[Ibogaine] Subaxone... Good, bad.... what's the point of reference???

sister sistereboga at yahoo.com
Mon Oct 14 15:08:49 CDT 2013


Read more.  If you still see sub as harm reduction then that's that.  I'm a believer of harm reduction...sub dosnt fit my criteria or even close.  Idea of harm reduction is to reduce over all harm to your body for the long term.  Only folks I hear claim sub fits in harm reduction are those who are on it or the md rxing it.

Sister

> On Oct 14, 2013, at 4:03 PM, Sergey Sibirian <sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Subsux forum,
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> I learned a few things, important details and some intuitive new info.
> But I still have absolutely no point of reference to compare SUB to... what?
> Is methadone clearly better or worse? For some.. Yes.. No...
> SAO'S? Clearly YES in some case. Clearly NO in others...
> Like I told sister: there is also a topic for METH SUCKS, BENZOS SUCK... OPIODS SUCK..
> And that's clear, drugs are hell on earth.
> But in a situation where HARM REDUCTION is prevalent, and where no mistake can be afforded, after 15 years of struggling, and like most people have lost track of life, I can see no clear answer...
> And I think its ok.
> 
> On this forum a LOT of people are clean, and looking back on their mistakes they know that the answer is in complete ABSTINENCE and SOBRIETY.
> But I'm not there yet...
> What's the road that will lead me?
> It's not a road with a single name.
> 
> Wish you well
> 
> Sergey
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 3:21 PM, Jeff G <jeffgallop at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Val
>> Did the Dr at the er know you were on or should I say off sub?
>> Just curious.
>> Hope your well
>> JeffG
>> 
>>> On Oct 14, 2013 4:31 AM, "Valarie" <val.needis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> That explains the horrible migraines I started getting just after a few weeks of being on Sub.
>>> I didn't know it was that common.
>>> When I first got off Sub, I had a migraine that was so intolerable I went to the E.R, I was about 3 days off, the doctor gave me 2mgs of IV Dilodid and then another 2mgs IV an hour later. It did not touch the headache or give me a buzz! 
>>> It couldn't break through the Sub even after 3 days!
>>> 
>>> Lotsof Love, Val
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 13, 2013 11:16 AM, "Sergey Sibirian" <sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> People,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On sister's advise, I went to the website called SUBSUX.
>>>> 
>>>> Here are two articles I find the most interesting/containing new info:
>>>> 
>>>> Pre-Induction-You are fed up with your Drug Of Choice, You have tried to quit many many times on your own, you are so fed up with the fatigue, with the scoring, you dose just kept getting higher.
>>>> 
>>>> You have heard about suboxone through a friend, read about it , your Dr. spoke to you about it- you have only been told/heard great things (You may have even been warned, but you are so fed up with your addiction you will try anything.you might even swear it will only be short term) 
>>>> 
>>>> Post-Induction- (if you get started on the right dose)
>>>> You feel GREAT, everything you imagined it would be it delivered on.. You feel normal again.(being a addict you may even experiment with a little extra just to see if you can feel better than normal) (a lot of people get started on way too high of a dose so they feel dizzy, nauseous, and get that infamous bup headache) 
>>>> 
>>>> Once you feel normal again, you have extra energy , you are no longer in that loop of addiction, things just feel awesome. This is referred to as the "honeymoon phase", you want to shout it to the world, you tell anyone how great it is.you want to turn everyone on to this fantastic new discovery.
>>>> 
>>>> Sort of like the way somebody turned us on to drugs for the first time because they thought they were great too!
>>>> 
>>>> The Reality-
>>>> While on sub, your pupils are still pinned, you ARE still taking a opioid every single day, you are still constipated all the time. Sub is really strong, and the life is so much longer that your dosing is less frequent. So your old habits are initially broken. You say to yourself, why would I want to get off this when its making me feel so good/productive.
>>>> 
>>>> The TRUTH-
>>>> You really are not as normal as you think. Your perception of the real normal was distorted by your previous drug use. In actuality you are just not as high as you were before, being a partial agonist it only gets you high to a certain level. Your perceptions, feelings, actions are just slightly distorted. If you dont believe this, give a small piece of sub to a straight person and ask them how they feel, I tried that little experiment it wont be normal 
>>>> 
>>>> The Failure-
