[Ibogaine] 18-MC Clinical trials.

Matt S. ibogamail at gmail.com
Sun Dec 22 18:45:59 CST 2013


Hi Chris

Slipstream responded to your post with this: 
http://www.mindvox.com/pg/post/8510

Matt

On 12/22/2013 9:24 AM, Chris Jenks wrote:
>
>   Dear Sergey,
>
>   I went to check the site you suggested, but on loading the home page 
> says:
>
> http://ibogamind.com/ is marked private by its owner. If you were 
> invited to view this site, please log in below.
>
>   Yours,
>
>     Chris
>
> On Mon, 16 Dec 2013, Sergey Sibirian wrote:
>
>> Chris,
>>
>> Thank you very much.
>> You seem to have deep knowledge in the field,
>> I always had high respect to people who specialize in what they do.
>>
>> There is a website,
>> Ibogamind.com
>> I found it to contain a lot of science-oriented info, links, trial 
>> publications, etc..
>> Have you seen it?
>> If not, maybe it'll be interesting to you.
>>
>> Happy holidays and all the best in upcoming 2014.
>> Sergey
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 7:21 AM, Chris Jenks <chris at jenks.us> wrote:
>>
>>         Dear Sergey,
>>
>>         I figured you would ask about that (the shift in 
>> ibogamine/ibogaline ratio), since it was the most complicated part of 
>> what I
>>       wrote. So I had to go crunch some more numbers to give a 
>> comparison between TA and PTA:
>>
>>                       TA                     PTA
>>       Ibogaine       23.5%                   89%
>>       Ibogaline      3.7%                     9%
>>       Ibogamine      1.7%                     2%
>>       Voacangine     1.7%                Not detected
>>
>>         Keep in mind that the composition will vary between batches, 
>> and the figures above are a snapshot of one arbitrarily selected
>>       commercial batch. This is especially a problem with TA which 
>> can have 50% more active alkaloid than the sample above and lead to
>>       a stronger experience than intended. So little is known about 
>> the human pharmacology of the first three substances that they may
>>       as well be considered equivalent, based on their similarity in 
>> structure, until more data is in. But if they do have a different
>>       effect than ibogaine, this will be reflected in the action of 
>> TA vs. PTA at an equivalent (3:1) dose because the ratio (3.7:1.7
>>       vs. 9:2) and relative percentage (19% vs. 11%) of the minor 
>> alkaloids are different.
>>
>>         Voacangine caused signs of gastrointestinal distress at 200 
>> mg, which would require 12 grams of TA (an overdose) in this case
>>       to deliver. There may be some adverse effect from 1/4 to 1/3 
>> this dose though.
>>
>>         Regarding 18-MC - as I've suggested before, since 18-MC 
>> contains the same carbomethoxy group which distinguishes voacangine
>>       from ibogaine, I am not as optimistic as its developers that 
>> 18-MC will be effective for treating addiction in human as it and
>>       voacangine were in animal studies.
>>
>>         Yours,
>>
>>           Chris
>>
>>       On Sun, 15 Dec 2013, Sergey Sibirian wrote:
>>
>>       Chris,
>>
>>       I just learned a whole bunch of basics about different Ibo 
>> preparations,
>>       that's on top of everything I've been asking lately.
>>
>>       A question:
>>       When you say:
>>       "...When TA is refined into PTA HCl, most of the voacangine is 
>> removed, and the ratio of ibogaline to ibogamine increases,
>>       although their
>>       absolute percentage decreases..."
>>
>>       What exactly do you mean?
>>       If you're comparing the ratios, the reflex is that you may have 
>> a preference...
>>       Ibogaline to Ibogamine.
>>       You further state the Ibogaline is psychoactive and Ibogamine 
>> seems to have anti-addictive properties, does it mean one
>>       should look for a
>>       higher Ibogamine to Ibogaline ratio in a solution?
>>
>>       Also, how about MC-18?
>>       There is a pharma manufacturer lab that sells it online, but 
>> the cost is in thousands of dollars for a minimum effective
>>       dose....
