[Ibogaine] Benzos Are Deadly

sister sistereboga at yahoo.com
Sat Sep 24 12:08:36 EDT 2011


I dont think anyone is saying that bz are contraindicated with IBoga.. what I am saying is that taking a pill\shot or what ever every time one gets uncomfortable is what got us addicted in the first place.  WHY not allow a client try and work thru the anxiety while in a safe place?

I of couse do treat those with bz habits...I just take more precautions.  I do dose mid flood etc... but just because one dosnt fall asleep immed after a tx does not warrant a pill to make them feel more comfortable...  I do give something if no sleep in 72 hrs.. for sure.  I also do a lot of teaching on other ways to lower ones anxiety.  NOT go immed to drugs.

And let me share from a person who went thru bz wd 30 or so yrs ago and had NEVER touch one since until my  second flood.  I did take clonazapan and did feel it and did get high.  Maybe one addicted to the bz wont feel the high but those need to be dose for safety anyways.  Just for those that have not pick up a habit as of yet... so many other meds/excerises can be use first to help one learn how to deal with life on lifes terms....

Just though I would clarify my stance on this.....I just hate to see any provider depend on addictive drugs as first line of defense.

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 24, 2011, at 8:46 AM, Emma Sachs <emma04406 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Right on Birka- it's the truth.
> 
> On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 11:40 PM, Birka Henderson <birkahenderson at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm one who doesn't reply very often or write to public lists but the benzo nosense is mostly silliness. I'm another person who uses klonopin and have found it a godsend, there's no high, I couldn't give the stuff away to anybody who takes benzos for fun, but it does work as directed especially when you're not taking some huge amount of opiates at the same time. 
> If anyone who was experiencing anxiety before being treated with ibogaine the first time wasn't treated at all, then I'd think nobody would ever be treated with ibogaine ever, anywhere. I can't think of anyone taking a psychedelic drug with the intent of getting free of their addiction is not going to be having anxiety. 
> For that matter when I did ibogaine I was given IV valium at the same time. Didn't have a negative effect on the detox ability of ibogaine in any way. Benzos and ibo seem to go very well together.
> 
> From: "Gilstrap, Mike" <MGilstrap at republicmedia.com>
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 6:41 PM
> 
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Benzos Are Deadly
> 
> Just wanted to add my two cents on some of the below. Being on so many things: oxy / fior w/codeine / adderal / xanax…..probably more, but those are the biggies I’m trying to get off of (especially oxy – that stuff just changes your personality). Years ago after suffering from major panic attacks after trying a couple of rx’s, my doc put me on Klonopin (the brand – the brand works diff than the generic). I loved it. Like they say below, it is calming but there’s no real “high” or feelings of elation. It’s very strong and I wound up just taking a “tinge” (like 1/4th of a .5 mg tablet) a few times during the day. Could concentrate better, didn’t freak out at everything and something odd happened – I could read music very easily. I play piano mostly by ear due to being a lousy note-reader. Something about Klono “opened something up” in my brain and suddenly I’m reading and playing music I never could before.
>  
> Now I’m dependant / hooked on all this other stuff due to a botched operation that left me with never-ending migraine headaches. However before getting on all that went to Barrow’s Neurological Center in Phoenix , their headache doctor put me back on Klono (and a ton of other non-addictive stuff). She refused all narcotics and anything that would give a high, but said Klono actually helps migraines if taken regularly. I’m not saying go out and try and get it if you get headaches (probably most docs wouldn’t rx it for headaches anyways). Unfortunately none of her methods and or drugs helped at all – only narcotics stopped the pain and codeine was perfect. However the pain doc I went to used OxyContin because it doesn’t have Tylenol in it (tuff on the liver) and over time other drugs were added until I’m on all this stuff now.
>  
