[Ibogaine] Advice Needed for Tapering if Pregnant - conclusion

Chris Jenks chris at jenks.us
Tue Dec 11 11:56:17 EST 2012


   Dear Friends,

   I need to conclude this topic, but my friend can be very private about 
her personal affairs when not desperate for help. However, what she has 
told me is that the strategy afforded by an observation of a member here, 
communicated privately, that if a person tolerant to short acting opiates 
is switched to methadone for three days, but then abruptly stops all 
opiate intake, that a relatively painless taper-like experience results, 
apparently due to the build up of methadone acting like a week of tapered 
short acting doses. My friend was in a perfect position to attempt this 
experiment, having been switched to methadone by apparently well meaning 
doctors in their attempts to "stabilize" her, but none of them willing to 
bear the legal liability of officially detoxifying her due to the ethical 
complications of a possible miscarriage being induced. In short, by all 
indications, my friend has been successful in both stopping all opiate 
intake since mid November and keeping her unborn child as well, describing 
the ordeal as no worse than a bad flu. What is particularly inspiring 
about her situation is that she had to go through opiate withdrawal 
without the assistance of ibogaine, while simultaneously defying the 
entire medical profession of our day, investing her trust in those who 
seem to have the best intentions for her instead. Needless to say, I am 
extremely proud of her.

   Yours,

     Chris

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Chris Jenks wrote:

