance?
>>>>>>>>>> We haven't used since a year'n'half now, just Methadone and
>>>>>>>>>> Subaxone.
>>>>>>>>>> That's for opioids. For alcohol, I am Russian, but I strangely
>>>>>>>>>> hate it.
>>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>>> We do take psychedelics when going to forest festivals or other
>>>>>>>>>> "psychonaut" activities.
>>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>>> I heard many times from sober people that NA/AA are almost
>>>>>>>>>> mandatory for recovery. I don't know... I've tried, at least 3-4 times in
>>>>>>>>>> the city (thats not counting the dozens of times I've been to meetings
>>>>>>>>>> while in therapy) and it didn't stick...
>>>>>>>>>> AA seems more serious, more stable, but they are NOT junkies!
>>>>>>>>>> NA... I don't know.
>>>>>>>>>> I think I haven't found my... in french it's called "groupe
>>>>>>>>>> d'appartenance"- belonging crowd, a crowd where you "belong"...
>>>>>>>>>> I know I have to try more places. I think I'll go on the weekend.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wish you well
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 8:29 AM, Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sergey,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You say >>> For me personally, I'm terrified of relapsing or
>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise fucking up an Iboga flood.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If not Iboga, WHAT THEN!!!??? <<<
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We are all are terrified of relapsing that's why I and some of
>>>>>>>>>>> the people who stay off go to meetings and others go to CBT or whatever
>>>>>>>>>>> works.  Look at all the people on the forum who have done Ibo 4 and 5
>>>>>>>>>>> times, it doesn't always work the first time.  You got to do everything you
>>>>>>>>>>> can to stay clean.  As far as NA goes some people like it and others don't
>>>>>>>>>>> so do what works.  The NA people say go to 90 meetings in 90 days that can
>>>>>>>>>>> help.  If your going to go to NA meeting after your Ibo treatment I think
>>>>>>>>>>> that is a good idea.  It only cost a $1 and that is if you have it.  See,
>>>>>>>>>>> the Ibo gets rid of the cravings for maybe a month or so and if you start
>>>>>>>>>>> your program of going to meetings you can condition your self and insulate
>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to some degree.  It takes time getting to know people at meetings
>>>>>>>>>>> but for me it is a night on the town my version of cheers and I see people
>>>>>>>>>>> and know them and they know me; I tended to isolate a lot and it is good to
>>>>>>>>>>> get out of the house and meet people.  I have been using too long and it is
>>>>>>>>>>> time for me to stay off drugs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You seem like a decent guy, there are a lot of decent people on
>>>>>>>>>>> this forum and they try hard, some make it and some don't but you got to
>>>>>>>>>>> keep trying.  Now, as I mentioned in another post about statistics the
>>>>>>>>>>> statistics do no know if your going to meetings with your GF  or that you
>>>>>>>>>>> dumped you using friends for often an addict has no friends but drug users.
>>>>>>>>>>>  If you drink you should quit for if you get a few drinks in you you lose
>>>>>>>>>>> your inhibitions and may end up using.  It took me a long time to realize I
>>>>>>>>>>> got to change my way of thinking.  It don't come easy, you may not need
>>>>>>>>>>> outside help but it is there why not take advantage of it?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you and your GF  try a meeting sometime this week and
>>>>>>>>>>> see what they are like.  If you like it you got free therapy and the wisdom
>>>>>>>>>>> you pick up is remarkable.  Go to more that one meeting, maybe go to 2 or 3
>>>>>>>>>>> different ones and see which one you like the best.  Then go to 2 or 3 a
>>>>>>>>>>> week but try and make it a habit, go if your tired, go when your really
>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to.  It may be a good idea to try it out now while your using.
>>>>>>>>>>>  This is more important than what people realize.  If your serious about
>>>>>>>>>>> getting off drugs take your fist step now before you do you Ibo.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>   - JIM
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The article, its AWESOME!
>>>>>>>>>>>> What I particularly like, is that BOTH VIEWS are thoroughly
>>>>>>>>>>>> discussed:
>>>>>>>>>>>> -Benefits of harm reduction-maintenance programs
>>>>>>>>>>>> -and their huge minuses
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But like the author says: today it's pretty much the only
>>>>>>>>>>>> options available for the rat-race, the hell of addiction.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, we know that there's Iboga, a vicious cycle of
>>>>>>>>>>>> addiction interrupter.
>>>>>>>>>>>> But even for that magic steps need to be taken.
