[Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical “Undergroun d†Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce nters

Sid sidskidpiercing at gmail.com
Mon Jan 16 12:44:21 EST 2012

I agree. I was on methadone for many years. Although I thought I was fully 'conscious' it's not until you come off that you realise just how anesthetised you are to the world! 

The difference is quite huge!


Sent from my iPhone

On 16 Jan 2012, at 17:39, Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote:

> When your free from your methadone addiction... I would love to hear about your spiritual self.  I do not nor do I know any other provider that insist on a "spiritual" belief system.  For me it very personal, I don't need to wear make up, light candles or have some type of ritual to satisfy my spiritual self.  I say to each their own.... But I do know while strung out on Methadone there was no spiritual self.  I though there was until I was free of it.
> I wish you luck in your journey.
> From: David Ray <trees.and.rain at gmail.com>
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> 
> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Transitions | Unethical “Undergroun d†Ibogaine Detox Treatment Ce nters
> Major social systems are corrupt.  Some of them try to get better.
> They are the valuable ones. It seems to make sense to at least try to
> combat corruption.  Ibogaine is an immensely complex neuroactive
> molecule that is demonstrably dangerous.  Your spiritual beliefs have
> no relevance to me.  I came here to learn about a neuroactive
> substance.  I tried various other hallucinogens starting about 40
> years ago.  They provide some insight into neural mechanisms, the way
> the brain assembles consciousness.  I don't have the slightest
> interest in using them now.  My only interest is in using a
> neuroactive substance to help eliminate one more drug, methadone, from
> my body.  I've continued to use methadone because it is one of the
> least intrusive drugs I've encountered (In combination with other
> drugs it's a bastard - on its own it is reasonably harmless).  Much
> less harmful than alcohol or benzodiazepines.  But I'd like to get rid
> of methadone as well, because greater clarity of mind may help my
> writing and music(this is purely my situation and therefore irrelevant
> also, but I thought I'd add a bit of background).  Then maybe when the
> ibogaine itself is also eliminated from my body after 6 months or so
> I'll look into vipassana meditation again, or other spiritually
> related practices that I've explored in the past and let go or some
> that come to me later.  However, not only are your spiritual beliefs
> irrelevant, my spiritual beliefs are also irrelevant, except to me.
> This emphasis on individual spirituallity denies benefit to 99% of the
> people who may benefit from the drug, but don't share your belief
> system. Just like catholicism, judaiism, scientology, etc.  As a
> spiritual sacrament it may benefit some people.  As a medical
> treatment it may benefit 100 times as many or more.  The checks and
> balances of the medical system often screw up, but they substantially
> succeed much of the time.  There is, in particular, the notion of
> INFORMED consent.  Largely lacking from conventional medicine, but
> entirely lacking from most current ibogaine treatments. I've got no
> objection to current providers who are diligent and continue to learn,
> but a massive increase in the benefit to come from ibogaine will not
> come from within this system.  Only medicalisation, more people like
> Deborah Mash, will do that. SO SLOW, but with some pushing, maybe it
> will move faster.  Like some of the earliest posts, full of idiocy and
> abuse (Mr. Krupa may be related to the famous jazz drummer, the way he
> bounces around with quite stylish results amidst the chaos), I have
> found this sequence very helpful.  Unfortunate perhaps, but idiocy and
> abuse seems to stimulate rationality as well. People trying to
> explain, rather than the brief and pointless that often seems to
> prevail.
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