>
>  Dear Jim and Friends,
>
>  I've forwarded your suggestions and encouragement and, at this point, have 
> done everything I can see to do, making sure my friend has internet access, 
> full awareness of your willingness and ability to help and all the 
> information needed to get here on the list to ask for any further guidance or 
> clarification. Things still aren't settled, and seem to keep hanging on the 
> latest promise of help from established doctors, while my friend is 
> surrounded by firm family support. I will let you and other helpers know how 
> things progress unless my friend comes to provide an update personally.
>
>  Yours,
>
>    Chris
>
> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012, Jim Hadey3 wrote:
>
>> Hi Chris,
>> 
>> It seems like a very sad situation but things can be worked out.  This 
>> happens many times a day all over the country.  I am glad your in a Real 
>> hospital in the
>> U.S. and covered by insurance for that tells ya you got real Drs. that have 
>> crossed the road before and the odds are the baby will do fine, yes it may 
>> be a bit
>> rough but that just has to be but when it is over all should be fine. 
>> 
>> This may be a good time for everyone to get together as a family as see if 
>> they can end the addiction thing and live a happier life style.  Raising a 
>> kid can be
>> so much fun, been my exp anyway.
>> 
>> Keep doing what your doing and help your friend and try and get her to 
>> clean up.  I know that is her job but just a kind encouraging word here and 
>> there may help
>> for this is her life and her choice and that may be all you can do. 
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>>   - JIM
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 8:00 PM, Shelly <shellygrantham at aol.com> wrote:
>>       Chris---please please tell your friend that detoxing fully--while 
>> pregnant is not worth risk to the baby.  It isn't the best thing for her 
>> child.
>>       Hope I can help in any way
>>       Shelly
>>
>>       Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Nov 13, 2012, at 1:47 PM, Chris Jenks <chris at jenks.us> wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >  Dear Shelly and Friends,
>> >
>> >  Thanks for the suggestions. I was confused what you meant, Shelly, when 
>> you said you weaned down to 40 mg/day by the time you gave birth yet your 
>> son
>> didn't have any methadone in his system or withdrawal - at birth? My 
>> understanding is that the only way to avoid an infant from going through 
>> withdrawal is
>> not to be tolerant to opiates at the time of birth, unless there is some 
>> opiate which is not passed through the placenta, which would sure be nice, 
>> but
>> I've never heard of any.
>> >  So far my friend is determined to detox now at month 3, even if it leads 
>> to miscarriage, to avoid having her child from having to endure withdrawal
>> after birth. But today she is on her way to a detox facility, apparently 
>> with the blessing of her gynecologist, so apparently not all doctors agree 
>> that
>> maintenance during pregnancy is the best choice. She was kind of forced 
>> into this decision by finding herself with dangerously low blood pressure 
>> this
>> morning, maybe due to her constant switching between hydromorphone, 
>> hydrocodeine and hydrocodone, whatever she can get apparently. She has 
>> family support
>> but the support is very frustrated by her reluctance to fully explain to 
>> most family members what is going on.
>> >  Thanks again for your support and advice.
>> >
>> >  Yours,
>> >
>> >    Chris
>> >
>> > On Sat, 10 Nov 2012, Shelly wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hello:
>> >> I thought I could offer a little bit to this conversation.  I had my son 
>> in 2003.  I was on methadone when pregnant.  I worked my was from 80 mgs to 
>> 40
>> by the
>> >> time I gave birth.  My obgyn said slowly coming down in dosage was safe 
>> as long as I wasn't feeling sick.  So, when I started feeling bad, I 
>> stopped.
>>  Anyway, I
>> >> had a healthy full term pregnancy.  My son didn't have any methadone in 
>> his system or any withdrawals.   So I believe stopping opiates ct is not 
>> safe.
>>  It is
>> >> better to take the minimum amount possible to not feel sick.  As far as 
>> taking ibo while pregnant, I don't know.  But personally, I wouldn't risk
>> anything while
>> >> pregnant. Better to have healthy baby and then do the ibo.
>> >> Hope info helps.
>> >> Shelly
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >> On Nov 9, 2012, at 7:32 PM, Jim Hadey3 <jimhadey3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>      Hi Peep,
>> >>
>> >>      There are so many things that are unknown.  The Ibo could do many 
>> things like slow the heart, cause convulsions, might be too strong for the 
>> baby's
>> >>      liver, who knows?  I would say let the Drs handle it for most of 
>> the babies born addicted live, they may go through hell but they live.  Of 
>> course
>> my
>> >>      opinion is no better than any others on the net.
>> >>
>> >>      Best,
>> >>
>> >>        - JIM
>> >>
>> >>      On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 7:13 PM, Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> 
>> wrote:
>> >>            I and my sister were delivered addicted to "german methadone" 
>> as my mother puts it.  My guess is it was laam.  Neither one of us has any
>> >>            memory of it.  I did become a rip roaring addict but not my 
>> sister.  So can't even put the blame there as far as the choices I made.  I
>> >>            am happy today to be alive.  I've been able to persue a 
>> career, normal intellengents but not a rocket scientist.  My sister is 
>> pretty
>> >>            intelligent.  Just thought I would share that Chris.   Not a 
>> good situation for neither mother or unborn child but it is what it is.  I
>> >>            would not be encouraging her to ct or even wean (if even 
>> possible) at this stage.  I don't know how ibo would effect the unborn, 