> Klono vs. Xanax vs. Valium – there’s no contest. The last two will make you feel better and work much quicker (also wears off quick and make you more tired), but it’s so easy to become dependent / addicted on the feelings. Klonopin doesn’t do that. It calms the nerves, allows the brain to kind of relax and actually work better (at least it did for me), but it doesn’t get you high. It can be fooling though – you can feel nothing and sometimes appear (to other people) – totally ripped. Low doses work best. I haven’t flooded or anything, still researching and no idea how or where to go, but I agree with the person below about Klono vs the other stuff – at least for non-alcohalic related treatment. For that, docs – many rehab docs – use valium for alcohol withdrawal / seizures.
>  
> You all have such helpful advice……
>  
> Thanks,
> Westcott
> From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com] On Behalf Of Sister
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 6:18 PM
> To: The Ibogaine List
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Benzos Are Deadly
>  
> I also like to use trazadone (after 72 hr) for sleep.  It always gives 4-6 hrs at 150 mg.  Remember that it can cause q-t problems so not before and must wait 72 hrs.
> 
> Sister
> 
> On Sep 22, 2011, at 6:45 PM, fallen eden <falleneden1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> "If a person has anxiety before or after treatment, then do not treat this person."
>> 
>> Then I shouldn't have been treated. I do not think anybody decided that ibo and benzos were best friends.. I was the one yelling about how we only do it when necessary, wasn't I? The point is there's no major interaction, so it's not dangerous.. So what do we do for people still on benzos? Alcoholics? (phenobarbital as well..) Ironically I've been criticized for this, but I only use KLONOPIN/clonazepam.. Why? It's the least happy-type benzo still in the stronger class, the least likely to be abused, the most used in psychiatry.. I've been chastised a bit for not using xanax instead because of its fast onset (therefore, faster sleep). Klonopin can take up to 40 minutes to work, compared to 15-20 with xanax. But I look at the risk.. I don't want somebody liking what I give them, and nobody takes much interest in klonopin unless they have a real anxiety disorder (like, uh, me.)
>> 
>> I have no liking for klonopin when/if I take it. This is generally universal for people with anxiety- They don't care much about some high, and don't even like the feeling, but only like the relief from sudden anxiety- at least, though who use klonopin, because it produces very little high. This is how I have always been, having access to benzodiazepines if they are needed- but only if they are needed- and I see nothing wrong with it. One may as well say that one should not treat if they took vicodin after getting a tooth pulled out.
>> 
>> Also, I know somebody who was awake for ten days straight because they weren't given benzos to sleep. If I flood, I go.. four days or more without sleep unless I use benzodiazepines. 48 hour crash, no.. I'm walking proof of that..
>> 
>> Benzo protocols are simple.. it cuts tolerance in half even if the person is given benzos during the treatment to prevent seizures.  Alcohol, depends on the type of alcoholic, they scare me a little more because of the higher seizure risk on dependent alcoholics. I will hold back benzos for the most part on benzodiazepine treatments or opioid/benzo treatments, but I will not hold back with dependent alcoholism. What, we are just supposed to kick these people to the curb? I was never dependent nor addicted to either, but still.. Those people deserve treatment.
>> 
>> Hell, a methamphetamine treatment is more dangerous and deadly than those treatments involving barbituates or benzodiazepines because of the notorious amphetamine-ibogaine drug-drug interaction!
>> On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Emma <emma04406 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> To Sister, 
>> Yes I agree that some professional help is ideal. i took out a loan to go to Mexico and had a horrible experience- that could have easily killed me..
>> Hopefully people will read and be careful. But using can kill people too. Some people resort to awful measures to get their drugs and can't use the same measures for a treatment. Some people have the money and some don't.
>>  
>>  
>> On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 7:39 PM, Mikki Lynne <xxmikkixx at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear God,
>>  
>> I am sorry to learn that you are 
>> not happy
>>> to hear some of [us] are taking benzos, and giving advice about life and
>>> health.
>>  
>> It also sickens me that you are
>> 
>> sickened that any of [us] are suggesting a person [we] know
>> nothing about take them.  
