[Ibogaine] Please if you could assist us?

Jim Hadey3 jimhadey3 at gmail.com
Thu Mar 28 21:33:29 EDT 2013


Hi Sara,

It seems I always forget the link, it is a pdf file and I can not copy or
mail to ya but here is the link.

http://www.acpinternist.org/archives/2008/01/extra/pain_charts.pdf

Best to ya,

  - JIM



On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 6:02 PM, fallen eden <falleneden1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey I'm not fighting over it; my mind and body have been through a bit too
> much for arguments, info is agreed here. I mean to say the conversion
> calculator looked wrong to me too, (not wanting to say Whooaa... Um..) and
> the first one I couldn't load up to view. I was thinking, "Uh did I just
> see 600mg there, that.. is a bit, uh, much.. Understatement actually hmm..
> But I know and personally remember how strone bupe is, hmmm.. So what would
> I do there.."
>
> And, well it's funny here- a thought in my head was "darn figuring that
> conversion from oxycodone [re the perc you mentioned] instead would be
> easier because of how much stronger it crosses over.. But we use morphine
> and its mellowness for a reason on people even though it is so annoying to
> convert to sometimes.." I'm going to guess you probably wouldn't have felt
> morphine really like you felt the perc. I just pretty much said start small
> and increase up as need over that long metabolism time interval, that's all.
>
> Alright... thinking as to what I would personally do if I did this switch
> sitting on somebody.. (this was what I was thinking actually but hey I'm
> not there, I'm not doing it, and could tell it would be on the dr to
> literally guess just like us).. Even with that medical stamp of honour, so
> many docs and the ones that have helped any of my problems the best will
> admit that essentially, "hey, yeah we had school and we have a lot of real
> experience and standards, but the human body can be a huge mystery and we
> literally have to make a guess, just like you're guessing to help us with
> whatever is wrong. Oh, and thanks by the way for your guesses and trying to
> help us out- this is one hard job we have as doctors!"
>
> So with thinking cap on, I would wait for their first symptoms appearing
> past 24 hours, push them, use some wd meds if necessary, then start at
> around 15-30mg morphine PO (that means "orally" guys, just dr shorthand
> stuff.. My instinct reaction was 20mg) and then check response after an
> hour. I'd be hoping for something good, a cushion sort of effect, but as
> the buprenorphine leaves (like methadone how you call it poison; I dubbed
> it The Alien Monster Drug) you then begin to require more and more morphine
> (with *morphine* as the operative word, it is fickle sometimes.)
>
> Then check the time interval between dosings and dose requests, how often
> it becomes required and how often they can hold off (oh trust me sister the
> methadone ppl I have done know I pushed them reeeaally hard to ramp down,
> they hated me for it, but at the same time I just can't stand people being
> very uncomfortable and barely maintained).
>
> Then, based on response, I'd adjust things around to get the person as
> stabilized out as they can be on short acting morphine which probably won't
> be an obvious dose for 4 days, but attempt to compensate the bupe
> metabolising out so they don't end up just feeling completely awful. The
> end daily switch dose would be in say q8hr to max q6hr intervals as needed
> (that's "every 8 hours" or "every six hours" guys or I just mean a dose
> given three to four times a day. TID and QID also mean three/four times a
> day respectively, but not necessarily like clockwork right on the hour.)
> I'd want to be seeing this clocked well, tracked on the hours, basically we
> pretty much agree.
>
> One thing about higher doses, though.. We know the time interval is what
> is most important- how long they are switched off, not how much they switch
> onto. It matters perhaps far more in the psyche like you're pointing very
> correctly to. How many weeks (rather, months here) off is what matters and
> not really how much of the SAO they are on, we know that. This is the other
> argument for doing some people straight off methadone- The person feels too
> liable to go off the deep end switching back to SAOs, banging, pills,
> sniffing, smoking, [enter whatever]. So we can try to move them just off
> methadone instead, which really is possible if they're physically well
> enough to handle the strain you put them through in the process. However,
> that is seriously tricky science like I was mentioning beforeand and I
> really didn't like doing it at all.
>
> Then, the final ending dose per day total, how often they are dosed and
> amount per dose- That's all essentially an educated guess which I just
> wouldn't know off the top of my head without sitting on them, pushing them
> to wait, and slowly finding out. I call bupe "another animal" just because
> it is- and people's bodies will probably be all over the place with it,
> along with how long they've been on it.. Eh you know the variables
> involved. Oh, first btw I would want them to try a really easy rapid few
> day taper to 2mg I personally engineered a long time ago. (It completely
> messes with what we know of buprenorphine dosing, but works.)
>
> Ah I miss talking about the old science of it all and how utterly
> complicated- or not complicated- we end up making it. On the whole however,
> we're basically saying the same thing in agreement here.
> On Mar 27, 2013 4:31 AM, "sister" <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I remember when I was kicking sub i took a 5 mg perc when wd started
>>  kicking in on day 5-6 post jump.  I was only on it 6 mo but quack started
>> me on 40mgs of that poison.  Prior to sub was using about 90 meth daily and
>> banging dope on top of it.  When money avail could slam bundle a night.  I
>> was shocked I felt the perc.  God, I don't miss dope at all.  That feels
>> really good.   I always thought I was a lost cause, never would/could be as
>> content with life without it.  In fact when searching for help to get off
>> sub had two MDs tell me I will never be able to function/enjoy life without
>> dope.  Prove that wrong.....whoda thought I could go almost 4 yrs.
>>
>> Sister
>>
>> On Mar 27, 2013, at 3:58 AM, "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>
>> > the person will do it under his Doctor's care. he will do the treatment
>> a few months
>> > after, that would work better.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Start slowly and move up, though morphine is rather weak compared to
>> other
>> >> opiates and could merit near the 600mg something I got from one
>> calculator.
>> >> I'm not quite sure if that big a dose would be necessary, but as we
>> finally
>> >> figured out, buprenorphine is another animal compared to standard
>> opiates.
>> >> It is quite long lasting when stopped, so the person could slowly be
>> given
>> >> higher amounts to address withdrawal discomfort up until the 72 hour
>> mark.
>> >> This is roughly where normal opiates take effect, past the halflife and
>> >> opiate-blocking/partial agonist-antagonist mechanism of buprenorphine.
>> >>
>> >> I recall it would take at least a day to notice opiates if I wanted to
>> use
>> >> them; I would have to wait a decent while to switch off suboxone. The
>> real
>> >> switching dose won't be obvious for a good four days probably. Good
>> luck!
>> >> On Mar 26, 2013 7:46 AM, "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>>
>> >>> Thank you Gabrijela! this is very handy for a start.
>> >>>
>> >>> Sara
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> how convenient :) http://www.medcalc.com/narcotics.html but don't
>> know if
>> >>>> it's reliable...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 2013/3/26 Gabrijela <lilith.first at gmail.com>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Take a look at this table
>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sites3/Documents/814/OpiateConversionDoses%5BFinal%5DNov2010.pdf
>> >>>>> I found it helpful some time ago...
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Good luck!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Gabrijela
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 2013/3/26 Sara Glatt <sara119 at xs4all.nl>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> we would like to know to which amount of Morphine a person should
>> swap
>> >>> to
>> >>>>>> if he is on 4mg of Suboxone?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> have any idea and you could help?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thanks in Advance!
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Sara Glatt
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
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