[Ibogaine] Ibogaine Digest, Vol 13, Issue 86

Jeremy Spence jlspence at mac.com
Mon Jan 19 19:53:16 EST 2009


Yea, and I would bet that most of these people that take iboga, or  
ibogaine and die, had horrible life styles in had major problem to  
start with, mainly the heart!!!

I eat pretty much 100% organic, now that I grew a fucking brain, and  
got smart about my health!!! and not let it be in the hands of a  
doctor!!!! I am in control dammit!!! not them!!! They think they are,  
but I am the one who watches out for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes,  
there are some pretty good doctors out there, yes there are, but I  
have the final say!!! I'm the one who watches my health in the end,  
not them.

I will admit, my doctor is pretty good to me, and he watches me very  
closely, but, I still feel I am the one who is in control of my health  
not him!!!

My heart is like a loin!!!  or a ox, I  should have died so many  
fucking times its sick!!! and I didn't. My heart just would fucking  
stop!!!! I injected so much shit hoping to end my life, only to end up  
waking up feeling  worse off.  I have friends die, on less 1/tenth of  
what I ever did!! I can't believe I am still alive after all the shit  
I done.

So after all that shit, If iboga kills me, then I will feel like, man  
it was just my time to go.......

.



On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:39 PM, ibogaine-request at mindvox.com wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Ibogain vs Iboga and safety, FDA trials (Charles Rossouw)
>   2. Re: Ibogaine Digest, Vol 13, Issue 85 (Jeremy Spence)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 01:20:38 +0200
> From: Charles Rossouw <charles.rossouw at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogain vs Iboga and safety, FDA trials
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Message-ID:
> 	<5966395b0901191520l12d61308me928b57356eeb60d at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> My reasoning makes it the opposite:  More unknowns makes it more  
> risky.
>
> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 9:29 PM, DC from AZ <dcollier9 at cox.net> wrote:
>
>> having said all that, isnt bwiti iboga use much safer than ibogaine
>> reference the cardiac data, and so therefore would be eligible for  
>> FDA
>> trials ?
>> the article mentions bwiti initiation usage, but does not  
>> differentiate
>> that one is root bark, the other is a high potency powder.
>> maybe iboga contains more alcoloids that provide a better effect  
>> and less
>> risk
>> ibogaine safety issues may box one into a corner, and should be very
>> careful of course. BUT
>> the usefullness of iboga in general has not been refuted. iboga  
>> being the
>> root bark or extract from same
>> we need more safety data from the bwiti per dosages etc
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Donzo
>> "Love converts hearts, and gives peace."
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vector Vector" <
>> vector620022002 at yahoo.com>
>> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine in the Netherlands
>>
>>
>>
>>> Yeah that's Sara's house?
>>>
>>> Much more in depth version of the same thing
>>>
>>> http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/360/3/308
>>>
>>> New England Journal of Medicine
>>>
>>> Volume 360:308-309        January 15, 2009        Number 3
>>> Next
>>> Long-QT Syndrome Induced by the Antiaddiction Drug Ibogaine
>>>
>>>  PubMed Citation
>>>
>>> To the Editor: Anecdotal evidence suggests that ibogaine  
>>> alleviates drug
>>> craving and relapse of drug use in humans, as has been confirmed for
>>> animals.1 Ibogaine is currently used as an antiaddiction drug in  
>>> alternative
>>> medicine. In 1993, the Food and Drug Administration approved a  
>>> clinical
>>> trial in humans to study those effects. The National Institute on  
>>> Drug Abuse
>>> decided not to fund this study because of safety issues.2,3
>>>
>>> Ibogaine is a naturally occurring alkaloid with hallucinogenic and
>>> psychedelic effects, derived from the bark of the root of the West  
>>> African
>>> Tabernanthe iboga plant and is used in Gabonian initiation  
>>> ceremonies. At
>>> least 11 sudden deaths were described after ibogaine use, in which  
>>> the cause
>>> of death remained unclear even after autopsy.4 It was hypothesized  
>>> that
>>> ibogaine might dysregulate the autonomic nervous system, causing  
>>> sudden
>>> death.5
>>>
>>> A 31-year-old American woman was admitted to our emergency  
>>> department
>>> because of a seizure-like attack after she had taken a single dose  
>>> of 3.5 g
>>> of ibogaine 15% (usual dose, 2 to 6 g). She had not taken any  
>>> other drugs or
>>> alcohol concurrently with the ibogaine. Her medical history was
>>> unremarkable, and there was no family history of cardiac-rhythm
>>> abnormalities. Besides nausea, she had no specific symptoms to  
>>> report. She
>>> had come to the Netherlands to receive ibogaine as an alternative  
>>> medicine
>>> for treatment-resistant alcohol addiction.
