[Ibogaine] phenibut and litium orantate

Sergey Sibirian sibirianfox at gmail.com
Fri Oct 18 17:34:44 CDT 2013


Val,

*You should really check out that link Jim gives.*
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha02.htm*
*
*It is written by somebody who REALLY knows what he's talking about.*
*It's professional and detailed.*

Here's an extrait:

"......Some doctors in the US switch patients onto clonazepam (Klonopin,
[Rivotril in Canada]), believing that it will be easier to withdraw from
than say alprazolam (Xanax) or lorazepam (Ativan) because it is more slowly
eliminated. However, Klonopin is far from ideal for this purpose. It is an
extremely potent drug, is eliminated much faster than diazepam (See
Table 1<http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha01.htm#24>,
Chapter I), and the smallest available tablet in the US is 0.5mg
(equivalent to 10mg diazepam) and 0.25mg in Canada (equivalent to 5mg
Valium). It is difficult with this drug to achieve a smooth, slow fall in
blood concentration, and there is some evidence that withdrawal is
particularly difficult from high potency benzodiazepines, including
Klonopin. Some people, however, appear to have particular difficulty in
switching from Klonopin to diazepam. In such cases it is possible to have
special capsules made up containing small doses, e.g. an eighth or a
sixteenth of a milligram or less, which can be used to make gradual dosage
reductions straight from Klonopin. These capsules require a doctor's
prescription and can be made up by hospital pharmacists and some chemists
in the UK, and by compounding pharmacists in North America. A similar
technique can be used for those on other benzodiazepines who find it hard
to substitute diazepam. To locate a compounding pharmacist in the USA or
Canada this web site may be useful: www.iacprx.org. Care must be taken to
ensure that the compounding pharmacist can guarantee the same formula on
each prescription renewal. It should be noted, however, that this approach
to benzodiazepine withdrawal can be troublesome and is not recommended for
general use..."
.........

As you can see, you might learn a few new things or at least consider them.
Benzos are a VERY serious drug, it messes up the homeostasis /balance of
the brain.
Ah, wtf, here's another quote :)

"...the body's natural tranquilliser system, mediated by the
neurotransmitter GABA. As a result, GABA receptors in the brain reduce in
numbers and GABA function decreases. Sudden withdrawal from benzodiazepines
leaves the brain in a state of GABA-underactivity, resulting in
hyperexcitability of the nervous system. This hyperexcitability is the root
cause of most of the withdrawal symptoms discussed in the next
chapter<http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha03.htm>.
However, a sufficiently slow, and smooth, departure of benzodiazepines from
the body permits the natural systems to regain control of the functions
which have been damped down by their presence. There is scientific evidence
that reinstatement of brain function takes a long time. Recovery after
long-term benzodiazepine use is not unlike the gradual recuperation of the
body after a major surgical operation. Healing, of body or mind, is a slow
process..."

I love quoting!
:)

Sergey


On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Valarie <val.needis at gmail.com> wrote:

