[Ibogaine] Updated extracton of Iboga alkaloids from rootbark, with added measurements..(Chris?)
helpful_hopeful at yahoo.com
Sun Feb 21 23:49:27 EST 2010
Yeah, I was going for the complete total alkaloid profile as pure as possible, mixed in the proper ratios, similar to an extract that can be done on the Trichocereus bridgesii cactus. It has a high level of mescaline, but also several other alkaloids and some even mild MAOI-like alkaloids that enhance the experience tremendously.
By doing an extraction with d-limonene, then salting it with various acids, it pulls a total alkaloid extract that can be mixed equally to yield a pure Total Active Alkaloid extract capturing all the actives from the cactus, while removing all the plant material, so it was just like making a cactus tea, without having to ingest any of that nasty bitter mucous-y tea!
I posted my replies after your quotes to make it easier to follow..
> From: Chris Jenks <chris at jenks.us>
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Updated extracton of Iboga alkaloids from rootbark, with added measurements..(Chris?)
> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 7:58 PM
> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010, Helpful Hopeful wrote:
> > I just added that trying to add a tad more HCl after
> harvesting their 1st precipitation of crystals wouldn't hurt
> and just in case they used a varying strengths of muriatic
> acid which can vary in percentage from different sources
> (28%-36%), adding another couple drops after the first
> harvest of crystals may pull out a hair more. If not,
> then no harm.
> Actually, I just reread my own procedure, and at the
> point the acetone becomes acidic I added 8% more HCl. Still,
> if you keep track of the volume then the exact strength of
> HCl shouldn't hurt as long as it is strong (around 30%). I
> agree with you, if you are unsure you can always add more
> HCl after filtering the PTA HCl.
Yes, that was my point, except I didn't measure the same way. Instead I was figuring with the pKa of ibogaine being 8.1, at 6.1 99% of the ibogaine should be ionized into ibogaine HCl. I don't know the pKa's for the other alkaloids, but imagine they could be very similar, however, I am not sure. This should still pull out all the ibogaine HCl, though..
> > I figured recovering the Residual alkaloids would be
> even more pure than the first filtrate from salting the
> acetone with HCl, since in your tek some of them are left in
> the acetone. When the acetone is evaporated, it leaves
> an oil. In your tek it says that dissolving it in
> water and adding more ammonia will precipitate these
> residual alkaloids (freebases are not soluble in water), and
> they should be in a more pure state, but a stable solid of
> freebase alkaloids.
> You're using "pure" here differently than I would.
> The RA is less pure than PTA in terms of percent ibogaine,
> but it looks a lot better then the TA, being a ten or yellow
I figured the RA, that you referred to, was actual alkaloids, maybe some unknowns, tabernanthine(sp?), etc, or whatever, since they behaved like alkaloids in solution. I am not sure how much each residual alkaloid is active, if at all, but to get a Pure Total Alkaloid extract, even possibly synergistic alkaloids that may not be active alone, by recovering these alkaloids, and mixing them in the proper ratio to the ibogaine/ibogamine/ibogaline HCl, you would technically have a Purified TOTAL Alkaloid extract (or the new TAA). So yes, I suppose we just use the same terms a hair different. :-)
> > By rinsing this well with distilled water, letting it
> dry, and adding this solid to the ibogaine HCl and whatever
> ibogaline/ibogamine HCl is mixed in with the
> filtrate/precipitate from the first acetone salting (unless
> you recrystallize it in boiling ethanol, should give a
> purified total alkaloid extract of utmost purity. I
> figured this will be as pure and complete a PTA as you can
> possibly get, with the full range of alkaloids, for those
> that prefer getting all the alkaloids in the plant.
> I misunderstood you the first time. I thought you
> meant to mix RA with recrystallized, pure ibogaine, which
> would be rather silly. What I think you are suggesting is to
> mix the PTA HCl with the RA in the same proportion they came
> out of the TA, giving the same active alkaloid profile
> without the ugly inert black material. I think this is
> brilliant, and I hope it catches on, because it would be
> almost as efficient as eating the root itself while being
> much less unpleasant, and probably easier to measure the
> dose as you suggest, since you don't need to guess how much
> inactive material you have in the TA. I honestly never
> thought of this, and it shows me you've mastered this area
> of chemistry. You'll need to name this new invention too,
> maybe Total Active Alkaloid (TAA)?
Yes, this is exactly what I was meaning for getting a Purified TOTAL Alkaloid Extract, or yes a TAA, Total Active Alkaloid extract.
I just added how to recrystallize the ibogaine HCl, like in your tek to make a more pure ibogaine HCl, for those who wanted it isolated from the other alkaloids. This is not the desire of most of my friends, and the reason I went on to make the PTAA mix.
> > Like I said, I was going for utmost purity and maximum
> yield of the full range of alkaloids, because among my group
> of small iboga enthusiasts, it has been important to them
> that they receive a PTA, to get the full "spirit" of the
> plant, with as little extra/unwanteds, as possible.
> Realistically, aside from dosing accuracy and number
> of capsules, TA should have exactly the same effects as TAA.
> I've eaten a gram of the "spent alkaloid" left after
> extracting the TA with acetone, and there were no effects at
> all. This also confirms that there was no significant
> ibogaine left unextracted. But having a light yellow powder
> of known dosage in fewer capsules is an excellent
> improvement. I hope you don't mind if I spread the word.
Well, I am confused what you mean by spent alkaloids (insoluble plant gunk?). If you mean the residual recovered alkaloids do not add to the effects or do not have any effect at all, then I would imagine they are useless and should be discarded.
If you mean (what I think you mean) the insoluble gunk left on the filter after washing with acetone, then, yes I agree it probably doesn't matter much for dosing with freebase, however, for those wanting the purest TAA, then I think the (P)TAA that I proposed would be the best way. The reason being, for my friends, they believe the total active alkaloid spectrum is the best way to experience the full "spirit" of the plant without having to deal with any plant material.
I would think another benefit would be even more accurate dosing, since you could know the exact weight of all the active alkaloids, rather than having to guesstimate judging by how much bark you extracted. Also, it would eliminate the worry of one bark being stronger or weaker, or possibly having more fats or tannins, or whatever.
If it was more pure (as I suggested), and you knew how much of each part of the mix, like the weight of the PTA versus the weight of the RA, mixed in as pure form as possible, you would have a better idea of exactly how much of each alkaloid mix was taken, to really be able to accurately dose people. This would be especially good for those making a large batch, to mix them uniformly for very even standardized (P)TAA..
Thanks a bunch Chris, and you are more than welcome to share any and all of my teks or ideas with anyone in the community, as long as you promise to keep me abreast of any developments. I really want to be a part of the movement, but at the moment I need as much privacy as I can, ya know? ;-)
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