>>>
>>> Electrocardiography showed a severe prolonged QT interval of 548  
>>> msec (QT
>>> interval corrected for the heart rate, 616 msec) and ventricular
>>> tachyarrhythmias during prolonged monitoring (Figure 1).  
>>> Laboratory findings
>>> revealed mild hypomagnesemia (magnesium level, 0.49 mmol per liter  
>>> [1.2 mg
>>> per deciliter]; reference range, 0.70 to 1.00 [1.7 to 2.4]),  
>>> hypokalemia
>>> (potassium level, 3.2 mmol per liter [12.5 mg per deciliter];  
>>> reference
>>> range, 3.8 to 5.0 [14.9 to 19.5]), and a normal serum osmolal gap  
>>> (3.1 mOsm
>>> per kilogram; reference value, <10). Despite rapid correction of the
>>> electrolyte levels, the QT interval remained prolonged. During  
>>> admission to
>>> the intensive care unit, with no further doses of ibogaine given,  
>>> the QT
>>> interval normalized at 42 hours after presentation. The patient was
>>> subsequently discharged, in good condition.
>>>
>>> In this case, ibogaine use was associated with severe lengthening  
>>> of the
>>> QT interval and ventricular tachyarrhythmias, which normalized  
>>> after 42
>>> hours. These findings are suggestive of a causal relation. The  
>>> electrolyte
>>> imbalance may also have played a role. The previously described  
>>> sudden
>>> deaths may thus have been caused by cardiac-rhythm abnormalities  
>>> induced by
>>> QT-interval lengthening, ventricular tachyarrhythmias, or both.
>>>
>>> At the doses currently used, ibogaine can lead to serious cardiac- 
>>> rhythm
>>> abnormalities. The use and possible future trials of the drug  
>>> should be
>>> permitted only under strict medical observation and continuous
>>> electrocardiographic monitoring.
>>>
>>> Dianne W.M. Hoelen, M.D.
>>> Wilko Spiering, M.D., Ph.D.
>>> Gerlof D. Valk, M.D., Ph.D.
>>> University Medical Center Utrecht
>>> 3584 CX Utrecht, the Netherlands
>>> g.d.valk at umcutrecht.nl
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> He D-Y, McGough NNH, Ravindranathan A, et al. Glial cell line- 
>>> derived
>>> neurotrophic factor mediates the desirable actions of the anti- 
>>> addiction
>>> drug ibogaine against alcohol consumption. J Neurosci  
>>> 2005;25:619-628. [Free
>>> Full Text]
>>> Vastag B. Addiction treatment strives for legitimacy. JAMA  
>>> 2002;288:3096,
>>> 3099-101.
>>> Vastag B. Addiction research -- ibogaine therapy: a `vast,  
>>> uncontrolled
>>> experiment.' Science 2005;308:345-346. [Erratum, Science  
>>> 2005;308:1260.]
>>> [Free Full Text]
>>> Lotsof HS, Wachtel B. Manual for ibogaine therapy: screening,  
>>> safety,
>>> monitoring & aftercare. Second revision. The Ibogaine Dossier, 2003.
>>> (Accessed December 22, 2008, at http://www.ibogaine.org/ 
>>> manual.html.)
