[Ibogaine] Question for Everyone

Vector Vector vector620022002 at yahoo.com
Thu Dec 29 20:19:00 EST 2011


The dirty maintenance article is Patrick's, published in MAPS: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/Articles/MAPS-Ibogaine2.pdf 

It would be nice if anybody else doing this wrote more follow ups or data, but that was the first and so far as I know only article ever published on the subject.


________________________________
 From: Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com>
To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> 
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Question for Everyone
 

OK, and shocking that I did spell that right.  I suck at spelling, spent my school yrs doing dope and didn't learn a thing in school.
 
But...Again...I did have those symptoms for sure.  Lethargy, some chills/sweats that came and went but not near what I would of gone thru w/o Iboga.  I had depression for sure and I did have to work on that.  So.. it very normal for us addicts that have a long history and for those of us who did suboxone/methadone.  I also have MS and chronic back pain.  The back surgery was a waste.
I did have to learn to live with the pain.  What amazed me was the longer I stayed away from dope the less the pain was.  At 6mo clean I can say that there were days I had NO pain at all.  Today I can take motrin for my pain and get great relief.  I do panic if I don't have motrin near by.
 
Its sad that his provider did not share with him that this would happen and the need for exercise, support and therapy for depression.  Maybe if he knew this he would not of perceived it to be so bad.  When I was searching I talked to Clare a few times (even though I didn't go there).  She shared with me that I would have residual wd for about a month and she was right.   Knowing this did prepare me.  I was prepared for the depression and had a therapist set up all ready.  I began exercising as suggested.  Bottom line I became very active in my recovery.
 
I know that we all have different threshold for discomforts.  Has this guy ever been thru wd before?  If not, I can see where he may not think it worked.  If so...the difference is really amazing and cannot be missed.  Being a nurse for 30 yrs I have come to the conclusion that men have less tolerance for pain..working with this plant for the last 1.5 yrs, I see the same.  The men tend to have a tougher time on the day after then women.  Wanting bz, or something to knock them out and not willing to work thru the discomforts of the after math with Ibo.
So... My answer to you is yes it worked.  It did reset his receptors.  If I started to do dope today I know within a few weeks I would be taking as much as I did prior to Iboga.  I am a dope addict.  I like the way it makes me feel.   I like that I don't have to deal with being me while on dope.
 
You not sharing what this person diagnosis is.  Can you?  this might help me understand the reason he needs dope to exist.
I also needed a second flood to get rid of the depression and put me back on track.   Maybe that is what he needs.  I would not be comfortable or willing to treat somone who plans on going back to dope (ug anyways, would in legal place maybe).. esp in a few days.  I would fear his death.
 
I did read once somewhere about dirty maintenance with Iboga.  I had a client (not with Ibo) that was dying of bone ca.  I did help her with her pain and did use micro doses... she was able to use the dope for her pain and not get to the point of incoherence and spend quality time with her family.  SO I know it works.  I saw it with my own eyes.
 
I am sorry for not understanding but I know Iboga works... just also take effort on our part.
So... if you can answer my questions maybe I could be of more help to you.
1) what is his diagnosis
2)  did he ex cerise or do anything to help the brain produce endorphins?  is he able?
3)  has he ever gone thru ct?
4..... well thats really it for now.  As I said.. the day I treat someone with Iboga and I see that it didn't work, that is the day I walk away from it and never provide again.  For me..it has to be across the board that it works.  Not here or there but with everyone I treat.  I have been working with this plant now full time for a little over a yrs.  I have treated many and NEVER seen it not work.  I have had clients leave me and go right back to dope by choice but it was a choice, not out of failure of the treatment.
Maybe now that he knows the facts of what he will feel like after the treatment he would have a better choice.
I read a great article on "dirty maintenance".. I will find it if your interested.
I am sorry for not understanding.  I just seen this same post come up and folks answered... in fact the same a few yrs back.   
Again... so many variables with each client which is why it so great to work one on one with clients.  We are all so different.  Some of us are just not ready to do the work that goes along with getting and staying clean.  But from what you say.. I think it worked.  I think he was not prepared and maybe was not told what to expect after the treatment.  I have to say... if Clare did not spend the time with me on the phone sharing what to expect i would of left MX on day three to come home and get my dope.  
Oh yeah... I forgot.  When I woke up the day after the flood.. wd did began seeping back and I had to have a booster... after that booster it went away.  A few days later again the wd was seeping back.  My provider apparently did believe in booster and wouldn't give me any more.  I did learn a lot from my own treatment and another guy who was there straight off suboxone... I saw how he suffered.  From my experience and watching his...and the Md's that I was able to assist with Iboga for their addiction and them coming back to me explaining exactly what was going on in the body during the flood.. I was able to come up with my own protocol for TX and boosters.  The success rate is pretty amazing, esp when comparing to other modes of treatments that the USA has to offer which is maintenance only.   God speed.... wish I could help more.  If you dont want to answer question out in the open send me a pvt email... I will share how I took care of me
 with my chronic pain and many others.

