[Ibogaine] Ibogaine Digest, Vol 13, Issue 99

Jeremy Spence jlspence at mac.com
Wed Jan 21 13:32:03 EST 2009


I would say its a slight risk, that all i would say about it. But then  
again there are risk to everything in life.






On Jan 21, 2009, at 11:10 AM, ibogaine-request at mindvox.com wrote:

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>   1. Re: Ibogaine Digest, Vol 13, Issue 98 (Jeremy Spence)
>   2. Re: Ibogaine Digest, Vol 13, Issue 98 (simon loxton)
>   3. Re: Contents of Ibogaine digest... (James Forristal)
>   4. Re: Ibogaine Digest, Vol 13, Issue 98 (James Forristal)
>   5. Re: Ibogaine in the Netherlands (Preston Peet)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:35:29 -0600
> From: Jeremy Spence <jlspence at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine Digest, Vol 13, Issue 98
> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> Message-ID: <B011D4EE-B7F8-403B-9D59-ADF7DF0E9D92 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Yea, I dont know, I guess death could tech happen at any time during
> the course of treatment??? It is a risk, I'm sorry to say.......
> But then again, death can happen if you are on junk too!!! So I mean,
> WTF.  You can die from walking down the street too!!
>
> But I am sure iboga is hard on the heart, if one is not use to speed
> type things. I don't know how i am still alive after all the dumb shit
> I did??????  That a good damm question?? it kind like how does a
> person, one my old friend, take less then half then me and die, and
> then me take a extremely crazy amount and live with no after effects??
> I mean, you can't really call it???
>
> I think that flood dose shit, can be a bit over too much for some
> people...  If it were me, and would want to be given my doses in small
> bits until I felt ok, I can go father. That's just me. That how i
> would take it.
> Yea, and lot of back of xanax too, just in case I freak the fuck out.
> Which i am sure can happen. Yea, I thought the shit was like other
> stuff too, but its not!! it has to be very, very respected.
>
> 3.5 gram of extract may be a bit much for a small person, and a women
> I would think might need a lower dose. It better to under shoot and be
> safe then to over shoot and be dead.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:42:28 +0000 (GMT)
> From: simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine Digest, Vol 13, Issue 98
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Message-ID: <368438.75848.qm at web28605.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I dont see it as that life threatening; also if you underdose with a  
> patient being treated for opiates they are going to be quite  
> uncomfortable.
>
> I think the main thing to look at is if some one has existing  
> conditions which may effect the treatment or increase risk.
>
> The problem with the "they could die on drugs anyway" argument is  
> that you're in serious trouble if some one dies during treatment; in  
> Gabon its jail time. Here there would be mitigating circumstances  
> but I would not want to be stuck with the responsibility.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jeremy Spence <jlspence at mac.com>
> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009 16:35:29
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine Digest, Vol 13, Issue 98
>
> Yea, I dont know, I guess death could tech happen at any time during  
> the course of treatment??? It is a risk, I'm sorry to say.......
> But then again, death can happen if you are on junk too!!! So I  
> mean, WTF.  You can die from walking down the street too!!
>
> But I am sure iboga is hard on the heart, if one is not use to speed  
> type things. I don't know how i am still alive after all the dumb  
> shit I did??????  That a good damm question?? it kind like how does  
> a person, one my old friend, take less then half then me and die,  
> and then me take a extremely crazy amount and live with no after  
> effects?? I mean, you can't really call it???
>
> I think that flood dose shit, can be a bit over too much for some  
> people...  If it were me, and would want to be given my doses in  
> small bits until I felt ok, I can go father. That's just me. That  
> how i would take it.
> Yea, and lot of back of xanax too, just in case I freak the fuck  
> out.  Which i am sure can happen. Yea, I thought the shit was like  
> other stuff too, but its not!! it has to be very, very respected.
>
> 3.5 gram of extract may be a bit much for a small person, and a  
> women I would think might need a lower dose. It better to under  
> shoot and be safe then to over shoot and be dead.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:47:22 -0800
> From: James Forristal <psychonaut101 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Contents of Ibogaine digest...