> The detox facility told me the fenabarbital  was for benzo withdrawal and
> to keep me from going into a seizure, But they make you kick opiots cold
> turkey so I didn't notice whether it helped or not.I went to this place 3x
> and every time they took me off the fenabarbital I would have a seizure.
> I guess that's there quick way to get someone off benzodiazepines.  But I
> have learned it can take years to get someone 100% off benzodiazepines
> depending on how long they have been on it. I have had been on xanex for 12
> years before I finally switched to Colonzapam.  Colonzapam and Valium are
> used to get people off xanex because xanex only last 4 hours. The other 2
> last 8-12hrs.
> I had tried switching from xanex to Colonzapam before, but the anxiety was
> to much.
> When I found out about Ibogaine it brought me great hope, maybe that's why
> the switch was a lot easier, and like I said I was taking like 10-12 mgs of
> xanex and was always running out.
> Now I am stable on 6mgs of Colonzapam and I had no seizures during the
> switch which was about 2 month ago.
> The first month I did run out because I had to take more then prescribed
> my anxiety was so high. But this is now2 month 1 week later I have
> stabilized.
> Jim sent me something really good on detoxing from benzodiazepines. If I
> find it I will resend it to you
> Its really long so I printed it out, so I don't know if it's still in my
> email. If it's not ask Jim.
>
> <3 Val
> On Oct 17, 2013 5:32 PM, "Sergey Sibirian" <sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Val,
>>
>> Fanabarbital?
>> It's not benzo, it's a barbiturate.
>> Did it help? No WD from benzos?
>> I actually never heard about substituting, Barbs for benzos, but I'm not
>> an expert either,
>> so its possible.
>> Yea, like I said, benzos are by far the worst to WD...
>> Horrible shit.
>>
>> :)
>> Sergey
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Valarie <val.needis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sergie, Colonzapam is much better then xanex because it last for 12 hour
>>> not 4hrs like xanex plus it is also a seizure med. I have to take steps
>>> down,I cannot just stop my benzodiazepines I have been on them for 12
>>> years, and EVERYTIME I have tried to come off I have gone into a seizure.
>>> Even after I left a 14 day treatment center they had me on fenabarbital for
>>> 14 days The day they took me off I had a seizure.
>>> <3 Val
>>> On Oct 16, 2013 5:41 PM, "Sergey Sibirian" <sibirianfox at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim,
>>>>
>>>> Yea...
>>>> I've seen the movie "sicko" Michael Moore...
>>>> I don't know if it accurately represents the US health care, but it
>>>> seems like it does.
>>>> That's just wrong man...
>>>> I remember Obama tried implementing a more accessible Health system,
>>>> which didn't work obviously.
>>>> Too huge the money involved.
>>>> But what struck me the most, is those f**king hordes of brainwashed
>>>> zombies that were demonstrating AGAINST!!!
>>>> ?????
>>>> It's the very people that would benefit from it!!!
>>>> Propaganda and mass-hypnose is really refining itself in US. It's
>>>> either that or the people are getting much more stupid, I'm not sure. Maybe
>>>> a combo.
>>>>
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> Sergey.
>>>> Loves Canada :')
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Sergy,
>>>>>
>>>>> Many people in the US do not have insurance and therefore can not go
>>>>> to the Dr, you must wait until
>>>>> your nearly dead then go to the emergency room at
>>>>> the hospital.  Now for mental health problems you
>>>>> can sometimes call your county health department
>>>>> and get counseling for free.  Also if you get an STD
>>>>> (sexual transmitted disease) they will want you to
>>>>> come in for a shot or pills for they do not want you
>>>>> spreading to others.
>>>>>
>>>>>   - JIM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 2:02 AM, Valarie <val.needis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I should let everyone know I am on benzos so maybe that's why the
>>>>>> anxiety wasn't that bad for me when I switched from Sub to Kratom . But
>>>>>> since I decided to do Ibogaine 3 months ago I went from 10-12 mgs of xanex
>>>>>> to 4-6 mgs of colonzapam.  And I feel ok. Its not BAM like xanex but it
>>>>>> just makes me feel ok throughout the day. I also don't take more then
>>>>>> prescribed,  where with xanex that was always happening and I had seizures
>>>>>> because of it. Based on my experience
>>>>>> I would recommend anyone trying to quit xanex goes to Colonzapam. Mg
>>>>>> to Mg they are the same,
>>>>>> <3 Val
>>>>>>  On Oct 15, 2013 8:09 PM, "Sergey Sibirian" <sibirianfox at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey Jim,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's funny how you mention that "AA and doctors are somewhat
>>>>>>> close-minded..."
>>>>>>> On the dot.
>>>>>>> I came to the same conclusion.
>>>>>>> I guess NA/AA have to be that way, after all they promote COMPLETE
>>>>>>> abstinence.
>>>>>>> Another thing I find... kind of wrong, is that even after 20-30
>>>>>>> years of sobriety, members stilll announce themselves as "alcoholics" or
>>>>>>> "addicts", etc...
>>>>>>> I would personally tried to move on to another level... At least it
>>>>>>> seems like that's what I wanted to do.
>>>>>>> Just don't get me wrong: I DO KNOW THE GOOD SIDES OF AA, their
>>>>>>> strong sides, the benefits of participating.
>>>>>>> Like I said, about 90% of recovered addicts that I know are all in
>>>>>>> AA/NA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not even mentioning my god-damn doctor...
>>>>>>> And it's not like he's shitty or anything... He's actually more or
>>>>>>> less decent as a doctor and even as a human being... But I don't know what
>>>>>>> the f**k happens to these shrinks. I mean, career happens, life happens,
>>>>>>> age happens, I don't f**kin know. If I was a doctor and there was a
>>>>>>> chemical compound that could reset an addict's brain, remove the
>>>>>>> neurological part of the habit, I would go crazy about it. I would push for
>>>>>>> research, do testing, collect experiences, maybe even do some underground
>>>>>>> trials. But NOT JUST STUPIDLY IGNORE THE WHOLE THING!!! When I ask him
>>>>>>> about Iboga, he makes this face like I just said a name of an actor he saw
>>>>>>> somewhere in the end-titles a long time ago... Like "sounds vaguely
>>>>>>> familiar, what's that shit again?"
>>>>>>> Oh, man.....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Btw, my doctor looks like a cartoonish, fat, dark, unshaved beaver...
>>>>>>> Sometimes he writes the wrong month on the prescription and I get in
>>>>>>> trouble with my pharmacist.
>>>>>>> Or just goes on sick leave for 6 months.
>>>>>>> Fucked up shrink, this one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What did you mean by "I am not sure if you have insurance but if
>>>>>>> you don't you can call your country health service but that probably would
>>>>>>> not work for I believe you live in another country so maybe they have
>>>>>>> something similar."
>>>>>>> Insurance for what?
>>>>>>> I'm in Montreal, Canada.
>>>>>>> Healthcare is free, as well as many other things. I love this
>>>>>>> country btw.
>>>>>>> But insurance for what?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wish you well