>> would
>> >>            ask someone like Dr atwar who's qualified and may know.
>> >>
>> >>            On Nov 9, 2012, at 2:27 PM, Chris Jenks <chris at jenks.us> 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>            >
>> >>            > Dear Friends,
>> >>            >
>> >>            > This is extremely depressing, especially given that we have 
>> learned, thanks to ibogaine, that going through withdrawal is neither
>> >>            healthy nor necessary. It sounds like the state of medical 
>> science for helping an infant in this condition is still in the stone age,
>> >>            thanks to all the fears on the topic. I would think she is 
>> just as well off going cold turkey now and risking a miscarriage, since at
>> >>            least there is the hope that her three-month fetus will be 
>> less aware of the ordeal than when he/she is born. Or even taking ibogaine
>> >>            while pregnant, while though crazy, seems hardly less crazy 
>> than the only alternative suggested. I would like to pass this problem off 
>> to
>> >>            "the experts", but it sounds like there aren't any really, 
>> that nobody has stepped up. I still need to find out what my friend decided 
>> to
>> >>            do, but I hadn't realized just how grim this situation 
>> remains. Thanks for the encouragement and sharing what you have. I really
>> >>            appreciate everyone's support and presence here.
>> >>            >
>> >>            > Yours,
>> >>            >
>> >>            >   Chris
>> >>            >
>> >>            > On Thu, 8 Nov 2012, Sid wrote:
>> >>            >
>> >>            >> My mother is an addiction midwife. In the UK the mothers 
>> are stabilised on methadone, sometimes pethidine or morphine. The babies 
>> are
>> >>            weaned after birth using morphine and apparently it's 
>> horrendous to watch.
>> >>            >>
>> >>            >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>            >>
>> >>            >> On 8 Nov 2012, at 20:53, "Jennifer Santos, RN, BSN" 
>> <jsantos at persephonebirthways.com> wrote:
>> >>            >>
>> >>            >>> There are some studies on sub in pregnancy, but I hadn't 
>> heard it was being used yet...where?  They might give morphine, I think, 
>> but
>> >>            I don't think that's typical. I also encouraged my methadone 
>> moms to breast feed, since that helps baby wean down too.
>> >>            >>>
>> >>            >>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>            >>>
>> >>            >>> On Nov 8, 2012, at 9:05 AM, Sister 
>> <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>            >>>
>> >>            >>>> I wondered.  Don't they slowly wean from the methadone 
>> too?  My mom was on laam (i think, she calls it German meth)when I and
>> >>            another sibling born.  Strange, my sister never became a 
>> addict.. I feel like I was never not an addict. I am 55 so that's how long 
>> ago
>> >>            they used methadone for pregnant women addicts.  My sister is 
>> and always healthy, I was healthy till my mid 40's barring I spent all my
>> >>            life struggling with addiction.  My mother was not involved 
>> with clinics as we know them today but her md treated her with some form of
>> >>            methadone in 57'. Nowadays they are also using suboxone for 
>> pregnant women.  I am glad that was not around back then.  Being on sub for
>> >>            only 6 mo I can't fathom what damage that would of caused me 
>> in my formative months of life.
>> >>            >>>>
>> >>            >>>> On Nov 8, 2012, at 12:11 AM, "Jennifer Santos, RN, BSN" 
>> <jsantos at persephonebirthways.com> wrote:
>> >>            >>>>
>> >>            >>>>> They detox the babies after birth. Usually with 
>> benzodiazepines.
>> >>            >>>>>
>> >>            >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>            >>>>>
>> >>            >>>>> On Nov 7, 2012, at 11:12 PM, Chris Jenks 
>> <chris at jenks.us> wrote:
>> >>            >>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>> That sounds worse than staying on hydromorphone for 
>> the baby (longer withdrawal).
>> >>            >>>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>> On Wed, 7 Nov 2012, Jennifer Santos, RN, BSN wrote:
>> >>            >>>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>>> They will put her on methadone. Baby will have to 
>> detox.
>> >>            >>>>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>            >>>>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>>> On Nov 7, 2012, at 10:16 PM, sister 
>> <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>            >>>>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>>>> She needs to see ob.  It can be very dangerous for 
>> baby to detox now.
>> >>            >>>>>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>>>> Sister
>> >>            >>>>>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>>>> On Nov 7, 2012, at 9:46 PM, Chris Jenks 
>> <chris at jenks.us> wrote:
>> >>            >>>>>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>>>>> Dear Friends,
>> >>            >>>>>>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>>>>> A young friend asked my advice for quitting an 18 
>> month habit of taking hydromorphone, presently at 4 mg five times a day,
>> >>            which she seems determined to leave behind. The major 
>> complication is that she is three months pregnant. I still plan to ask 
>> around the
>> >>            medical professionals in our area and hopefully connect her 
>> with one with both the ability and willingness to help, but since I greatly
>> >>            respect the experiencve of this group I hoped for suggestions 
>> of options to consider and of ones to avoid meanwhile.
>> >>            >>>>>>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>            >>>>>>>>>
>> >>            >>>>>>>>> Chris
>> >>            >>>>>>>>>
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