[Ibogaine] 18-MC Clinical trials.

Sergey Sibirian sibirianfox at gmail.com
Mon Dec 16 16:08:15 CST 2013


Chris,

Thank you very much.
You seem to have deep knowledge in the field,
I always had high respect to people who specialize in what they do.

There is a website,
Ibogamind.com
I found it to contain a lot of science-oriented info, links, trial
publications, etc..
Have you seen it?
If not, maybe it'll be interesting to you.

Happy holidays and all the best in upcoming 2014.
Sergey


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 7:21 AM, Chris Jenks <chris at jenks.us> wrote:

>
>   Dear Sergey,
>
>   I figured you would ask about that (the shift in ibogamine/ibogaline
> ratio), since it was the most complicated part of what I wrote. So I had to
> go crunch some more numbers to give a comparison between TA and PTA:
>
>                 TA                     PTA
> Ibogaine       23.5%                   89%
> Ibogaline      3.7%                     9%
> Ibogamine      1.7%                     2%
> Voacangine     1.7%                Not detected
>
>   Keep in mind that the composition will vary between batches, and the
> figures above are a snapshot of one arbitrarily selected commercial batch.
> This is especially a problem with TA which can have 50% more active
> alkaloid than the sample above and lead to a stronger experience than
> intended. So little is known about the human pharmacology of the first
> three substances that they may as well be considered equivalent, based on
> their similarity in structure, until more data is in. But if they do have a
> different effect than ibogaine, this will be reflected in the action of TA
> vs. PTA at an equivalent (3:1) dose because the ratio (3.7:1.7 vs. 9:2) and
> relative percentage (19% vs. 11%) of the minor alkaloids are different.
>
>   Voacangine caused signs of gastrointestinal distress at 200 mg, which
> would require 12 grams of TA (an overdose) in this case to deliver. There
> may be some adverse effect from 1/4 to 1/3 this dose though.
>
>   Regarding 18-MC - as I've suggested before, since 18-MC contains the
> same carbomethoxy group which distinguishes voacangine from ibogaine, I am
> not as optimistic as its developers that 18-MC will be effective for
> treating addiction in human as it and voacangine were in animal studies.
>
>   Yours,
>
>     Chris
>
>
> On Sun, 15 Dec 2013, Sergey Sibirian wrote:
>
>  Chris,
>>
>> I just learned a whole bunch of basics about different Ibo preparations,
>> that's on top of everything I've been asking lately.
>>
>> A question:
>> When you say:
>> "...When TA is refined into PTA HCl, most of the voacangine is removed,
>> and the ratio of ibogaline to ibogamine increases, although their
>> absolute percentage decreases…"
>>
>> What exactly do you mean?
>> If you're comparing the ratios, the reflex is that you may have a
>> preference…
>> Ibogaline to Ibogamine.
>> You further state the Ibogaline is psychoactive and Ibogamine seems to
>> have anti-addictive properties, does it mean one should look for a
>> higher Ibogamine to Ibogaline ratio in a solution?
>>
>> Also, how about MC-18?
>> There is a pharma manufacturer lab that sells it online, but the cost is
>> in thousands of dollars for a minimum effective dose….
>>
>> I just listened to Bob Sisko on you-tube (GMP and Ibogaine) and found out
>> there is a manufacturer of pure HCL right here where I live,
>> Phytostan Entreprises Ltd, that is in Montreal, Canada.
>> Wow, I'm having funny thoughts…. :D
>>
>> Happy holidays.
>> Sergey
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Chris Jenks <chris at jenks.us> wrote:
>>
>>         Dear Jim,
>>
>>         I know I'm not the only person who has tried to develop iboga
>> extraction techniques, but as far as I know there is really very
>>       little variety available in terms of iboga products, as aside from
>> whatever hospitals Bob Sisko elects to sell his
>>       Voacanga-derived ibogaine hydrochloride to, the products available
>> to the rest of us are:
>>
>>         Iboga root bark
>>         Iboga Total Alkaloid (TA)
>>         Iboga Purified Total Alkaloid hydrochloride (PTA HCl)
>>
>>         The last two terms above (TA and PTA) are from my extraction
>> procedure published in 2002
>>       (http://puzzlepiece.org/ibogaine/literature/jenks2002.pdf). If
>> anyone knows of a fundamentally different procedure being used to
>>       deliver iboga products to the current market I would like to know
>> about it. As far as I know, everything people have been taking
>>       so far has been produced using this basic procedure.
>>
>>         TA is a brown powder of alkaloid base which contains 30% to 50%
>> active iboga alkaloids, namely ibogaine, ibogaline and
>>       ibogamine. There is also a little voacangine which can make people