From: Chris Mallin <cmallin20 at gmail.com>
>To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> 
>Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 4:37 AM
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Question for Everyone
>
>
>Thank you for your response. By the way, you spelled it pretty much correctly, hyperalgesia 
>
>However, I don't know why you say that I don't want to hear the truth. I certainly do want to hear the truth, especially since this is not even about ME. This is about a pain patient who DOES indeed need opiates. He did Ibogaine last time, with the full desire to try and see if he could manage without the opiates, both from a physical pain perspective and from the withdrawal (PAWS) perspective. And so he DID try his best and was willing to live with pain (from his condition). But he assumed that there would have been at least no opioid withdrawal, which was not the case at all. He had chills, aches, restlessness, no energy (the acute withdrawal) and then the low energy and major depression (the PAWS).......Finally, after two months
 or so, with dealing with his pain AND the W/D symptoms, he and his doctor decided to go back on the opiates.
>
>This time, since it is unlikely his pain will allow him to stay off opiates, his goal - and his doctor is fully behind this plan- is to use an Ibogaine flood to reset his tolerance back down to zero (as just about every single expert/person out there agrees that a full Ibogaine treatment will reset opioid/opiate tolerance to zero, whereas even taking a tiny dose days afterward will yield a major effect). 
>
>But the question is, given how much residual withdrawal he had after the Ibogaine treatment last time, should there be any concern that maybe Ibogaine just does not reset his tolerance/receptors? That is the bottom line. It is simply: Given what happened last time, is there reason to worry that Ibogaine will not reset his receptors/tolerance, or does one (his withdrawal afterward) have nothing to do with the other
 (receptor/tolerance reset)?
>
>So SISTER, no, I am not challenging you. And no, I am not trying to miss someone's point. I am simply, apparently, not clear on what the exact answer to my aforementioned question actually is.
>
>Thanks again Sister! Merry Christmas. Look forward to hearing from you.
>
>And I also would love to hear from anyone else!!
>
>Chris
>
>
>
>
>On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 12:48 AM, Sister <sistereboga at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>again... I think you missed the point of my email.
>>I never seen Ibogaine not work.  VERY COMMON that long term addicts have some residual symptoms.  VERY COMOM.  
>> 
>>If this person really didnt want to get clean... laid around and did NOTHING to help himself.  He expected the iboga to change every thing for him... chances are he will use again.  That does not mean the iboga did not work.
>> 
>>opiates are not the best choice for chronic pain.   In fact it will create chonic pain... called hyperaligesia though i am sure I am spelling it wrong.  Maybe you should read my post again.
>> 
>>So I pose a question to you.  OR a few questions.
>>1.  What esle did your friend do to help himself?
>>2  Did he change anything?
>>3.  Did he change or even attempt to change his approach to life?..  change eating habits?
>>4.  did he excerise at all or go home and continue going from bed to couch, to chair to couch back to bed?
>>5  did he seek out any therapy to help him learn how to cope with life without the cushion of dope?
>> 
>>The day I treat someone who is a dope addict and I see it not work... not for lack of desire of the client or effort but simply the iboga did not work... I walk away from it.  I did dope for over 35yrs.  I did have residual wd symptoms.. I was depressed after the treatment.  I was told from the get... if I did nothing to help myself I would go right back to dope.  Know what happen.  I did shit to change anything and w/in a few month I pick up again.  I did it a second time.. this time I did put effort in it and wow.. now I am over two yrs clean and going very strong.  
>> 