>>
>>       I just listened to Bob Sisko on you-tube (GMP and Ibogaine) and 
>> found out there is a manufacturer of pure HCL right here
>>       where I live,
>>       Phytostan Entreprises Ltd, that is in Montreal, Canada.
>>       Wow, I'm having funny thoughts.... :D
>>
>>       Happy holidays.
>>       Sergey
>>
>>
>>       On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Chris Jenks <chris at jenks.us> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>               Dear Jim,
>>
>>               I know I'm not the only person who has tried to develop 
>> iboga extraction techniques, but as far as I know there is
>>       really very
>>             little variety available in terms of iboga products, as 
>> aside from whatever hospitals Bob Sisko elects to sell his
>>             Voacanga-derived ibogaine hydrochloride to, the products 
>> available to the rest of us are:
>>
>>               Iboga root bark
>>               Iboga Total Alkaloid (TA)
>>               Iboga Purified Total Alkaloid hydrochloride (PTA HCl)
>>
>>               The last two terms above (TA and PTA) are from my 
>> extraction procedure published in 2002
>> (http://puzzlepiece.org/ibogaine/literature/jenks2002.pdf). If anyone 
>> knows of a fundamentally different procedure
>>       being used to
>>             deliver iboga products to the current market I would like 
>> to know about it. As far as I know, everything people have
>>       been taking
>>             so far has been produced using this basic procedure.
>>
>>               TA is a brown powder of alkaloid base which contains 
>> 30% to 50% active iboga alkaloids, namely ibogaine, ibogaline
>>       and
>>             ibogamine. There is also a little voacangine which can 
>> make people feel ill if taken in large amounts, but I'm not
>>       sure anyone
>>             would take enough TA to get negative effects from the 
>> voacangine. The TA contains all the active alkaloids, and
>>       voacangine, from
>>             the bark in a similar ratio, so the effects of TA should 
>> be similar to those of root bark.
>>
>>               When TA is refined into PTA HCl, most of the voacangine 
>> is removed, and the ratio of ibogaline to ibogamine
>>       increases,
>>             although their absolute percentage decreases. PTA HCl 
>> seems to be almost entirely composed of ibogaine, with the
>>       latest analysis
>>             giving a composition of around 89% ibogaine, 9% ibogaline 
>> and 2% ibogamine as the identifiable components of PTA. So
>>       the
>>             impression Bob Sisko gave at his recent 
>> (http://puzzlepiece.org/ibogaine/conference_2010/sisko_presentation.flv,
>> http://puzzlepiece.org/ibogaine/gita_conference_2012/bob_sisko.pdf - 
>> this link has been broken for the last year, I
>>       just fixed
>>             it thanks to this email) conference presentations, that 
>> the properties of the iboga alkaloids besides ibogaine are a
>>       big
>>             unknown, was overstated to some extent. Ibogaline is 
>> known to be psychoactive in humans and ibogamine is known to be
>>             antiaddictive in animals, and both are very similar to 
>> ibogaine in structure, so there is no reason I know of to
>>       conclude that
>>             PTA HCl is pharmacologically inferior to pure ibogaine HCl.
>>
>>               This is not to say that all iboga products on the 
>> market are as safe as pure iboga bark, TA, PTA or ibogaine.
>>       Processing and
>>             storage of these products can lead to air oxidation of 
>> the alkaloids, producing new compounds which may have
>>       pharmacological
>>             properties completely unlike those of ibogaine. I suspect 
>> that some such substance may account for additional nausea
>>       caused by
>>             some iboga products, and I hope someday that it can be 
>> identified and screened. Furthermore, the declining natural
>>       population
>>             and high value of iboga has led to root shipments 
>> containing other species of plant and other adulterants which can
>>       contaminate
>>             the iboga products dervived from them with unlimited 
>> possible substances. The solutions I see being developed for
>>       this problem
>>             include the sustainable cultivation of iboga, the use of 
>> Voacanga species, and analysis services for iboga products.