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Message-ID:
> 	<108a1b7d0901210847ga99565fw15717bd54f180b20 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Yes, I was still pretty heavy at the time I did the supposed Iboga  
> root bark
> so I took a reasonable average of the suspected Iboga alkaloid  
> content and
> figured that 33 grams should have been a visionary dose.  Then I  
> made the
> extract and drank it in in doses about 20 mins between each few  
> ounces of
> liquid.  I'd done Ibogaine HCL once before at that time but due to  
> financial
> reasons I needed the next experience to be less expensive if I was  
> going to
> use it.  Because of that I took the chance and attempted to be as  
> careful as
> possible in the way I went about ingesting it.  I've had a bit of  
> experience
> making crude extracts from plants over the years so I felt the risk  
> was
> reasonable as far as health concerns go.  NOW, thinking that a  
> psychonaut at
> the sells counter of shamanic-extracts would boast so loudly about the
> quality of their iboga when they actually very well of may not even  
> had a
> clue what it was at all was beyond me.  I'm kind of not sure how to  
> feel
> about that, I just hope they have their act together now.  V.  
> africana is no
> joke, it's very hard on the system, especially at those doses.
> I was in a particular situation where it looked as though they were  
> the
> people that would work with me on my quest to improve my head space  
> from the
> years of abuse and depression I'd gone though.  I felt like a fish  
> out of
> water in this land of exploitation and self-centered acquisition of  
> profit,
> ending up spending most of my 20's medicating away a the pain of
> self destruction in a reality (internal and external) I didn't know  
> how to
> feel ethically whole with.  Ibogaine helped open the doors of my  
> heart again
> and gave me the freedom to embrace life once again, the motivation
> to attempt to create a space in this life that I trusted, the  
> intentionality
> to become a person that wasn't self hating.  I needed more  
> experience with
> it, it's a continuing process for me.
>
> In my last Ibogaine experience I was told the HCL that was used was  
> the TPA
> of Iboga root bark at 13mg/kg fallowed by a 7mg/kg post ibogaine  
> dose the
> fallowing morning, it was a hellishly intimate journey into myself.  
> So I
> guess I've had experience with pure Ibogaine and the TPA from the  
> iboga root
> bark and I can't say there was much of a difference, the quality of  
> the
> visions was unique during the second experience, full of distortion  
> and pain
> but that is something I attribute to my state of being at the time  
> more than
> to the iboga itself.
>
> The holotropic mirror of a reality WE create.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:03:23 -0800
> From: James Forristal <psychonaut101 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine Digest, Vol 13, Issue 98
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Message-ID:
> 	<108a1b7d0901210903s62f5ae4chb54e63dbaefef9ee at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I've noticed that after I do ibogaine my caffeine sensitivities are at
> baseline, due to this I'm guessing ibogaine also has some effect on  
> the
> androstene receptors.  Being these are the receptors that also  
> control heart
> function, could this be where some people are getting into trouble  
> with
> ibogaine?  If so is there some sort of regulating molecule of these
> receptors that can be used to maybe mitigate this  effect.    Errrr  
> this is
> complete speculation but just wondering, has there been any research  
> in this
> area at all?
> James
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:10:07 -0800 (PST)
> From: Preston Peet <prestonpeet at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine in the Netherlands
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Message-ID: <881208.16323.qm at web63006.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Six or eight MONTHS ago? Wha?!?
> I'd not heard of this. I had been told by her about one not long  
> before my own last visit to her place in Winter 2006 (Jan.). I'm not  
> exactly sure when it had actually taken place, but it was before I  
> got there in the beginning of '06.
> Anyway, more info would be appreciated.
> Peace and love.
> Preston
>
> ?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Matt Shriver <ibogamail at gmail.com>
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:46:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine in the Netherlands
>
> Lee Albert also put together some info on this although I don't  
> think he has updated it in a while now.? http://www.myeboga.com/fatalities.html
>
> I think there have been upwards of 20 deaths at this point though,  
> probably more when you include the ones that go under the media  
> radar.? A self treatment death would look like just another junkie  
> OD.? And I would guess that some providers are probably not anxious  
> to have deaths in their care become public knowledge.? I believe  
> Sara had a death at her place 6 or 8 months ago that never made any  
> news for example.
>
> Matt
>
> Charles Rossouw wrote:
> Pleasure
>
> Unfortunately I don't have it with me now.? I'll send it to you off- 
> list in a few hours.
>
> Charles
>
>
> 2009/1/21 Brad Hays <bradleyheathhays at gmail.com>
>
> Much obliged kind Charles.? Anybody know Ken's email?
>
>
>
> 2009/1/21 Charles Rossouw <charles.rossouw at gmail.com>
>
>
> Hi Brad
>
> Dr Ken Alper has been working a this project.