>> feel ill if taken in large amounts, but I'm not sure anyone
>>       would take enough TA to get negative effects from the voacangine.
>> The TA contains all the active alkaloids, and voacangine, from
>>       the bark in a similar ratio, so the effects of TA should be similar
>> to those of root bark.
>>
>>         When TA is refined into PTA HCl, most of the voacangine is
>> removed, and the ratio of ibogaline to ibogamine increases,
>>       although their absolute percentage decreases. PTA HCl seems to be
>> almost entirely composed of ibogaine, with the latest analysis
>>       giving a composition of around 89% ibogaine, 9% ibogaline and 2%
>> ibogamine as the identifiable components of PTA. So the
>>       impression Bob Sisko gave at his recent (http://puzzlepiece.org/
>> ibogaine/conference_2010/sisko_presentation.flv,
>>       http://puzzlepiece.org/ibogaine/gita_conference_2012/bob_sisko.pdf- this link has been broken for the last year, I just fixed
>>       it thanks to this email) conference presentations, that the
>> properties of the iboga alkaloids besides ibogaine are a big
>>       unknown, was overstated to some extent. Ibogaline is known to be
>> psychoactive in humans and ibogamine is known to be
>>       antiaddictive in animals, and both are very similar to ibogaine in
>> structure, so there is no reason I know of to conclude that
>>       PTA HCl is pharmacologically inferior to pure ibogaine HCl.
>>
>>         This is not to say that all iboga products on the market are as
>> safe as pure iboga bark, TA, PTA or ibogaine. Processing and
>>       storage of these products can lead to air oxidation of the
>> alkaloids, producing new compounds which may have pharmacological
>>       properties completely unlike those of ibogaine. I suspect that some
>> such substance may account for additional nausea caused by
>>       some iboga products, and I hope someday that it can be identified
>> and screened. Furthermore, the declining natural population
>>       and high value of iboga has led to root shipments containing other
>> species of plant and other adulterants which can contaminate
>>       the iboga products dervived from them with unlimited possible
>> substances. The solutions I see being developed for this problem
>>       include the sustainable cultivation of iboga, the use of Voacanga
>> species, and analysis services for iboga products.
>>
>>         Yours,
>>
>>           Chris
>>
>>       On Sat, 14 Dec 2013, Jim Hadey3 wrote:
>>
>>       Hi,
>>
>>       DIY is do it yourself.  Of course that does not mean all by
>> yourself you really should have a sitter.
>>
>>       TA  is the Total Alkaloids which contain roughly half Ibogaine and
>> half other alkaloids.  OK for boosters but Very rough
>>       on the system if
>>       you take 20 grams and try to detox.
>>
>>       PA  is Precipitated Alkaloids which is stronger than the TA and can
>> sometimes be used in place of the HCL.  It has been
>>       said that it can be
>>       used in a mg to mg basis meaning it can be as strong as the HCL
>> like maybe 90%.
>>
>>       @Junkboy,
>>
>>       If you were to detox would you take the HCL, TA or PA?
>>
>>       Just curious.
>>
>>       @ Val
>>
>>       Send your buds this link and see if they can get on.  I kind of
>> remember getting on about 12 or so years ago, kinda
>>       strange.
>>
>>       http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html
>>
>>       Best to all,
>>
>>         - JIM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>       On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 10:06 AM, danielle <
>> danielle6175 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>             Okay; I understood what you said except for: What a DIY?
>>  ...and a TA?  (please don't be annoyed)
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> ___________________
>> _
>> From: sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com>
>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 5:42 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] 18-MC Clinical trials.
>>
>> Yes it shows on EKG.  Dosn't actually mean a abn. EKG if asymptomatic.  I
>> watched three floods with continuos monitoring.   All
>> three
>> had arrhythmia's, all three had a time of longer qt intervals (about12-16
>> hours in).  All three did convert back to baseline at
>> the
>> 20-36 hour, some after 72 hours. All three began with ekgs that were
>> perfect.  If one of them qt was longer then should have
>> been
>> prior or had another substance in system that could contribute...I fear
>> death would of been end result.  Healthy will
>> compensate.  If
>> too compromised the body can not compensate fast enough, crash is
>> eminent.
>>
>> I was much more confident prior to seeing these three floods on a cardiac
>> monitor.  Since these experiences I've tighten up on