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 8:11 PM, Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Sergy,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I went to NA meetings about 22 years ago and it did not work; why I
>>>>>>>> don't know.  Maybe I was not ready, maybe I could of tried harder but I
>>>>>>>> think it was because the heroin had a Very strong hold on me.  I started
>>>>>>>> going to meetings 2.5 yrs ago, 13 months after my Ibo detox.  It helps keep
>>>>>>>> me clean, see besides getting off dope the idea is to change yourself,
>>>>>>>> change your way of thinking and the friends that can endanger your
>>>>>>>> recovery.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe you and the GF can then go out and eat or whatever, kind of
>>>>>>>> like a night out.  If your going to get clean together and live together
>>>>>>>> you got to decide on what kind of aftercare you both like.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Many addicts are loners and do not join groups so I understand,
>>>>>>>> kind like you feel like you don't fit in right.  I know what ya mean it can
>>>>>>>> be kind of awkward at first but as time goes on you will learn to talk and
>>>>>>>> get to know the people and things get better, it takes time.  It seems like
>>>>>>>> addiction gives the slave limited options.  For example if you want to quit
>>>>>>>> it is ct, taper or Ibo, I would say sub and met but they really do not
>>>>>>>> count and if you do a taper you can get low but still have to do somewhat
>>>>>>>> of a ct.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since this is so important and you really want to quit why not give
>>>>>>>> NA another try.  It may work better since you have a choice and the courts
>>>>>>>> or detox center can't make you go.  I would say go to the meetings now so
>>>>>>>> after the detox your ready and started to change your life.  NA or AA can
>>>>>>>> help you change your life and I guess a shrink or therapist could also.
>>>>>>>>  Choose which you want to try and make sure the GF likes it also.  There is
>>>>>>>> little reason to mention Ibo at an NA meeting for in some respects they are
>>>>>>>> closed minded.  Guess you could say the same about a Dr thinking how is
>>>>>>>> some African root going to help some addict.  They forget that most drugs
>>>>>>>> have their origin in plants.  Again go to several meetings and see if ya
>>>>>>>> fit in.  What I am saying is do something for aftercare, it is very
>>>>>>>> important and you want to put the odds in your favor and do all ya can do
>>>>>>>> to have a happy life with your GF and you both live clean.  It can happen
>>>>>>>> but you have to do your work as Ibo can not do it all by it's self.  Have
>>>>>>>> you talked about aftercare with your GF?  You should talk to her and see
>>>>>>>> what she would like, remember your in this together.  I am not sure if you
>>>>>>>> have insurance but if you don't you can call your country health service
>>>>>>>> but that probably would not work for I believe you live in another country
>>>>>>>> so maybe they have something similar.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   - JIM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jim,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> thanks Jim.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When you say "try it now while you're using", do you mean
>>>>>>>>> maintenance?
>>>>>>>>> We haven't used since a year'n'half now, just Methadone and
>>>>>>>>> Subaxone.
>>>>>>>>> That's for opioids. For alcohol, I am Russian, but I strangely
>>>>>>>>> hate it.
>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>> We do take psychedelics when going to forest festivals or other
>>>>>>>>> "psychonaut" activities.
>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>> I heard many times from sober people that NA/AA are almost
>>>>>>>>> mandatory for recovery. I don't know... I've tried, at least 3-4 times in
>>>>>>>>> the city (thats not counting the dozens of times I've been to meetings
>>>>>>>>> while in therapy) and it didn't stick...
>>>>>>>>> AA seems more serious, more stable, but they are NOT junkies!
>>>>>>>>> NA... I don't know.
>>>>>>>>> I think I haven't found my... in french it's called "groupe
>>>>>>>>> d'appartenance"- belonging crowd, a crowd where you "belong"...
>>>>>>>>> I know I have to try more places. I think I'll go on the weekend.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wish you well
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 8:29 AM, Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sergey,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You say >>> For me personally, I'm terrified of relapsing or
>>>>>>>>>> otherwise fucking up an Iboga flood.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If not Iboga, WHAT THEN!!!??? <<<
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We are all are terrified of relapsing that's why I and some of
>>>>>>>>>> the people who stay off go to meetings and others go to CBT or whatever
>>>>>>>>>> works.  Look at all the people on the forum who have done Ibo 4 and 5
>>>>>>>>>> times, it doesn't always work the first time.  You got to do everything you
>>>>>>>>>> can to stay clean.  As far as NA goes some people like it and others don't
>>>>>>>>>> so do what works.  The NA people say go to 90 meetings in 90 days that can
>>>>>>>>>> help.  If your going to go to NA meeting after your Ibo treatment I think
>>>>>>>>>> that is a good idea.  It only cost a $1 and that is if you have it.  See,
>>>>>>>>>> the Ibo gets rid of the cravings for maybe a month or so and if you start
>>>>>>>>>> your program of going to meetings you can condition your self and insulate
>>>>>>>>>> yourself to some degree.  It takes time getting to know people at meetings
>>>>>>>>>> but for me it is a night on the town my version of cheers and I see people
>>>>>>>>>> and know them and they know me; I tended to isolate a lot and it is good to
>>>>>>>>>> get out of the house and meet people.  I have been using too long and it is
>>>>>>>>>> time for me to stay off drugs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You seem like a decent guy, there are a lot of decent people on
>>>>>>>>>> this forum and they try hard, some make it and some don't but you got to
>>>>>>>>>> keep trying.  Now, as I mentioned in another post about statistics the
>>>>>>>>>> statistics do no know if your going to meetings with your GF  or that you
>>>>>>>>>> dumped you using friends for often an addict has no friends but drug users.
>>>>>>>>>>  If you drink you should quit for if you get a few drinks in you you lose
>>>>>>>>>> your inhibitions and may end up using.  It took me a long time to realize I
>>>>>>>>>> got to change my way of thinking.  It don't come easy, you may not need
>>>>>>>>>> outside help but it is there why not take advantage of it?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you and your GF  try a meeting sometime this week and
>>>>>>>>>> see what they are like.  If you like it you got free therapy and the wisdom
>>>>>>>>>> you pick up is remarkable.  Go to more that one meeting, maybe go to 2 or 3
>>>>>>>>>> different ones and see which one you like the best.  Then go to 2 or 3 a
>>>>>>>>>> week but try and make it a habit, go if your tired, go when your really
>>>>>>>>>> don't want to.  It may be a good idea to try it out now while your using.
