[Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical “Undergroun d†Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce nters

Sid sidskidpiercing at gmail.com
Mon Jan 16 12:44:21 EST 2012


I agree. I was on methadone for many years. Although I thought I was fully 'conscious' it's not until you come off that you realise just how anesthetised you are to the world! 

The difference is quite huge!

G

Sent from my iPhone

On 16 Jan 2012, at 17:39, Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote:

> When your free from your methadone addiction... I would love to hear about your spiritual self.  I do not nor do I know any other provider that insist on a "spiritual" belief system.  For me it very personal, I don't need to wear make up, light candles or have some type of ritual to satisfy my spiritual self.  I say to each their own.... But I do know while strung out on Methadone there was no spiritual self.  I though there was until I was free of it.
> I wish you luck in your journey.
> 
> From: David Ray <trees.and.rain at gmail.com>
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> 
> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical “Undergroun d†Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce nters
> 
> Major social systems are corrupt.  Some of them try to get better.
> They are the valuable ones. It seems to make sense to at least try to
> combat corruption.  Ibogaine is an immensely complex neuroactive
> molecule that is demonstrably dangerous.  Your spiritual beliefs have
> no relevance to me.  I came here to learn about a neuroactive
> substance.  I tried various other hallucinogens starting about 40
> years ago.  They provide some insight into neural mechanisms, the way
> the brain assembles consciousness.  I don't have the slightest
> interest in using them now.  My only interest is in using a
> neuroactive substance to help eliminate one more drug, methadone, from
> my body.  I've continued to use methadone because it is one of the
> least intrusive drugs I've encountered (In combination with other
> drugs it's a bastard - on its own it is reasonably harmless).  Much
> less harmful than alcohol or benzodiazepines.  But I'd like to get rid
> of methadone as well, because greater clarity of mind may help my
> writing and music(this is purely my situation and therefore irrelevant
> also, but I thought I'd add a bit of background).  Then maybe when the
> ibogaine itself is also eliminated from my body after 6 months or so
> I'll look into vipassana meditation again, or other spiritually
> related practices that I've explored in the past and let go or some
> that come to me later.  However, not only are your spiritual beliefs
> irrelevant, my spiritual beliefs are also irrelevant, except to me.
> This emphasis on individual spirituallity denies benefit to 99% of the
> people who may benefit from the drug, but don't share your belief
> system. Just like catholicism, judaiism, scientology, etc.  As a
> spiritual sacrament it may benefit some people.  As a medical
> treatment it may benefit 100 times as many or more.  The checks and
> balances of the medical system often screw up, but they substantially
> succeed much of the time.  There is, in particular, the notion of
> INFORMED consent.  Largely lacking from conventional medicine, but
> entirely lacking from most current ibogaine treatments. I've got no
> objection to current providers who are diligent and continue to learn,
> but a massive increase in the benefit to come from ibogaine will not
> come from within this system.  Only medicalisation, more people like
> Deborah Mash, will do that. SO SLOW, but with some pushing, maybe it
> will move faster.  Like some of the earliest posts, full of idiocy and
> abuse (Mr. Krupa may be related to the famous jazz drummer, the way he
> bounces around with quite stylish results amidst the chaos), I have
> found this sequence very helpful.  Unfortunate perhaps, but idiocy and
> abuse seems to stimulate rationality as well. People trying to
> explain, rather than the brief and pointless that often seems to
> prevail.
> 
>   -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>   -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
> 
> 
> 
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20120116/400e1167/attachment.html>


More information about the Ibogaine mailing list