>
> Regards
>
> Charles
>
> 2009/1/21 Brad Hays <bradleyheathhays at gmail.com>
>
>
> Has anyone been able to gather all the autopsy reports of the dozen  
> or so people that are thought to have died from an ibogaine  
> treatment?? I'm mostly interested in finding out on average, how  
> long into a treatment do these arrhythmia problems tend to occur.?  
> Does this problem usually show up soon after the flood dose, or can  
> it occur many hours into the treatment?? Even though this is a rare  
> event, it would be good for our providers to understand the  
> mechanisms and tendencies of this particular kind of problem.
> ?
>
>
> 2009/1/19 sitkaa <athabaskana at gmail.com>
>
> (For me) It would be fascinating to hear about the woman's  
> experience from her perspective. Was her near-(physical)-death  
> integrated into her psycho-spiritual experience, or did it interupt  
> what she had goin on? Would Sarah be willing to ask her to write up  
> her experience, and post it here?
>
>
> 2009/1/19 Mindvox <mindvox at lunartproductions.com>
>
>
> Near-fatal treatment in the Netherlands...
>
> Links:
>
> http://www.artsennet.nl/content/resources//AMGATE_6059_1_TICH_R2438011050651223//
>
>
> ? ? ? ?'Afkickmedicijn' iboga?ne veroorzaakt hartritmestoornis
> Bron(nen): UMC Utrecht
>
> Smart drug en 'afkickmedicijn' iboga?ne kan dodelijke hartritme  
> stoornissen veroorzaken. Dit schrijven artsen van het UMC Utrecht in  
> een case report in het tijdschrift New England Journal of Medicine  
> van 15 januari. Ze verklaren daarmee als eerste de schadelijkheid  
> van het omstreden middel.
>
> In het case report beschrijven internisten een 31-jarige Amerikaanse  
> vrouw die op de spoedeisende hulp van het UMC Utrecht kwam nadat zij  
> onwel was geworden na het gebruik van iboga?ne. Dit had zij gebruikt  
> om van haar alcoholverslaving af te komen. Tijdens haar behandeling  
> op de spoedeisende hulp kreeg zij een ernstige hartritmestoornis.  
> Het duurde bijna twee dagen voordat de hartritmestoornis was  
> verdwenen. Het verband tussen het gebruik van iboga?ne en het  
> optreden van de hartritmestoornis ligt volgens de artsen van het UMC  
> Utrecht voor de hand.
>
> Iboga? vrij verkrijgbaar
> Iboga?ne is in een beperkt aantal landen, waaronder Nederland, vrij  
> verkrijgbaar. Het wordt gebruikt als smart drug. Daarnaast claimen  
> alternatieve genezers en sommige artsen dat een eenmalige dosis van  
> het middel mensen van hun drugs- of alcoholverslaving af kan helpen.  
> Voor dit effect bestaan weliswaar wetenschappelijke aanwijzingen bij  
> proefdieren, grootschalige onderzoeken bij mensen ontbreken echter.  
> Onderzoek naar iboga?ne is lastig omdat het middel levensgevaarlijk  
> kan zijn. Het is bekend dat gebruikers van iboga?ne soms overlijden.  
> Waardoor dat komt was tot nu toe onduidelijk.
>
> Hulpmiddel afkicken
> "Ibogaine wordt momenteel in Nederland gebruikt als hulpmiddel bij  
> het afkicken in situaties zonder medisch toezicht waardoor het juist  
> levensbedreigend kan zijn", concludeert internist-endocrinoloog dr.  
> Gerlof Valk van het UMC Utrecht, ??n van de internisten betrokken  
> bij de opvang van de pati?nt. "De risico's voor de gezondheid gelden  
> zowel voor de toepassing als smart drug, maar ook voor het gebruik  
> als afkickmiddel. Wij vinden dat iboga?ne alleen onder medisch  
> toezicht gebruikt mag worden voor therapeutische doeleinden."
>
> De artsen hebben de iboga?ne-vergiftiging gemeld bij de Inspectie  
> voor de Gezondheidszorg.
>
>
> Translation:
>
> ? ? ? ?Detox-medicine iboga?ne cause heart rhythm impairment
> Source (nen): UMC Utrecht
>
> Smart drug and `detox-medicine' iboga?ne can cause deadly heart  
> rhythm impairments. This letter doctors of the UMC Utrecht in a case  
> report in the illustrated magazine New England Journal or Medicine  
> of 15 January. They explain with that as first the harmfulness of  
> the controversial means.