>>>>>>>>>>  This is more important than what people realize.  If your serious about
>>>>>>>>>> getting off drugs take your fist step now before you do you Ibo.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   - JIM
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The article, its AWESOME!
>>>>>>>>>>> What I particularly like, is that BOTH VIEWS are thoroughly
>>>>>>>>>>> discussed:
>>>>>>>>>>> -Benefits of harm reduction-maintenance programs
>>>>>>>>>>> -and their huge minuses
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But like the author says: today it's pretty much the only
>>>>>>>>>>> options available for the rat-race, the hell of addiction.
>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, we know that there's Iboga, a vicious cycle of
>>>>>>>>>>> addiction interrupter.
>>>>>>>>>>> But even for that magic steps need to be taken.
>>>>>>>>>>> For me personally, I'm terrified of relapsing or otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>> fucking up an Iboga flood.
>>>>>>>>>>> If not Iboga, WHAT THEN!!!???
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Valarie <val.needis at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I found this online. It is definitely worth reading!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The Great Suboxone Debate
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.thefix.com/content/best-kept-secret-addiction-treatment?page=all
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 14, 2013 12:11 PM, "junkboy" <junkboy64 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> i dont know. everyone down here is abusing sub to  get high.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no matter what the paperwork says. it gets ME high as hell.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Junkboy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> About the " getting high" part, I was very curious to find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out if Sub actually gets you high.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have two people in my life whom I can ask about it and be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure the answer is not biased:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -My girl whom I live with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -and a close acquaintance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With my girl, it's clear. We experimented EVERYTHING.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Taking 80mg, different routes of delivery, etc..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does NOT get her high even a tiny bit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Compared to Methadone, where you still feel the "opiated"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effect, Sub doen't do ANYTHING for her except keep her stable, FEELING
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NORMAL and never in withdrawals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the friend, he actually switched back to Methadone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EXACTLY for those reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -he could't get any "buzz" out of sub
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -he couldn't take any other opioids coz they would not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "breakthrough" the receptor blockade
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This guy never stopped using, so these properties of Sub were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just way too much for him.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It also makes a lot of sense knowing the pharma-dynamics of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sub (buprenorphine):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -PARTIAL AGONIST/ANTAGONIST (explains why no high as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intristic activity on the brains opioid receptors is LESS then with first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line opioids)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Extremely high affinity (force with which it attaches to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> receptors)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Ceiling effect (take 5000mg or 32mg, same effect)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Slow receptor dissociation (very slow onset of withdrawals)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just please don't confuse this post with me PROMOTING Sub.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The above are MAYBE Sub's convenient points, but I'm fully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aware its a nasty long-life chemical human made, big-pharma/big money
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> substance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (you ever looked at it's chemical name/composition???
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2*S*)-2-[(5*R*,6*R*,7*R*,14*S*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> )-9α-Cyclopropylmethyl-4,5-epoxy-6,14-ethano-3-hydroxy-6-methoxymorphinan-7-yl]-3,3-dimethylbutan-2-ol)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> !!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I actually listen to what people are saying and doing lots of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> research.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are very interesting points on SUBSUX forum.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I still can't figure out exactly WHY and IF Sub is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually OBJECTIVELY more poison then any other long life shit...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I am getting the feeling it's all a matter of personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dynamics and specifics. Social, body type, recovery plan,etc...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 12:26 PM, junkboy <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> junkboy64 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why? because of all the opiates ive taken sub was damn near
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible to quit. when i got to 2mg the anxiety was so bad that i would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of cut off a finger to make it stop. it affected me a lot deeper than any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other opiate and triggered my flight or fight response. ive cold turkeyed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from a lot of opiates, and the sub was intolerable to quit. it was so damn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> horrible. i was not even using sub very long... it got me so damn high.. i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont know who says it doesnt get you high... i was high for 2 days the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first time i tried it...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Junkboy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 2:30 PM, junkboy <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> junkboy64 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what sucks the most? suboxone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sister,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, I will.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a serious interest to dig deeper into suboxone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And what better way to do it then from peoples PERSONAL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experiences?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just a remarque:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In that forum, there's also:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -OPIOIDS SUCK