>>>>>>>>>>>> For me personally, I'm terrified of relapsing or otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>> fucking up an Iboga flood.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If not Iboga, WHAT THEN!!!???
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Valarie <val.needis at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I found this online. It is definitely worth reading!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Great Suboxone Debate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.thefix.com/content/best-kept-secret-addiction-treatment?page=all
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 14, 2013 12:11 PM, "junkboy" <junkboy64 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i dont know. everyone down here is abusing sub to  get high.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no matter what the paperwork says. it gets ME high as hell.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Junkboy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> About the " getting high" part, I was very curious to find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out if Sub actually gets you high.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have two people in my life whom I can ask about it and be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure the answer is not biased:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -My girl whom I live with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -and a close acquaintance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With my girl, it's clear. We experimented EVERYTHING.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Taking 80mg, different routes of delivery, etc..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does NOT get her high even a tiny bit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Compared to Methadone, where you still feel the "opiated"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effect, Sub doen't do ANYTHING for her except keep her stable, FEELING
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NORMAL and never in withdrawals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the friend, he actually switched back to Methadone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EXACTLY for those reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -he could't get any "buzz" out of sub
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -he couldn't take any other opioids coz they would not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "breakthrough" the receptor blockade
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This guy never stopped using, so these properties of Sub
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were just way too much for him.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It also makes a lot of sense knowing the pharma-dynamics of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sub (buprenorphine):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -PARTIAL AGONIST/ANTAGONIST (explains why no high as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intristic activity on the brains opioid receptors is LESS then with first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line opioids)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Extremely high affinity (force with which it attaches to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> receptors)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Ceiling effect (take 5000mg or 32mg, same effect)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Slow receptor dissociation (very slow onset of withdrawals)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just please don't confuse this post with me PROMOTING Sub.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above are MAYBE Sub's convenient points, but I'm fully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aware its a nasty long-life chemical human made, big-pharma/big money
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> substance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (you ever looked at it's chemical name/composition???
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2*S*)-2-[(5*R*,6*R*,7*R*,14*S*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> )-9α-Cyclopropylmethyl-4,5-epoxy-6,14-ethano-3-hydroxy-6-methoxymorphinan-7-yl]-3,3-dimethylbutan-2-ol)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> !!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I actually listen to what people are saying and doing lots
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of research.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are very interesting points on SUBSUX forum.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I still can't figure out exactly WHY and IF Sub is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually OBJECTIVELY more poison then any other long life shit...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I am getting the feeling it's all a matter of personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dynamics and specifics. Social, body type, recovery plan,etc...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 12:26 PM, junkboy <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> junkboy64 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why? because of all the opiates ive taken sub was damn near
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible to quit. when i got to 2mg the anxiety was so bad that i would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of cut off a finger to make it stop. it affected me a lot deeper than any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other opiate and triggered my flight or fight response. ive cold turkeyed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from a lot of opiates, and the sub was intolerable to quit. it was so damn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> horrible. i was not even using sub very long... it got me so damn high.. i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont know who says it doesnt get you high... i was high for 2 days the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first time i tried it...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Junkboy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 2:30 PM, junkboy <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> junkboy64 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what sucks the most? suboxone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sister,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, I will.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a serious interest to dig deeper into suboxone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And what better way to do it then from peoples PERSONAL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experiences?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just a remarque:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In that forum, there's also:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -OPIOIDS SUCK
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -METHADONE SUCK
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -BENZOS SUCK
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc, etc, etc....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a shame there's just no clear answer on:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *WHAT SUCKS MOST???*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Sister <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poison is not new.. Been around a long time.  You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to read how it affects addicts go to subsucks.comor opiated detox and recovery.  Read it from the mouth of those who fell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smooth journey,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sister
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mroz,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " ...with sao's again since I no longer take sub and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the high kindof sucked, like the whole things was not what it used to be..."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you explain what you mean by "not like it used to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I gathering a kind of an intuitive research still based
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of science/individual experience on what Subaxon does to peoples brains.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Very important to me: my girl's on it, and this shit is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So far so good, but how can one be sure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Long term consequences, irreversible damage, permanent brain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chemistry misbalance....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brrrr.... God forbid....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tnx!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:11 AM, L.N. Mroz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leomroz24 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yea thats me lol. Yes im so tired of the ups and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> downs, even recently after being of subs for 3 years and not really getting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high, I started messing around with sao's again since I no longer take sub
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the high kindof sucked, like the whole things was not what it used to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mroz,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hear you, though I never had to go through this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  I'm sorry Mroz, I'm still a bit confused coz there's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a lot of new names to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you the one who's going through a transition from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sub to Kratom to finally get clean with Ibogaine?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sure wish you success.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 7:25 PM, L.N. Mroz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leomroz24 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No problemo. Ya benzo is very tough to stop, I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worse than opiates, especially xanax. I did cold turkey when I moved away