>>> Maas U, Strubelt S. Fatalities after taking ibogaine in addiction
>>> treatment could be related to sudden cardiac death caused by  
>>> autonomic
>>> dysfunction. Med Hypotheses 2006;67:960-964. [Medline]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Mindvox <mindvox at lunartproductions.com>
>>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 5:22:25 AM
>>> Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine in the Netherlands
>>>
>>> Near-fatal treatment in the Netherlands...
>>>
>>> Links:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.artsennet.nl/content/resources//AMGATE_6059_1_TICH_R2438011050651223//
>>>
>>>
>>>  'Afkickmedicijn' iboga?ne veroorzaakt hartritmestoornis
>>> Bron(nen): UMC Utrecht
>>>
>>> Smart drug en 'afkickmedicijn' iboga?ne kan dodelijke hartritme
>>> stoornissen veroorzaken. Dit schrijven artsen van het UMC Utrecht  
>>> in een
>>> case report in het tijdschrift New England Journal of Medicine van  
>>> 15
>>> januari. Ze verklaren daarmee als eerste de schadelijkheid van het  
>>> omstreden
>>> middel.
>>>
>>> In het case report beschrijven internisten een 31-jarige  
>>> Amerikaanse vrouw
>>> die op de spoedeisende hulp van het UMC Utrecht kwam nadat zij  
>>> onwel was
>>> geworden na het gebruik van iboga?ne. Dit had zij gebruikt om van  
>>> haar
>>> alcoholverslaving af te komen. Tijdens haar behandeling op de  
>>> spoedeisende
>>> hulp kreeg zij een ernstige hartritmestoornis. Het duurde bijna  
>>> twee dagen
>>> voordat de hartritmestoornis was verdwenen. Het verband tussen het  
>>> gebruik
>>> van iboga?ne en het optreden van de hartritmestoornis ligt volgens  
>>> de artsen
>>> van het UMC Utrecht voor de hand.
>>>
>>> Iboga? vrij verkrijgbaar
>>> Iboga?ne is in een beperkt aantal landen, waaronder Nederland, vrij
>>> verkrijgbaar. Het wordt gebruikt als smart drug. Daarnaast claimen
>>> alternatieve genezers en sommige artsen dat een eenmalige dosis  
>>> van het
>>> middel mensen van hun drugs- of alcoholverslaving af kan helpen.  
>>> Voor dit
>>> effect bestaan weliswaar wetenschappelijke aanwijzingen bij  
>>> proefdieren,
>>> grootschalige onderzoeken bij mensen ontbreken echter. Onderzoek  
>>> naar
>>> iboga?ne is lastig omdat het middel levensgevaarlijk kan zijn. Het  
>>> is bekend
>>> dat gebruikers van iboga?ne soms overlijden. Waardoor dat komt was  
>>> tot nu
>>> toe onduidelijk.
>>>
>>> Hulpmiddel afkicken
>>> "Ibogaine wordt momenteel in Nederland gebruikt als hulpmiddel bij  
>>> het
>>> afkicken in situaties zonder medisch toezicht waardoor het juist
>>> levensbedreigend kan zijn", concludeert internist-endocrinoloog  
>>> dr. Gerlof
>>> Valk van het UMC Utrecht, ??n van de internisten betrokken bij de  
>>> opvang van
>>> de pati?nt. "De risico's voor de gezondheid gelden zowel voor de  
>>> toepassing
>>> als smart drug, maar ook voor het gebruik als afkickmiddel. Wij  
>>> vinden dat
>>> iboga?ne alleen onder medisch toezicht gebruikt mag worden voor
>>> therapeutische doeleinden."
>>>
>>> De artsen hebben de iboga?ne-vergiftiging gemeld bij de Inspectie  
>>> voor de
>>> Gezondheidszorg.
>>>
>>>
>>> Translation:
>>>
>>>  Detox-medicine iboga?ne cause heart rhythm impairment
>>> Source (nen): UMC Utrecht
>>>
>>> Smart drug and `detox-medicine' iboga?ne can cause deadly heart  
>>> rhythm
>>> impairments. This letter doctors of the UMC Utrecht in a case  
>>> report in the
>>> illustrated magazine New England Journal or Medicine of 15  
>>> January. They
>>> explain with that as first the harmfulness of the controversial  
>>> means.