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -METHADONE SUCK
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -BENZOS SUCK
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc, etc, etc....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a shame there's just no clear answer on:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *WHAT SUCKS MOST???*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Sister <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poison is not new.. Been around a long time.  You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to read how it affects addicts go to subsucks.comor opiated detox and recovery.  Read it from the mouth of those who fell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smooth journey,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sister
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mroz,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " ...with sao's again since I no longer take sub and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the high kindof sucked, like the whole things was not what it used to be..."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you explain what you mean by "not like it used to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I gathering a kind of an intuitive research still based
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of science/individual experience on what Subaxon does to peoples brains.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Very important to me: my girl's on it, and this shit is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So far so good, but how can one be sure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Long term consequences, irreversible damage, permanent brain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chemistry misbalance....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brrrr.... God forbid....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tnx!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 10:11 AM, L.N. Mroz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leomroz24 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yea thats me lol. Yes im so tired of the ups and downs,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even recently after being of subs for 3 years and not really getting high,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I started messing around with sao's again since I no longer take sub and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the high kindof sucked, like the whole things was not what it used to be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mroz,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hear you, though I never had to go through this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  I'm sorry Mroz, I'm still a bit confused coz there's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a lot of new names to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you the one who's going through a transition from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sub to Kratom to finally get clean with Ibogaine?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sure wish you success.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sergey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 7:25 PM, L.N. Mroz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leomroz24 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No problemo. Ya benzo is very tough to stop, I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worse than opiates, especially xanax. I did cold turkey when I moved away
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both xanax and opiates, that next day I ended up checking into the ER for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benzo withdrawal. It was the most mentally draining/tough daily battles I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ever attempted and I was clean 1 month and a few days after leaving the ER,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yet anxiety and depression was a still a problem, so I finally gave in.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although week 3 or 4 I did start to feel a little bit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Sergey Sibirian <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Benzos are BY FAR THE WORST SUBSTANCE to get off.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a lot of documented proof to that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Same as alcohol, benzos act on the GABBA receptors,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which are part of the system that is responsible for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HOMEOSTASIS of the brain, i.e. the BALANCE between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "up/stimulation" and "down/suppression" states of the brain and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consequently, the body.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've personally seen a man fall in convulsions and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being driven away in an ambulance, and another one roll down the stairs,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also driven away, but ending up in coma in a hospital. Both times during an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempted quick detox in one of those "detox therapies".  Both men were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quitting alcohol, which is the same shit as benzos, only not so bad....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's a wiki quote...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Post-acute benzodiazepine withdrawal[edit<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome&action=edit&section=4>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> See also: Benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_syndrome>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Disturbances in mental function can persist for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several months or years after withdrawal from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benzodiazepines<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_benzodiazepines>.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Psychotic depression persisting for more than a year following
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benzodiazepine withdrawal has been documented in the medical literature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The patient had no prior psychiatric history. The symptoms reported in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> patient included, major depressive disorder<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  with psychotic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotic> features,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including persistent depressed mood, poor concentration, decreased