>>
>>               Yours,
>>
>>                 Chris
>>
>>             On Sat, 14 Dec 2013, Jim Hadey3 wrote:
>>
>>             Hi,
>>
>>             DIY is do it yourself.  Of course that does not mean all 
>> by yourself you really should have a sitter.
>>
>>             TA  is the Total Alkaloids which contain roughly half 
>> Ibogaine and half other alkaloids.  OK for boosters but Very
>>       rough
>>             on the system if
>>             you take 20 grams and try to detox.
>>
>>             PA  is Precipitated Alkaloids which is stronger than the 
>> TA and can sometimes be used in place of the HCL.  It has
>>       been
>>             said that it can be
>>             used in a mg to mg basis meaning it can be as strong as 
>> the HCL like maybe 90%.
>>
>>             @Junkboy,
>>
>>             If you were to detox would you take the HCL, TA or PA?
>>
>>             Just curious.
>>
>>             @ Val
>>
>>             Send your buds this link and see if they can get on.  I 
>> kind of remember getting on about 12 or so years ago, kinda
>>             strange.
>>
>>             http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
>>
>>             Best to all,
>>
>>               - JIM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>             On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 10:06 AM, danielle 
>> <danielle6175 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>                   Okay; I understood what you said except for: What a 
>> DIY?  ...and a TA?  (please don't be annoyed)
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 
>>
>>
>>       _
>>       From: sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com>
>>       To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>       Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 5:42 AM
>>       Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 18-MC Clinical trials.
>>
>>       Yes it shows on EKG.  Dosn't actually mean a abn. EKG if 
>> asymptomatic.  I watched three floods with continuos monitoring.
>>         All
>>       three
>>       had arrhythmia's, all three had a time of longer qt intervals 
>> (about12-16 hours in).  All three did convert back to
>>       baseline at
>>       the
>>       20-36 hour, some after 72 hours. All three began with ekgs that 
>> were perfect.  If one of them qt was longer then should
>>       have
>>       been
>>       prior or had another substance in system that could 
>> contribute...I fear death would of been end result.  Healthy will
>>       compensate.  If
>>       too compromised the body can not compensate fast enough, crash 
>> is eminent.
>>
>>       I was much more confident prior to seeing these three floods on 
>> a cardiac monitor.  Since these experiences I've tighten
>>       up on
>>       my
>>       safety standards, My screening, my explanation to client and 
>> honesty of risk. Bought aed, o2, more emergecy meds.
>>
>>       I know providers that don't even know how to take blood 
>> pressures or know what's normal hr is, don't recognize an irreg
>>       heart
>>       rate if
>>       it slapped them in the face.  So no, all "clinics" do not 
>> monitor or have any medical back up around.  Many do. I know
>>       providers
>>       who
>>       don't have any emergency equipment, no emergency training. 
>>  Hell, some using dope themselves but need to make a living and
>>       choose to
>>       do this or continues too.  I know when I was using if I was in 
>> a dark room for 10-36 hours I'd be nodded out for sure.
>>        Hell,
>>       wouldn't
>>       last 4 hours.  Hard enough treating someone clean.
>>       I know of deaths that didn't make the research...they are 
>> hidden. Some get out to public, some don't.  I am sure there are
>>       many
>>       deaths
>>       I'm not aware of that others know about.
>>
>>       No, a defib/aed does not correct qt, only converts v-fib, 
>> asystoli, etc.  Only way I am aware to treat qt's too long is
>>       with a
>>       pacemaker.   I know of a case that the man was being paced a 
>> week later in ICU after a dyi and following suggestion of
>>       those who
>>       don't
>>       understand cardiac, instructed on doses, told to do rectal 
>> dosing I think.  Not sure if he lived as I choose not to get
>>       involved
>>       since
>>       he was in hospital. Wasn't involved from the get. Nothing more 
>> to contribute to help him really anyways.  He was where
>>       he
>>       should be
>>       if any chance to survive at all.
