[Ibogaine] Not a good week - Another Death Ibogaine Related

fallen eden falleneden1 at gmail.com
Thu Mar 24 17:07:24 EDT 2011

Ey Patrick you checked the other list queues too right? (Well.. duh yeah I
know you did, but basically I haven't been able to approve any requests to
the ibogaine treatment board because of no internet access and also no phone
(it was stolen) for two months until now [SPEAKING OF THIS I HAVE LOST ALL
ARE!!!!!!]..Anyways the ibotreatment list is easily confused with this one
but i have to dig around to find any potential requests, guess if I find any
I'll send it thru..

[And a side note before getting to the real topic, for everyone seeing my
name on the list for the first time in ages wondering if I'm okay or if I
had died- heh, you are not far off- extenuating circumstances rendered me
physically unable to work or function shortly after Christmas which is why
none of you got Christmas cookies as I had promised- including Gary, who I
was supposed to help around Christmastime with his paws problems. I owe
sincerest apologies to Gary who had been counting on me; my hope is that he
found help elsewhere even though I of all people understand what he must
have gone through losing complete contact with me and little prospect of
help elsewhere, which is why I am truly sorry for letting you down Gary.
Essentially, two days after Christmas I was a victim of a very traumatic
incident, very violent and sexual in nature involving a complete stranger,
and I felt psychologically unable to work or function until the end of
January despite contacting police, resources and counseling. I improved by
the end of January but then, at the very beginning of February I had an
onset of new physical problems due to a genetic disorder nobody knew I had
until blood tests were conducted (turns out my brother had the identical
genetic disorder upon further testing). While in the hospital being treated
for these complications of a newly discovered genetic disorder, I developed
a nosocomial MRSA infection (layman's terms for "The hospital gave me that
fuckin super-staph-bacteria you mostly can only get in hospitals that's
resistant to penicillin-type antibiotics and requires specific IV
antibiotics to treat effectively or it will kill you.") Anyways, I was
hospitalized repeatedly for both problems- one related to genetics and a few
other things I will elaborate upon later, and one related to the hospital
giving me a deadly staph infection which eventually required a surgery to
remove an infected lymph node which had apparently begun to turn necrotic,
died, and subsequently abscessed due to their lazy approach to the
treatment. But I digress, I was intending to post something a bit more
detailed about it later or send a bulk email out about this- But everyone
please refrain from asking questions on this thread about it, just send PMs
to avoid clutter on this already crazy looking thread... And now we get to
what I think about this issue, WHOOOO!!!!]

But to the topic itself, finally. First appears to be a problem of Who Is
Telling The Truth. We know Kevin must have his motivations.. Or, perhaps he
is trying to simply blow a whistle on a clinic that was negligent. But, we
can't forget all the ibo-scandals that surround Kevin Walker, which I just
won't mention at this time since there has been no definitive closure or
decision on those matters to my knowledge. However I will also admit to my
personal bias of feeling that many clinic environments are not exercising
the amount of care they should- And hell, this is an observation coming from
the underground! (Normally, we are the ones accused of not exercising good
screening or generalized care.) I am not speaking of EVERY clinic here, to
be VERY clear, but there are some I feel are below par on monitoring and
flat out caring for their patient.

Now it also does appear that Diane who actively defends the clinic in
question has some ties to this particular clinic as friend of the
providers.. But, I would pose one warning to her (without taking either side
as of who is to blame here) that sometimes providers in certain clinics will
disobey their own standards of care for the sake of convenience, thinking
there's no harm done by it and not intentionally trying to cause any
problems. I know this sort of thing first hand, being friends with some
people that I feel are not nearly as thorough as they ought to be, and it's
a hard position to find yourself in- IF indeed there was some lack
appropriate care and monitoring going on at this clinic in question.

For example, somebody asked, "Why would you give somebody a test at an
airport?" The word "booster" was used... If anything over 3mg/kg was given
at an airport, I would definitely call that completely irresponsible no
matter what. But, playing devil's advocate, there are several reasons a
clinic would want to give someone their test at the airport. Most people
react to ibogaine, particularly tests, just fine and barely feel too much
effect except for ceased withdrawal. That is one reason a clinic might try
to give the test upon picking the person up from their terminal- They've
been on a very long flight and are sick, and the provider knows that giving
the test then would halt withdrawals, and also speed up the treatment time
(which is really for their benefit and not for the patient). Upon reaching
the clinic facility, the person could be flooded right then if they had
already been tested, hugely speeding things up.