>>>> After being on sub for a random amount of time- (usually 6months to 3 years) you begin to realize that you are beginning to feel foggy, distant, or removed. Your dosing will be needed to get out of bed, it will become your morning cup of coffee, you will plan your life around your dose, your old DOC behavioral habits will begin to revolve around the sub. normal will become disgusting.the fog will get worse and worse. Your fatigue will get more frequent. This is caused by a combination of decreased neurotransmitter production and temporary shut down of specific receptor sites.
>>>> 
>>>> Trying to stop-
>>>> Every week you swear to yourself you will start to taper, you make declarations like quitting smoking (by summer I will stop) every time you see the Dr you mention quitting or cutting back, he/she just smiles and gives you another script. You start to feel guilty about dosing around others, you realize that this is just another drug. With sub or MMT since the life is so long your brain loses this event horizon its just always high. This is one of the reasons that the wds and PAWS/Rebound are so notoriously long with longer life opioids, the receptors have shut down that naturally produce because they are unused. On sub your brain is always flooded with med. With other opioids these receptors still fire occasionally when the drug wears down, this is why wds are not as long from other drugs, and PAWS is more infrequent.
>>>> 
>>>> By RATCH
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Why is sub so much harder to get off of ? And why is UROD and Naltrexone a waste of time with sub...
>>>> And why is using regular opioids to get off sub not such a bad idea.
>>>> 
>>>> Oh and "SAO" means Short Acting Opioid ..like pain pills/morphine
>>>> 
>>>> When you do regular opioids on a daily basis, there are peaks and lows in your high. Not always detectable but present. And if you sleep longer than 4 hours a night while using opioids, chances are when you wake up you are reaching for your next dose to fight off the cusp of wd's. To fight the lack of opioids, the brain will fire aminos/proteins to try to get you to feel normal again....until your next dose. These changes gives the brain a small but noticeable point of reference on how you are supposed to feel without opioids, and that is what the slight uncomfortable feeling or slight onset of wd's is, the brain trying to regulate. This is all due to the 4 hr 1/2 life of all SAO's. Your brain still has a tiny pathway to normalcy again and will eventually find its way back to normal in a week or two for most people.
>>>> 
>>>> Now take a drug like buprenorphine (Sub) or methadone, these drugs have ridiculously long 1/2 lives, 34+ hours. So not only is the dose you just took saturating the brain for the next 34 hours, but so is the doses you took for the past week. Basically you are getting a "steady high" and the brain has no way to create a point of reference on how you are supposed to feel without opioids. (almost never slight wd's, mental stuff perhaps, but actual wd's almost never) Not only does the brain lose its way back to normalcy so to speak, but the search for normalcy, the brain firing of signals to feel good again is almost non existent... no reason with drugs that are by design made to keep you high "all the time".. So not only does the brain have no point of reference as to what "normal" without opioids feels like, but sparking up the endocrine gland/pituitary to produce the signals/proteins needed to feel good again is fucking rusty with sub or methadone...with SAO's it fires everyday!!! 
>>>> 
>>>> So when you do a treatment like UROD or Naltrexone for sub, the drug is stripped/blocked from your brain and you are no longer dependent. But your brain is still lost. You may have snuck past the initial wd's which are not only mild at best due to the agonizingly long time it takes sub to leave your body, but you will not only get hit with PAWS which are the brains search for normalcy again, but you just passed the initial mapping phase which IS the wd's that you just avoided with UROD or naltrexone to begin with.
>>>> 
>>>> For SAO's I dont see any issues except for the extreme danger and loss of life that UROD procedures have. You are getting a shortcut!
>>>> 
>>>> But with sub, you are making things much harder in the long run, because sub wd's arent the rough part. The rough part is how fucking long it takes your brain to find its way back to normal again and with UROD/Naltrexone you just passed step one.
>>>> 
>>>> This is why "switching" to SAO's is a unorthodox but productive way for people to combat long term PAWS. Its a hard concept to wrap around...getting re-addicted to the same shit I got on sub for to begin with.. which is one of the cornerstones of this website. Subsux! Why start a drug that is more trouble than its worth to begin with. Yes there are some extreme cases where damage control supersedes the long term effects, but that decision needs to be deeply considered.
>>>> 
>>>> By RATCH
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sergey
>>>> 
>>>> 
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