>>>
>>> In case report internists describe a 31 year old American woman  
>>> who came
>>> on the emergency service of the UMC Utrecht after she had become  
>>> indisposed
>>> after the use of iboga?ne. This had they uses to descend of its  
>>> alcohol
>>> addiction. During its treatment on the emergency service she got a  
>>> serious
>>> heart rhythm impairment. It lasted almost two days before the  
>>> heart rhythm
>>> impairment had disappeared. The link between the use of iboga?ne  
>>> and acting
>>> the heart rhythm impairment lies according to the doctors of the  
>>> UMC Utrecht
>>> for the hand.
>>>
>>> Iboga? rather available
>>> Iboga?ne are a number of countries limited in, among which the
>>> Netherlands, rather available. It is used as smart drug. Moreover
>>> alternative healers claim and some doctors that a one-off amount  
>>> of the
>>> means people of their drugs or alcohol addiction finished can  
>>> help. For this
>>> impact indeed scientific indications exist at test animals, large- 
>>> scale
>>> researches at people are lacking however. Study into iboga?ne is  
>>> cumbersome
>>> because the means can be perilous. It has been confessed that  
>>> users of
>>> iboga?ne die sometimes. How that comes were so far unclear.
>>>
>>> Appliances kick the habit
>>> Ibogaine are at present used in the Netherlands as appliances at  
>>> kick the
>>> habit in situations without medical supervision as a result of  
>>> which it can
>>> be correctly life-threatening, internist endocrinoloog conclude  
>>> dr. Gerlof
>>> falcon of the UMC Utrecht, one of the internists involved at the  
>>> relief of
>>> the patient. The risk for health applies both for the application  
>>> and smart
>>> drug, but also for the use as afkickmiddel. We find that iboga?ne  
>>> can be
>>> only used under medical supervision for therapeutic aims.
>>>
>>> The doctors have communicated iboga?ne poisoning at the inspection  
>>> for the
>>> health care.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> AND:
>>>
>>> http://www.trouw.nl/nieuws/Wetenschap/article1959054.ece/Afkickdrug_kan_dodelijk_uitpakken_.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Afkickdrug kan dodelijk uitpakken
>>>
>>> De iboga-wortel, een populair alternatief middel tegen verslaving,  
>>> kan
>>> dodelijke hartritmestoornissen geven. In Utrecht is een vrouw er  
>>> bijna aan
>>> overleden.
>>>
>>> Een 31-jarige Amerikaanse vrouw heeft ternauwernood een  
>>> vergiftiging met
>>> een extract van de Afrikaanse iboga-wortel overleefd. Ze was  
>>> speciaal naar
>>> Nederland gekomen om zich met dit sterk hallucinogene middel,  
>>> iboga?ne, te
>>> laten behandelen tegen haar alcoholverslaving.
>>>
>>> De drug, in de meeste landen verboden, is in Nederland toegestaan.  
>>> Hij
>>> wordt in het alternatieve circuit gebruikt, naar verluidt met  
>>> groot succes.
>>> Met ??n dosis iboga?ne raak je een paar dagen compleet van de  
>>> wereld. Als je
>>> wakker wordt, ben je clean, zo wil het verhaal.
>>>
>>> Maar bij de Amerikaanse liep het anders. Ze belandde op de  
>>> intensive care
>>> van het Universitair Medisch Centrum Utrecht, met ernstige
>>> hartritmestoornissen die haar fataal dreigden te worden. Pas na  
>>> twee dagen
>>> herstelde het hart zich, melden haar artsen vandaag in het vakblad  
>>> The New
>>> England Journal of Medicine. Ze hebben de Inspectie voor de  
>>> Gezondheidszorg
>>> gewaarschuwd.
>>>
>>> ?Op zich kunnen we niet met zekerheid vaststellen dat iboga?ne de  
>>> oorzaak
>>> van de klachten was", relativeert de behandelend internist Gerlof  
>>> Valk.