>>I once had a boating accident that left me with rupture labia major and minor, fratured pubid synthese.  Rupture ureter.  I was in terrerble pain after two surgerys even to help.  I was on a diludid drip.  I begged my sister to give me motrin and finally she did.  It was the first time I felt the pain go away.  The diludid drip did shit for pain.  I was high as I could get but pain still there till the motrin.  So I dont believe one need dope for pain.  I will never be convinced that dope is for chronic pain.   
>>ONce when I was clean after a few yrs out to sea.  I had to have back surgery once I returned.  I put it off for months in fear of takeing dope and starting that life all over.  I did have the surgery and not once in the hospital did I need dope.  I took toradol for two days then went to motrin.  NEVER needed the dope.  I was discharged from the hospital and my sister picked up my scripts.  Low and behold I had a bottle of percs.  I didnt take them for about two days at home.  Didnt need them.  about the third day I relapse and took a few... then I "had pain".  With in a week or so I was right back to my dope life .....
>> 
>>I know you dont want to hear the truth... so keep asking till you get what you want to hear.
>>From: Chris Mallin <cmallin20 at gmail.com>
>>>To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com> 
>>>Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:50 PM
>>>Subject: [Ibogaine] Question for Everyone
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks so much Sister! I appreciate your detailed, considerate email. 
>>>
>>>One thing I do want to say is that, when I asked in the past whether Ibogaine resets tolerance to baseline/zero, I meant that if someone was taking huge doses of opiates and then did a flood of Ibogaine, and then needed opiates two or three days later, would his tolerance be back to zero. Not if one waited a few months, since that wouldn't prove anything other than that time reset the tolerance. So I meant that if someone was safely adminstered opiates two or three days after Ibogaine, would his tolerance be reset. 
>>>
>>>Just wanted to point that out.
>>>
>>>I am pasting the question I asked on Friday again, in case anyone else has any answer....
>>>
>>>Here is the question again:
>>>
>>>Here is the scenario:
>>>
>>>Someone is dependent on a very large dose of painkillers. He has a pain condition, but wants to stay off opiates if possible. So he does Ibogaine. The dose of Ibogaine he is given is a reasonable one, such as 16mg. or 18mg. per kilogram of body weight, plus a booster a few days later of 4.5mg. per kilogram. Altogether, that's a reasonable dose. However, after the Ibogaine, he feels really bad. Like he is still in partial withdrawal. Chills, restlessness, and bad depression. That lasts for a long time. The depression lasted for months, until he went onto opiates, and the physical symptoms for weeks.
>>>
>>>Also, it has to be taken into account that he was taking a nerve pain medicine called a ketamine nasal spray for a long time, which he stopped two months before the Ibogaine treatment. However, the ketamine did make long term changes in his brain (brainwaves actually; and that was suspected because of bad cognitive function, proven by an MRI taken two years later). Ketamine is also an NMDA antagonist, as is Ibogaine, so perhaps that caused the Ibogaine to not work totally on the withdrawal (and whether the long term changes from the ketamine would cause the same now, or since he has been off it several years, it would not cause that, is unknown).
>>>
>>>Two months later, he took opiates again, and his tolerance was way down, but that is always the case after two months off opiates.
>>>
>>>So the question is as follows.
>>>
>>>Does the fact that he had those residual withdrawal symptoms (both physical and mental) for months after the Ibogaine treatment, does that prove that the Ibogaine did not "reset" his receptors, and more importantly, "reset" his tolerance, or is the residual withdrawal NOT a sign that his tolerance was not reset. 
>>>
>>>People have said that reasonably strong withdrawal after Ibogaine is not totally uncommon, and also, it can be that his endorphins didn't build up, hence the withdrawal, but still, the tolerance and receptors would still be reset.
>>>
>>>Do you think that the withdrawal after the Ibogaine proves that his receptors and tolerance was not reset, or does one have nothing to do with the other?
>>>
>>>Thanks very much! 
>>>
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