>
> In case report internists describe a 31 year old American woman who  
> came on the emergency service of the UMC Utrecht after she had  
> become indisposed after the use of iboga?ne. This had they uses to  
> descend of its alcohol addiction. During its treatment on the  
> emergency service she got a serious heart rhythm impairment. It  
> lasted almost two days before the heart rhythm impairment had  
> disappeared. The link between the use of iboga?ne and acting the  
> heart rhythm impairment lies according to the doctors of the UMC  
> Utrecht for the hand.
>
> Iboga? rather available
> Iboga?ne are a number of countries limited in, among which the  
> Netherlands, rather available. It is used as smart drug. Moreover  
> alternative healers claim and some doctors that a one-off amount of  
> the means people of their drugs or alcohol addiction finished can  
> help. For this impact indeed scientific indications exist at test  
> animals, large-scale researches at people are lacking however. Study  
> into iboga?ne is cumbersome because the means can be perilous. It  
> has been confessed that users of iboga?ne die sometimes. How that  
> comes were so far unclear.
>
> Appliances kick the habit
> Ibogaine are at present used in the Netherlands as appliances at  
> kick the habit in situations without medical supervision as a result  
> of which it can be correctly life-threatening, internist  
> endocrinoloog conclude dr. Gerlof falcon of the UMC Utrecht, one of  
> the internists involved at the relief of the patient. The risk for  
> health applies both for the application and smart drug, but also for  
> the use as afkickmiddel. We find that iboga?ne can be only used  
> under medical supervision for therapeutic aims.
>
> The doctors have communicated iboga?ne poisoning at the inspection  
> for the health care.
>
>
>
>
> AND:
> http://www.trouw.nl/nieuws/Wetenschap/article1959054.ece/Afkickdrug_kan_dodelijk_uitpakken_.html
>
>
> ?Afkickdrug kan dodelijk uitpakken
>
> De iboga-wortel, een populair alternatief middel tegen verslaving,  
> kan dodelijke hartritmestoornissen geven. In Utrecht is een vrouw er  
> bijna aan overleden.
>
> Een 31-jarige Amerikaanse vrouw heeft ternauwernood een vergiftiging  
> met een extract van de Afrikaanse iboga-wortel overleefd. Ze was  
> speciaal naar Nederland gekomen om zich met dit sterk hallucinogene  
> middel, iboga?ne, te laten behandelen tegen haar alcoholverslaving.
>
> De drug, in de meeste landen verboden, is in Nederland toegestaan.  
> Hij wordt in het alternatieve circuit gebruikt, naar verluidt met  
> groot succes. Met ??n dosis iboga?ne raak je een paar dagen compleet  
> van de wereld. Als je wakker wordt, ben je clean, zo wil het verhaal.
>
> Maar bij de Amerikaanse liep het anders. Ze belandde op de intensive  
> care van het Universitair Medisch Centrum Utrecht, met ernstige  
> hartritmestoornissen die haar fataal dreigden te worden. Pas na twee  
> dagen herstelde het hart zich, melden haar artsen vandaag in het  
> vakblad The New England Journal of Medicine. Ze hebben de Inspectie  
> voor de Gezondheidszorg gewaarschuwd.
>
> ?Op zich kunnen we niet met zekerheid vaststellen dat iboga?ne de  
> oorzaak van de klachten was", relativeert de behandelend internist  
> Gerlof Valk. ?Maar de aanwijzingen zijn sterk. De klachten begonnen  
> kort na de inname en verdwenen een paar dagen later. De pati?nte had  
> verder geen middelen gebruikt. Lichamelijk konden we ook geen andere  
> verklaring vinden."
>
> De artsen noemen de vondst belangrijk omdat deze nieuw licht werpt  
> op de raadselachtige dood van elf eerdere iboga?ne-gebruikers. Zelfs  
> een autopsie heeft in die gevallen geen duidelijkheid gebracht over  
> de doodsoorzaak. Het bleef daardoor onzeker of de drug de boosdoener  
> was, of misschien de alcohol of iets anders wat de slachtoffers  
> tegelijkertijd hadden ingenomen.
>
> De nieuwe waarneming, waarbij de drug als het ware 'op heterdaad' is  
> betrapt, maakt het volgens de Utrechtse artsen een stuk  
> aannemelijker dat het middel zelf riskant is. Ze pleiten er daarom  
> voor om de stof voortaan alleen nog onder medische begeleiding en  
> onder permanente hartbewaking toe te dienen. Dat zou het gebruik  
> door alternatieve therapeuten sterk bemoeilijken.