>> my
>> safety standards, My screening, my explanation to client and honesty of
>> risk. Bought aed, o2, more emergecy meds.
>>
>> I know providers that don't even know how to take blood pressures or know
>> what's normal hr is, don't recognize an irreg heart
>> rate if
>> it slapped them in the face.  So no, all "clinics" do not monitor or have
>> any medical back up around.  Many do. I know providers
>> who
>> don't have any emergency equipment, no emergency training.  Hell, some
>> using dope themselves but need to make a living and
>> choose to
>> do this or continues too.  I know when I was using if I was in a dark
>> room for 10-36 hours I'd be nodded out for sure.  Hell,
>> wouldn't
>> last 4 hours.  Hard enough treating someone clean.
>> I know of deaths that didn't make the research...they are hidden. Some
>> get out to public, some don't.  I am sure there are many
>> deaths
>> I'm not aware of that others know about.
>>
>> No, a defib/aed does not correct qt, only converts v-fib, asystoli, etc.
>>  Only way I am aware to treat qt's too long is with a
>> pacemaker.   I know of a case that the man was being paced a week later
>> in ICU after a dyi and following suggestion of those who
>> don't
>> understand cardiac, instructed on doses, told to do rectal dosing I
>> think.  Not sure if he lived as I choose not to get involved
>> since
>> he was in hospital. Wasn't involved from the get.   Nothing more to
>> contribute to help him really anyways.  He was where he
>> should be
>> if any chance to survive at all.
>>
>> Blows me away how quick folks will tell another they have not assessed,
>> seen EKG, know their medical history or even met in
>> person yet
>> giving instructions on how to do a flood.
>> There are very few I'd let flood me. Didn't feel this way till I sat with
>> a few myself.  I sorta wished I was not aware of
>> dangers,
>> what really happens cardiac wise.  Now I do know I get no reprieve.  Not
>> that ignorance is blessed, maybe bliss.
>>
>> So I won't get involved with diy's.  I'm sure being a RN I'd be held to a
>> different standard then non medical.  Plus...I feel we
>> are
>> all have worth.    I've stopped correcting all the misinformation.  Dosnt
>> change anything anyways.  I've written a few who I
>> know do
>> give Bad instructions, nothing changed.  Not even a response back.  Do I
>> feel we should have the right to put what we want in
>> our own
>> bodies, yes I do.  At your own risk though.  Shouldn't be bringing
>> another down with them.
>> Even when info's been given by those who are respected involved with
>> plant, see same shit being said.   At ibo conference it was
>> said
>> that ta is not a good choice for addiction.  I think the term they used
>> was "dirty".  Yet still being sold to laymen,
>> instruction
>> including ta along with Hcl at doses that freak me out.  Even here, where
>> most are involved, aware.  But they're not present.
>>  Death
>> happens they are not responsible.  No sweat off them.
>> I would hope that if one chooses to give "how too" advice they take the
>> responsibility to know what they are talking about.  At
>> least
>> know what info is out there.  Here these MD's take the time to give
>> presentation (for free) maybe wise to listen?  I get not
>> paying
>> attention to me, I'm just a nurse.
>>
>> Very happy these clinical trials are being done.  Maybe save some lives.
>>  I'm one that does hope this tool eventually is in the
>> hands
>> of medically trained personal.  Unlike what I hear from some..I do want
>> this legal in the USA and done in a real clinical
>> setting.  I
>> hope I see it in my lifetime.  I'll be the first to fill out app for the
>> job.
>> Sister
>>
>> On Dec 11, 2013, at 11:04 PM, Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>       Hi Sis,
>>
>> If a person has a prolonged qt would it be detected during a normal EKG?
>>  If it goes too low will a defib help?  Do most places
>> monitor it during detox?
>>
>> Just Curious,
>>
>>   - JIM
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 10:05 PM, sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>       Qt intervals part of cardiac electrical current  The P Q R S T
>> waves.  Prolong qt interval is the time it takes from
>>       q wave to t wave.  I would draw one but not that savvy on pc.  I
>> know you've seen it some where.
>>
>> I don't know what else to say but the plant iboga does not knock opiates
>> off the receptor.  For instance, the substance
>> Narcan will push the opiate off the receptor.
>>
>> Adding ibogaine on top of methadone and many other meds/substance can
>> cause the time from q wave to t wave slow to point
>> of death.  Hopefully ones lucky enough to get treated before death.
>>  Treatment as far as I know is to pace the heart
>> mechanically.
>> Does this clarify?
>> Sister
