[Ibogaine] Is ibogaine treatment devolving?
psychonaut101 at gmail.com
Sun Sep 27 14:36:47 EDT 2009
What label can we robe ourselves with and try to "be" when not from the
heart doesn't turn us into total idiots?
On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Douglas Fraser <
doug_fraser at microcinema.com> wrote:
> g. bunnie wrote:
>> that's funny 'finally noticed'? the entire history of ibogaine is ego
>> lawsuits and money, to borrow Patric's line 'another day in the
>> soap opera'. what's new to my understanding is that ibogaine access has
>> filtered down to the plain ol' dumb and incompetent, joined in by the
>> oil salesmen who either are selling ibogaine while not having any
>> or claiming to be great bwiti healers since that's probably easier to pull
>> off then pretending to know what you're talking about if you're stupid.
> ok, I retract "finally".... good grief. your last sentence is more along
> the lines of what I was trying to express - the total idiots are now out in
> force. 5 years ago, you could not say this, or at least I wouldn't have
> said it, though I heard all about Mash and etc etc.
>> On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Douglas Fraser <
>> doug_fraser at microcinema.com
>> The evil spirit of capitalism has finally noticed ibogaine, it seems....
>>> unfortunately there is no 100% effective the first time drug that will
>>> with the dark side of human nature and all the shit people like to
>>> out into the world
>>> Jeffrey Gartner wrote:
>>> The science certainly has not moved forward much, the clinical trials
>>>> within the US or elsewhere, which are always arriving at any moment or
>>>> already starting, never arrive. I don't know who all the talking heads
>>>> on YouTube are but they're blathering nonsense instead of science and if
>>>> these are the individuals treating patients, that's quite scary.
>>>> I don't bow down to anybody with a PhD or MD because most of them are
>>>> fools as well, but in the past even if people who spoke about ibogaine
>>>> or treated others were self taught (Howard Lotsoff, Patrick Krupa, Dana
>>>> Beal, Marc Emery), what they said at least made some sort of sense and
>>>> if an MD asked a question, they were able to intelligently answer it. I
>>>> am not seeing that anymore, the "medical subculture" Dr. Alper described
>>>> is turning into a pack of uneducated and inconsistent amateurs at best,
>>>> rip offs and snake oil salesmen at worst.
>>>> If ibogaine had an image problem, it's getting a lot worse. It's sad.
>>>> "Ok some of the old guard were not the nicest people but you did not
>>>> feel like they were covered in snake oil or even worse just plain
>>>> incompetent" that one hit home. Since nobody normal ever seems to end up
>>>> involved with ibogaine, my vote goes to meglomaniacal arrogant lunatics
>>>> with high IQs over shady or just plain dumb, anyday. Especially the day
>>>> my life depends on one of these people.
>>>> ________________________________ From: fallen eden
>>>> <falleneden1 at gmail.com> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 9:19:39 AM Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Is
>>>> ibogaine treatment devolving?
>>>> I've noticed the same kinds of things.. but not too many people are bold
>>>> enough to mention it, or don't want to start any more fights.. I did
>>>> notice a lot of the "recycled text" from site to site, and then on the
>>>> other end more "snake oil" type representations that would appeal to
>>>> some people, but make others think ibogaine treatment is just a scam
>>>> like I used to think it was.
>>>> I'm not sure if treatment is devolving but it's a good point to make.. I
>>>> think more word has gotten out about ibogaine, and perhaps that has
>>>> something to do with it rather than 10 years ago when it was way more
>>>> obscure. "The collection of people starting to represent ibogaine is
>>>> giving me the creeps"- I really have to commend you for saying that,
>>>> because it's starting to creep me out too.. as well as other people..
>>>> but no one has really spoken up about it because I don't think many of
>>>> us want to rock the boat too much. I don't mean all people that
>>>> represent ibogaine, but certain places or groups I agree are starting to
>>>> get on the creepy side.. While on that topic, the whole "hierarchical
>>>> cult" mentality that some groups have has started to worry me too. I've
>>>> been given the impression before- or actually just flat out told- by
>>>> certain people that they think they have some kind of exclusive control
>>>> over ibogaine, as if they "own" it. Other people have told me that
>>>> they've also been told those same kinds of things.. How exactly can
>>>> someone claim to have exclusive control over a plant? It's one thing to
>>>> regulate treatment centers and such for health reasons and safety, but
>>>> no one ever gave me the impression that this "control" was because of
>>>> health and safety- it just frankly seems like some kind of ego trip.
>>>> Thanks for putting this out there.. I know there are quite a few other
>>>> people thinking the same thing. Of course not everywhere is creepy, but
>>>> some groups are getting a little weird.. I noticed that Bwiti is
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