>
> Overigens is het de vraag of iboga?ne echt zo fabelachtig tegen  
> verslaving werkt als alternatieve therapeuten beweren. ?Op internet  
> zijn allerlei filmpjes te zien van mensen die dankzij iboga?ne van  
> hun verslaving zijn afgekomen", zegt Valk. ?Maar hard  
> wetenschappelijk bewijs ontbreekt." Goed onderzoek met pati?nten is  
> nooit gedaan, onder meer vanwege twijfel over de veiligheid. Wel is  
> gekeken naar verslaafde ratjes; die toonden zich dankzij iboga?ne  
> inderdaad minder afhankelijk van morfine, coca?ne of alcohol.
>
> Hoeveel mensen zich tot nu toe met de drug hebben laten behandelen,  
> is onduidelijk. Het tv-programma 'Nova' repte in 2006 van duizenden  
> mensen wereldwijd, en van ruim 220 pati?nten die door de Nederlandse  
> therapeute Sara Glatt waren geholpen. In de uitzending stelde een  
> deskundige dat de reguliere verslavingszorg met iboga?ne een grote  
> kans liet liggen.
>
> Behalve als afkickmedicijn gebruiken sommigen de iboga-wortel als  
> smart drug, omdat hij zo'n intense en langdurige roes veroorzaakt.  
> Die diepe trance is ook de reden waarom Afrikaanse stammen de plant  
> inzetten tijdens riten.
>
>
> Translation:
>
> Detox-drug can unpack deadly
>
>
> Iboga-root, the popular alternative means against addiction, can  
> give deadly heart rhythm impairments. In Utrecht a woman is there  
> almost to deceased.
>
> A 31 year old American woman a poisoning with an extract of African  
> iboga-root has just survived. She especially to the Netherlands had  
> come with this strongly hallucinogenic means, iboga?ne, let treat  
> itself against its alcohol addiction.
>
> The drug, prohibited in the most countries, in the Netherlands it  
> has been permitted. He is used in the alternative circuit, according  
> to reports with large success. With one amount of iboga?ne touch you  
> a couple days completely of the world. If you become awake, be you  
> clean, this way it wants tale.
>
> But at American it ran differently. She ended up on the intensive  
> care of the university medical centre Utrecht, with serious heart  
> rhythm impairments which threatened become its fatally. Just after  
> two days repaired the heart, its doctors communicate themselves The  
> New England Journal or Medicine today in the profession booklet.  
> They have warned the inspection for the health care.
>
> ?In itself cannot determine we with certainty that iboga?ne were the  
> cause of the complaints, relativise the treating internist Gerlof  
> falcon. ?But the indications are strong. Days started the complaints  
> later shortly after ingestion and disappeared a couple. The patient  
> had further used no resources. Physically we could find other  
> declaration also no.
>
> The doctors call the find important because these throw slightly new  
> on enigmatic dead of eleven earlier iboga?ne users. Even an autopsy  
> has which fallen no clarity brought concerning the cause of death.  
> It remained uncertainly as a result, or the drug the cause was, or  
> perhaps the alcohol or something else what the victims had taken at  
> the same time.
>
> New perception, where the drug as it were has been caught, makes it  
> according to the Utrechtse doctors a piece more plausible that the  
> means himself is risky. They plead for this reason to administer the  
> substance as of now only still under medical accompaniment and under  
> permanent heart guarding. That it strongly would hamper use by  
> alternative therapists.
>
> Moreover it is the question if iboga?ne work really this way  
> fabulous against addiction such as alternative therapists claim. ?On  
> Internet are all kinds of see small films of people who have  
> descended thanks to iboga?ne of their addiction, say falcon. ?But  
> rapidly scientific proof are lacking. Well research with patients  
> has been never done, including because of doubt concerning the  
> security. However, it has been looked at to addictive little rats;  
> those showed themselves thanks to iboga?ne indeed less dependent on  
> morphine, cocaine or alcohol.
>
> How many people itself so far with the drug have let treat, is  
> unclear. The tv-programma Nova' mentioned in 2006, of thousands of  
> people worldwide, and of wide 220 patients who had been helped by  
> the Dutch therapist Sara Glatt. In the retransmission put to an  
> expert to that to the regular care and treatment of drug addicts  
> with iboga?ne to a large chance let lie.
>
> Except as detox-drug uses some iboga-root as smart drug, because he  
> causes such a intense and long-term fuddle. That deep trance is also  
> the reason why descends African the plant uses during rites.
>
>
> Translation is done through an online web translator, so as you just  
> read, it is not very accurate...
>
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Ben De Loenen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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