>>
>>       Blows me away how quick folks will tell another they have not 
>> assessed, seen EKG, know their medical history or even met
>>       in
>>       person yet
>>       giving instructions on how to do a flood.
>>       There are very few I'd let flood me. Didn't feel this way till 
>> I sat with a few myself.  I sorta wished I was not aware of
>>       dangers,
>>       what really happens cardiac wise.  Now I do know I get no 
>> reprieve.  Not that ignorance is blessed, maybe bliss.
>>
>>       So I won't get involved with diy's.  I'm sure being a RN I'd be 
>> held to a different standard then non medical.  Plus...I
>>       feel we
>>       are
>>       all have worth.    I've stopped correcting all the 
>> misinformation.  Dosnt change anything anyways.  I've written a few who
>>       I
>>       know do
>>       give Bad instructions, nothing changed.  Not even a response 
>> back.  Do I feel we should have the right to put what we want
>>       in
>>       our own
>>       bodies, yes I do.  At your own risk though.  Shouldn't be 
>> bringing another down with them.
>>       Even when info's been given by those who are respected involved 
>> with plant, see same shit being said.   At ibo conference
>>       it was
>>       said
>>       that ta is not a good choice for addiction.  I think the term 
>> they used was "dirty".  Yet still being sold to laymen,
>>       instruction
>>       including ta along with Hcl at doses that freak me out.  Even 
>> here, where most are involved, aware.  But they're not
>>       present.
>>        Death
>>       happens they are not responsible.  No sweat off them.
>>       I would hope that if one chooses to give "how too" advice they 
>> take the responsibility to know what they are talking
>>       about.  At
>>       least
>>       know what info is out there.  Here these MD's take the time to 
>> give presentation (for free) maybe wise to listen?  I get
>>       not
>>       paying
>>       attention to me, I'm just a nurse.
>>
>>       Very happy these clinical trials are being done.  Maybe save 
>> some lives.  I'm one that does hope this tool eventually is
>>       in the
>>       hands
>>       of medically trained personal.  Unlike what I hear from some..I 
>> do want this legal in the USA and done in a real clinical
>>       setting.  I
>>       hope I see it in my lifetime.  I'll be the first to fill out 
>> app for the job.
>>       Sister
>>
>>       On Dec 11, 2013, at 11:04 PM, Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>             Hi Sis,
>>
>>       If a person has a prolonged qt would it be detected during a 
>> normal EKG?  If it goes too low will a defib help?  Do most
>>       places
>>       monitor it during detox?
>>
>>       Just Curious,
>>
>>         - JIM
>>
>>
>>
>>       On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 10:05 PM, sister 
>> <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>             Qt intervals part of cardiac electrical current  The P Q 
>> R S T waves.  Prolong qt interval is the time it takes from
>>             q wave to t wave.  I would draw one but not that savvy on 
>> pc.  I know you've seen it some where.
>>
>>       I don't know what else to say but the plant iboga does not 
>> knock opiates off the receptor.  For instance, the substance
>>       Narcan will push the opiate off the receptor.
>>
>>       Adding ibogaine on top of methadone and many other 
>> meds/substance can cause the time from q wave to t wave slow to point
>>       of death.  Hopefully ones lucky enough to get treated before 
>> death.  Treatment as far as I know is to pace the heart
>>       mechanically.
>>       Does this clarify?
>>       Sister
>>
>>       On Dec 11, 2013, at 3:50 PM, Sergey Sibirian 
>> <sibirianfox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>             Sister,
>>
>>       Can you you please do me (and others I assume) a favour
>>       and re-write that post in English?
>>       IN ENGLISH.
>>
>>       I'm asking not to be hard or whatnot, but coz I want to know 
>> your opinion on
>>       this matter.
>>
>>       What exactly is "prolonged QT"?
>>
>>       Then, the following sentence makes no sense TO ME, I don't know 
>> about others...
>>       "...Second reason... Long acting, ibo does not push opiated off 
>> receptor site.  So how effective of you want tx to
>>       be?