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both xanax and opiates, that next day I ended up checking into the ER for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benzo withdrawal. It was the most mentally draining/tough daily battles I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ever attempted and I was clean 1 month and a few days after leaving the ER,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yet anxiety and depression was a still a problem, so I finally gave in.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although week 3 or 4 I did start to feel a little
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Benzos are BY FAR THE WORST SUBSTANCE to get off.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a lot of documented proof to that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Same as alcohol, benzos act on the GABBA receptors,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which are part of the system that is responsible for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HOMEOSTASIS of the brain, i.e. the BALANCE between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "up/stimulation" and "down/suppression" states of the brain and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consequently, the body.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've personally seen a man fall in convulsions and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being driven away in an ambulance, and another one roll down the stairs,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also driven away, but ending up in coma in a hospital. Both times during an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempted quick detox in one of those "detox therapies".  Both men were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quitting alcohol, which is the same shit as benzos, only not so bad....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's a wiki quote...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Post-acute benzodiazepine withdrawal[edit<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome&action=edit&section=4>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> See also: Benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_syndrome>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Disturbances in mental function can persist for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several months or years after withdrawal from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benzodiazepines<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_benzodiazepines>.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Psychotic depression persisting for more than a year following
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benzodiazepine withdrawal has been documented in the medical literature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The patient had no prior psychiatric history. The symptoms reported in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> patient included, major depressive disorder<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  with psychotic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotic> features,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including persistent depressed mood, poor concentration, decreased
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appetite <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appetite>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> insomnia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anhedonia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhedonia>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anergia and psychomotor retardation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychomotor_retardation>.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The patient also experienced paranoid ideation (believing she was being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poisoned and persecuted by co-employees), accompanied by sensory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hallucinations. Symptoms developed after abrupt withdrawal of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chlordiazepoxide and persisted for 14 months. Various psychiatric
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> medications were trialed which were unsuccessful in alleviating the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> symptomatology. Symptoms were completely relieved by recommending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chlordiazepoxide for irritable bowel syndrome 14 months later.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [20]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-20> Another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case report, reported similar phenomenon in a female patient who abruptly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reduced her diazepam dosage from 30 mg to 5 mg per day. She developed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electric shock sensations, depersonalisation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalisation>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> , anxiety <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiety>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dizziness <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dizziness>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> left temporal lobe EEG spiking activity,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hallucinations<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinations>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visual perceptual and sensory distortions which persisted for years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [21]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-tuobicp-21>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A clinical trial of patients taking the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benzodiazepine alprazolam (Xanax<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanax>)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for as little as 8 weeks triggered protracted symptoms of memory deficits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were still present after up to 8 weeks post cessation of alprazolam.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [22]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-22>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Treatment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [edit<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome&action=edit&section=5>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The condition gradually improves over a period of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time which can range from six months to several years in more severe cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [23]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-23>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [24]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-24>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Acamprosate<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acamprosate>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  has been found to be effective in alleviating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some of the post acute withdrawal symptoms of alcohol withdrawal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [25]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-25>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [26]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-26>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Carbamazepine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbamazepine>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  or trazodone<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trazodone>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  may also be effective in the treatment of post
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> acute withdrawal syndrome.[27]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-27>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [28]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-28>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [29]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-29>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Cognitive behavioral therapy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  can also help the post acute withdrawal syndrome
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially when cravings are a prominent feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [30]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-30>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 9:27 PM, star ray <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> earthshealing at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LN,  thanks, I missed your message  about where to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> order the phenibut and I found some on ebay, I will capsule it up.  Now my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yoga friend sent me this link:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.marsvenus.com/p/lithium-orotate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this lithium oranatate is suppose to help with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brain, depression and weaning off meds so check out this website,  It is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not that expensive  21.00 with shipping for 120 day supply. I have really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been stuggling with depression after going off valium cold turkey 3 1/2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> months ago (that has been a real nightmare but getting better)  they say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benzo's are harder to get off of than heroin..... it was not fun,  I really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know how i did it, almost as bad as sub. I must be into wanting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "complete body sensation"  that is sick in its own way for sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> peace to all ,  Star
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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