>>> ?Maar de aanwijzingen zijn sterk. De klachten begonnen kort na de  
>>> inname en
>>> verdwenen een paar dagen later. De pati?nte had verder geen middelen
>>> gebruikt. Lichamelijk konden we ook geen andere verklaring vinden."
>>>
>>> De artsen noemen de vondst belangrijk omdat deze nieuw licht werpt  
>>> op de
>>> raadselachtige dood van elf eerdere iboga?ne-gebruikers. Zelfs een  
>>> autopsie
>>> heeft in die gevallen geen duidelijkheid gebracht over de  
>>> doodsoorzaak. Het
>>> bleef daardoor onzeker of de drug de boosdoener was, of misschien  
>>> de alcohol
>>> of iets anders wat de slachtoffers tegelijkertijd hadden ingenomen.
>>>
>>> De nieuwe waarneming, waarbij de drug als het ware 'op heterdaad' is
>>> betrapt, maakt het volgens de Utrechtse artsen een stuk  
>>> aannemelijker dat
>>> het middel zelf riskant is. Ze pleiten er daarom voor om de stof  
>>> voortaan
>>> alleen nog onder medische begeleiding en onder permanente  
>>> hartbewaking toe
>>> te dienen. Dat zou het gebruik door alternatieve therapeuten sterk
>>> bemoeilijken.
>>>
>>> Overigens is het de vraag of iboga?ne echt zo fabelachtig tegen  
>>> verslaving
>>> werkt als alternatieve therapeuten beweren. ?Op internet zijn  
>>> allerlei
>>> filmpjes te zien van mensen die dankzij iboga?ne van hun  
>>> verslaving zijn
>>> afgekomen", zegt Valk. ?Maar hard wetenschappelijk bewijs  
>>> ontbreekt." Goed
>>> onderzoek met pati?nten is nooit gedaan, onder meer vanwege  
>>> twijfel over de
>>> veiligheid. Wel is gekeken naar verslaafde ratjes; die toonden  
>>> zich dankzij
>>> iboga?ne inderdaad minder afhankelijk van morfine, coca?ne of  
>>> alcohol.
>>>
>>> Hoeveel mensen zich tot nu toe met de drug hebben laten  
>>> behandelen, is
>>> onduidelijk. Het tv-programma 'Nova' repte in 2006 van duizenden  
>>> mensen
>>> wereldwijd, en van ruim 220 pati?nten die door de Nederlandse  
>>> therapeute
>>> Sara Glatt waren geholpen. In de uitzending stelde een deskundige  
>>> dat de
>>> reguliere verslavingszorg met iboga?ne een grote kans liet liggen.
>>>
>>> Behalve als afkickmedicijn gebruiken sommigen de iboga-wortel als  
>>> smart
>>> drug, omdat hij zo'n intense en langdurige roes veroorzaakt. Die  
>>> diepe
>>> trance is ook de reden waarom Afrikaanse stammen de plant inzetten  
>>> tijdens
>>> riten.
>>>
>>>
>>> Translation:
>>>
>>> Detox-drug can unpack deadly
>>>
>>>
>>> Iboga-root, the popular alternative means against addiction, can  
>>> give
>>> deadly heart rhythm impairments. In Utrecht a woman is there  
>>> almost to
>>> deceased.
>>>
>>> A 31 year old American woman a poisoning with an extract of African
>>> iboga-root has just survived. She especially to the Netherlands  
>>> had come
>>> with this strongly hallucinogenic means, iboga?ne, let treat  
>>> itself against
>>> its alcohol addiction.
>>>
>>> The drug, prohibited in the most countries, in the Netherlands it  
>>> has been
>>> permitted. He is used in the alternative circuit, according to  
>>> reports with
>>> large success. With one amount of iboga?ne touch you a couple days
>>> completely of the world. If you become awake, be you clean, this  
>>> way it
>>> wants tale.