>>
>>       I know no one ask but sorta sensitive about this , I lost a 
>> friend for her inpatients, misinformation given to her
>>       about safety of mixing the two substances.  Unnessasary death.   "
>>
>>       Which "two substances"?
>>
>>       Peace
>>
>>       Sergey
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>       On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> 
>> wrote:
>>             Well.. My take is this .  We KNOW methadone has high 
>> potential to prolong qt.  it's documented by way
>>             too many studies.  As an er nurse seen many times 
>> methadone addicts coming in complaining of sudden
>>             onset of severe tiredness, weakness etc.  On assessment 
>> new med added.    Then do EKG and find prolong
>>             qt.  what ever new med stopped.  We also know ibogaine 
>> can also prolong qt, So increasing risk for
>>             death.
>>       Second reason... Long acting, ibo does not push opiated off 
>> receptor site.  So how effective of you want tx to
>>       be?
>>
>>       I know no one ask but sorta sensitive about this , I lost a 
>> friend for her inpatients, misinformation given to
>>       her about safety of mixing the two substances.  Unnessasary death.
>>
>>       Smooth journey,Sister
>>
>>       On Dec 10, 2013, at 5:20 PM, junkboy <junkboy64 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>             sub is worse the methadone in my opinion.
>>
>>
>>       On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Annette Dilucchio 
>> <dilucch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>             Just wanted to share this response I rec'd when I 
>> volunteered myself as a subject in the
>>             clinical trials scheduled to begin next month on 18-MC. 
>>  From what I make of it, the
>>             participants who will determine the safety of this drug 
>> for addiction will not be in active
>>             addiction but rather healthy individuals who've agreed to 
>> take the medication in order to
>>             document the resulting physical side effects.
>>
>>       As for me, Danielle thank you once again for your always 
>> comical and well thought out input on my
>>       circumstances. I got called into work for my mom last minute 
>> yesterday so my Dr.'s Appt has been
>>       rescheduled  for Thursday. Which gives me time to think about 
>> how to get something useful out of
>>       my visit. O-o  I got another month of methadone which knowing 
>> what I know now feels more like a
>>       sentence of doom than any kind of relief. I cannot believe I've 
>> signed on for another month of
>>       this unforgiving poison. Does suboxone do what methadone does 
>> to your tolerance of opiates? Or
>>       does it just HANG AROUND FOR 3 months??? I cannot decide which 
>> is the lesser of these two evils.
>>       Why doesn't David Graham mention Short-Acting Opiates in his 
>> successful ibogaine EXP? Anyhoo- hope
>>       all is well.
>>
>>       Sincerely-  Annette
>>
>>       Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>       Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>       From: Stephen Hurst <slhurst at savanthwp.com>
>>       Date: December 9, 2013 at 3:43:20 PM PST
>>       To: Annette Dilucchio <dilucch at gmail.com>
>>       Subject: Re: Clinical trials.
>>
>>       Dear Annette,
>>
>>       Thank you for your interest in Savant HWP and our
>>       addiction medicine project.  Unfortunately, it will be a while 
>> before
>>       18-MC is available to patients in the US.  Human studies begin 
>> early next
>>       year but the initial trials will be in healthy volunteers in an 
>> effort to
>>       determine safe dosage levels before treating patients.  Our first
>>       obligation is to be sure the drug is not harmful and it will 
>> take at least
>>       a
>>       year to establish safety before treating patients.  I encourage 
>> you to
>>       check our website from time to time where we will post 
>> information about
>>       clinical trials as it becomes available.  In the meantime, we 
>> wish you all
>>       the best in your recovery efforts.
>>
>>
>>       Regards,
>>
>>       Steve
>>
>>
>>       Stephen L. Hurst, JD
>>       President & CEO
>>       Savant HWP, Inc.
>>       655 Skyway Road, Suite 212
>>       San Carlos, CA 94070
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>       --
>>       Wish you well[IMAGE]
>>
>>       Sergey
>>
>>
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>>       --
>> Wish you well[IMAGE]
>>
>> Sergey
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
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