>>  
>> With a broken heart, I tearfully repent and beg your forgiveness for transgressions against your holy word. Furthermore, as a mere mortal- filthy and undeserving- I thank you profusely for your continuing revelation to us, referring us back to the universal holy scripture, which you have given us from the beginning, in which you state:
>> 
>> 
>> The only people who should work with Ibo, are
>> the people who are ready to use their own body as a positive example. 
>>  
>> Please forgive us our ignorance in these matters, and in any future situation which may arise in which one of us should offer a suggestion or idea of help, as we have no business in trying to help others at all, due to our complete inability to know compassion or the One True Way .
>>  
>> In Gilbert's name,
>> Amen.
>> 
>> On Sep 11, 2011, at 5:50 PM, cbava108 at gmail.com wrote:
>>> All I have to say is, prove it and what the hell is a Banzi?
>>> On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 7:33 AM, Gilbert du Motier <deptrai at ibogahelp.com> wrote:
>>> If a person needs Benzos during treatment because they are addicted to
>>> them, then do not treat this person.
>>> If a person is an alcoholic, and they need benzos to hold back seizures,
>>> then do not treat this person.
>>> If a person has such anxiety that they need benzos before or during
>>> treatment, do not treat this person.
>>> 
>>> Benzos are deadly.
>>> 
>>> And if you take benzos, you have no place working with Ibo. I am not happy
>>> to hear some of you are taking benzos, and giving advice about life and
>>> health. I am sickened that any of you are suggesting a person you know
>>> nothing about take them.  The only people who should work with Ibo, are
>>> the people who are ready to use their own body as a positive example. If
>>> you can not take care of yourself, then you can not take care of others.
>>> 
>>> I dont know who decided that benzos and Ibo are best friends, but that
>>> shit needs to stop. Benzos are a terribly destructive drug. For the people
>>> who enjoy them, it is a crippling addiction with horrific and potentially
>>> deadly withdrawals. They have only one use in treatment, and that is to
>>> get the Banzi a few hours of fake sleep after they are out of the Ibo
>>> experience, and it has been more than 36 hours since they slept.
>>> 
>>> Getting the Banzi to sleep signals the end of a phase of the treatment,
>>> and the providers can take a breather. The problem is that the person may
>>> not be able to sleep, although they will be exhausted.
>>> 
>>> Even the healthiest and strongest mind will break down after 48 hours of
>>> no sleep. I have read about people who have gone for treatment, then lied
>>> to providers about when they would go home. It was like this person said
>>> they would stay for a week, but only stayed two days. Unfortunately for
>>> everyone, the Banzi had not slept.  When they arrived back home, the Banzi
>>> lost their mind due to severe sleep deprivation. Chaotic events came about
>>> involving hospitals and police. The Banzi was not in control of their
>>> actions.
>>> 
>>> That is one of the worst-case scenarios, but it can happen to anyone. Like
>>> Mr Caravelli said, a Banzi must get 2-3 hours of sleep in the first 48
>>> hours. If they can not get it naturally, then they will need a sleep aid.
>>> 
>>> This should be the first and last time they take any benzos.  I wish no
>>> treatment involved benzos. It is a necessary evil, that I am desperate to
>>> end. It retards your ability to observe, analyze, and reflect on a
>>> situation, which is the most important part of Iboga. You can not learn
>>> anything new if benzos are shutting down the learning centers of your
>>> brain.
>>> 
>>> After the first few hours of benzo fake sleep, the Banzi should be able to
>>> get a few hours (not many) of natural sleep in the coming days. A few
>>> hours is ok.  There is no reason to be like, "You have anxiety? Take a
>>> benzo. You sleeping only 4 hours a night? Take a benzo." That is not ok.
>>> Stop it.
>>> 
>>> I will not treat Alcoholics or benzo addicts. They need help, they deserve
>>> the best treatment. I can not give them the best shot. I know the people
>>> that know a lot more about alcohol than I do, so I would send them there.
>>> If they were addicted to benzos, I would direct them away from Ibo, and
>>> towards a proper tried and tested detox from doctors who deal with only
>>> benzos. When they get a lot of clean time from the benzos, then it is time
>>> to talk about Ibo, but not until then.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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