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appetite <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appetite>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> insomnia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomnia>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anhedonia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhedonia>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anergia and psychomotor retardation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychomotor_retardation>.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The patient also experienced paranoid ideation (believing she was being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poisoned and persecuted by co-employees), accompanied by sensory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hallucinations. Symptoms developed after abrupt withdrawal of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chlordiazepoxide and persisted for 14 months. Various psychiatric
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> medications were trialed which were unsuccessful in alleviating the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> symptomatology. Symptoms were completely relieved by recommending
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chlordiazepoxide for irritable bowel syndrome 14 months later.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [20]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-20> Another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case report, reported similar phenomenon in a female patient who abruptly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reduced her diazepam dosage from 30 mg to 5 mg per day. She developed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electric shock sensations, depersonalisation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalisation>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> , anxiety <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiety>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dizziness <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dizziness>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> left temporal lobe EEG spiking activity,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hallucinations<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinations>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visual perceptual and sensory distortions which persisted for years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [21]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-tuobicp-21>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A clinical trial of patients taking the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benzodiazepine alprazolam (Xanax<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanax>)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for as little as 8 weeks triggered protracted symptoms of memory deficits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which were still present after up to 8 weeks post cessation of alprazolam.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [22]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-22>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Treatment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [edit<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome&action=edit&section=5>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The condition gradually improves over a period of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time which can range from six months to several years in more severe cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [23]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-23>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [24]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-24>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Acamprosate<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acamprosate>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  has been found to be effective in alleviating some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the post acute withdrawal symptoms of alcohol withdrawal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [25]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-25>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [26]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-26>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Carbamazepine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbamazepine>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  or trazodone<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trazodone>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  may also be effective in the treatment of post
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> acute withdrawal syndrome.[27]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-27>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [28]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-28>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [29]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-29>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Cognitive behavioral therapy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  can also help the post acute withdrawal syndrome
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially when cravings are a prominent feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [30]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome#cite_note-30>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 9:27 PM, star ray <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> earthshealing at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LN,  thanks, I missed your message  about where to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> order the phenibut and I found some on ebay, I will capsule it up.  Now my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yoga friend sent me this link:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.marsvenus.com/p/lithium-orotate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this lithium oranatate is suppose to help with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brain, depression and weaning off meds so check out this website,  It is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not that expensive  21.00 with shipping for 120 day supply. I have really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been stuggling with depression after going off valium cold turkey 3 1/2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> months ago (that has been a real nightmare but getting better)  they say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> benzo's are harder to get off of than heroin..... it was not fun,  I really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know how i did it, almost as bad as sub. I must be into wanting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "complete body sensation"  that is sick in its own way for sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> peace to all ,  Star
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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