>>
>> On Dec 11, 2013, at 3:50 PM, Sergey Sibirian <sibirianfox at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>       Sister,
>>
>> Can you you please do me (and others I assume) a favour
>> and re-write that post in English?
>> IN ENGLISH.
>>
>> I'm asking not to be hard or whatnot, but coz I want to know your opinion
>> on
>> this matter.
>>
>> What exactly is "prolonged QT"?
>>
>> Then, the following sentence makes no sense TO ME, I don't know about
>> others…
>> "...Second reason... Long acting, ibo does not push opiated off receptor
>> site.  So how effective of you want tx to
>> be?
>>
>> I know no one ask but sorta sensitive about this , I lost a friend for
>> her inpatients, misinformation given to her
>> about safety of mixing the two substances.  Unnessasary death.   "
>>
>> Which "two substances"?
>>
>> Peace
>>
>> Sergey
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>       Well.. My take is this .  We KNOW methadone has high potential to
>> prolong qt.  it's documented by way
>>       too many studies.  As an er nurse seen many times methadone addicts
>> coming in complaining of sudden
>>       onset of severe tiredness, weakness etc.  On assessment new med
>> added.    Then do EKG and find prolong
>>       qt.  what ever new med stopped.  We also know ibogaine can also
>> prolong qt, So increasing risk for
>>       death.
>> Second reason... Long acting, ibo does not push opiated off receptor
>> site.  So how effective of you want tx to
>> be?
>>
>> I know no one ask but sorta sensitive about this , I lost a friend for
>> her inpatients, misinformation given to
>> her about safety of mixing the two substances.  Unnessasary death.
>>
>> Smooth journey,Sister
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2013, at 5:20 PM, junkboy <junkboy64 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>       sub is worse the methadone in my opinion.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Annette Dilucchio <dilucch at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>       Just wanted to share this response I rec'd when I volunteered
>> myself as a subject in the
>>       clinical trials scheduled to begin next month on 18-MC.  From what
>> I make of it, the
>>       participants who will determine the safety of this drug for
>> addiction will not be in active
>>       addiction but rather healthy individuals who've agreed to take the
>> medication in order to
>>       document the resulting physical side effects.
>>
>> As for me, Danielle thank you once again for your always comical and well
>> thought out input on my
>> circumstances. I got called into work for my mom last minute yesterday so
>> my Dr.'s Appt has been
>> rescheduled  for Thursday. Which gives me time to think about how to get
>> something useful out of
>> my visit. O-o  I got another month of methadone which knowing what I know
>> now feels more like a
>> sentence of doom than any kind of relief. I cannot believe I've signed on
>> for another month of
>> this unforgiving poison. Does suboxone do what methadone does to your
>> tolerance of opiates? Or
>> does it just HANG AROUND FOR 3 months??? I cannot decide which is the
>> lesser of these two evils.
>> Why doesn't David Graham mention Short-Acting Opiates in his successful
>> ibogaine EXP? Anyhoo- hope
>> all is well.
>>
>> Sincerely-  Annette
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> From: Stephen Hurst <slhurst at savanthwp.com>
>> Date: December 9, 2013 at 3:43:20 PM PST
>> To: Annette Dilucchio <dilucch at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: Clinical trials.
>>
>> Dear Annette,
>>
>> Thank you for your interest in Savant HWP and our
>> addiction medicine project.  Unfortunately, it will be a while before
>> 18-MC is available to patients in the US.  Human studies begin early next
>> year but the initial trials will be in healthy volunteers in an effort to
>> determine safe dosage levels before treating patients.  Our first
>> obligation is to be sure the drug is not harmful and it will take at least
>> a
>> year to establish safety before treating patients.  I encourage you to
>> check our website from time to time where we will post information about
>> clinical trials as it becomes available.  In the meantime, we wish you all
>> the best in your recovery efforts.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> Stephen L. Hurst, JD
>> President & CEO
>> Savant HWP, Inc.
>> 655 Skyway Road, Suite 212
>> San Carlos, CA 94070
>>
>>
>>
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>> --
>> Wish you well[IMAGE]
>>
>> Sergey
>>
>>
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>> --
>> Wish you well[IMAGE]
>>
>> Sergey
>>
>>
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-- 
*Wish you well*



Sergey
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