However.. I DON'T agree with any of what I just explained. I happen to
understand these things from.. well, friends.. who use methods in treatment
at clinics that I feel are not up to our standards as a treatment community.
A person should NEVER be given their test dose without getting baseline
vitals on them first! And for the stimulant folks out there, which this
appears to be one, the real and sometimes only way to ensure their safety
during treatment regarding the drug-drug interaction is to have them show up
3-5 days early at the clinic and you just have to sit on them, and perform a
full search, to ensure they don't use amphetamines. I was fortunate to have
a committed patient able to accomplish this on his own without me having to
quarantine him and supervise around the clock, but he was also not a
methamphetamine user IV or smoked (it was oral amphetamines). He was
immediately honest that he started drinking energy drinks to try to stave
off the horrible feelings of craving when he began the abstinence period
pre-treatment, but he understood clearly that this was his life on the line
and did not touch amphetamines for 3 days.. But most people aren't like
that; he was a rare exception it appears. (He ended up being a shining
example of success in my opinion, coming up on a year after treatment this

But back to the main issue at hand.. Is the clinic at fault by giving
ibogaine too soon and lack of monitoring, or did this death have nothing to
do with ibogaine and was a random occurrence, OR did this death have nothing
to do with ibogaine and was precipitated by the patient's methamphetamine
use (ie, causing cardiac arrest on its own?) Cannot be sure on any counts.
What I would do, since Kevin Walker feels a vested interest in seeing that
the clinic is to blame, is to validate this claim somehow in a real manner.
Get this person subscribed to the List who claims to have witnessed some of
the negligence and who claims to have had conversations with the
now-deceased. And get some validation on identity.. This particular person
as a witness need not fear anything by coming forward with their real name,
seeing that they were undergoing a treatment in a country where it is legal.
(That is, if the witness really exists.) And on the other side, get your
records straight- What other patients were treated at the time of this
person found deceased; what exactly are the facts of how the person arrived,
was brought to the clinic, and subsequently discovered deceased? (That of
course will be something argued about over and over again..)

I do believe clinics will sometimes get sloppy to save time, or just out of
ignorance not realizing that giving a person a test dose early to ease their
withdrawal symptoms just might kill them if they've got a drug in their
system they're not telling you about. Either way, the clinic is mostly not
at fault if the patient had used amphetamines sometime within the 3 day
abstinence window, which unfortunately it sounds like this person may have.
But, the point of a clinic is to have people called "staff" that run around
24/7 to check patient status (which I know for certain that some clinics
don't really utilize their staff in such a way and instead sit around and
perhaps get stoned during a patient's flood or may even leave the treatment
facility)..If it was indeed right that this person was far beyond code blue
by the time it was noticed, that is a problem that lies on the clinic.

But... Still, the main problem appears to be how to get the real truth out
of anybody.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Patrick K. Kroupa <digital at phantom.com>wrote:

> On Mar 15, 2011, at 12:39 PM, Kevin Walker wrote:
> > I have been asked to publish this information on behalf of the witnesses
> at the clinic on the day of the death, as they have been unable to join
> Mindvox due to delayed membership authority acceptance delays !!!
> There aren't any accounts in the queue to be validated...  I already sent
> you email off-list, if you give me the email address, I will just add it.
> If they are bangin' into the front-page http://www.mindvox.com, that's the
> actual system -- all of MindVox -- this has not yet been fused with the
> ibogaine list itself.
> To sign onto the list, they need to sign in here for now:
> http://www.mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine
> It's "double opt-in" to comply with anti-spamming (so other people cannot
> sign you into the list).  It will send a confirmation email to the address
> you want to add, this may be in their junk-mail folder on some mail systems
> (in which case they should mark it as "not spam"), they need to click the
> link and agree that "yes" they really want to sign up to the list.
> The fast-forward methodology is: just give me their email address, I will
> add.
> Patrick
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