>>>
>>> But at American it ran differently. She ended up on the intensive  
>>> care of
>>> the university medical centre Utrecht, with serious heart rhythm  
>>> impairments
>>> which threatened become its fatally. Just after two days repaired  
>>> the heart,
>>> its doctors communicate themselves The New England Journal or  
>>> Medicine today
>>> in the profession booklet. They have warned the inspection for the  
>>> health
>>> care.
>>>
>>> ?In itself cannot determine we with certainty that iboga?ne were  
>>> the cause
>>> of the complaints, relativise the treating internist Gerlof  
>>> falcon. ?But the
>>> indications are strong. Days started the complaints later shortly  
>>> after
>>> ingestion and disappeared a couple. The patient had further used no
>>> resources. Physically we could find other declaration also no.
>>>
>>> The doctors call the find important because these throw slightly  
>>> new on
>>> enigmatic dead of eleven earlier iboga?ne users. Even an autopsy  
>>> has which
>>> fallen no clarity brought concerning the cause of death. It remained
>>> uncertainly as a result, or the drug the cause was, or perhaps the  
>>> alcohol
>>> or something else what the victims had taken at the same time.
>>>
>>> New perception, where the drug as it were has been caught, makes it
>>> according to the Utrechtse doctors a piece more plausible that the  
>>> means
>>> himself is risky. They plead for this reason to administer the  
>>> substance as
>>> of now only still under medical accompaniment and under permanent  
>>> heart
>>> guarding. That it strongly would hamper use by alternative  
>>> therapists.
>>>
>>> Moreover it is the question if iboga?ne work really this way  
>>> fabulous
>>> against addiction such as alternative therapists claim. ?On  
>>> Internet are all
>>> kinds of see small films of people who have descended thanks to  
>>> iboga?ne of
>>> their addiction, say falcon. ?But rapidly scientific proof are  
>>> lacking. Well
>>> research with patients has been never done, including because of  
>>> doubt
>>> concerning the security. However, it has been looked at to  
>>> addictive little
>>> rats; those showed themselves thanks to iboga?ne indeed less  
>>> dependent on
>>> morphine, cocaine or alcohol.
>>>
>>> How many people itself so far with the drug have let treat, is  
>>> unclear.
>>> The tv-programma Nova' mentioned in 2006, of thousands of people  
>>> worldwide,
>>> and of wide 220 patients who had been helped by the Dutch  
>>> therapist Sara
>>> Glatt. In the retransmission put to an expert to that to the  
>>> regular care
>>> and treatment of drug addicts with iboga?ne to a large chance let  
>>> lie.
>>>
>>> Except as detox-drug uses some iboga-root as smart drug, because  
>>> he causes
>>> such a intense and long-term fuddle. That deep trance is also the  
>>> reason why
>>> descends African the plant uses during rites.
>>>
>>>
>>> Translation is done through an online web translator, so as you  
>>> just read,
>>> it is not very accurate...
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Wishes,
>>>
>>> Ben De Loenen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
>
> -- 
> +27 71 687 0068
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:39:19 -0600
> From: Jeremy Spence <jlspence at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine Digest, Vol 13, Issue 85
> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> Message-ID: <7ACEB0A5-C661-4D44-A70C-B0CD6F78D3C4 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> would'nt benzo's help??
> On Jan 19, 2009, at 5:14 PM, ibogaine-request at mindvox.com wrote:
>
>> Send Ibogaine mailing list submissions to
>> 	ibogaine at mindvox.com
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> 	http://www.mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> 	ibogaine-request at mindvox.com
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> 	ibogaine-owner at mindvox.com
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Ibogaine digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>  1. Re: QT info (Kevin Walker)
>>  2. Re: Voacanga Africana plant (sitkaa)
>>  3. Re: QT info (Luke Christoffersen)
>>  4. Re: conference? (robert charleston)
>>  5. Re: QT info (Charles Rossouw)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 23:14:05 +0200
>> From: "Kevin Walker" <kevin at ibogainesa.co.za>
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] QT info
>> To: "'The Ibogaine List'" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Message-ID: <000601c97a7a$df594c60$9e0be520$@co.za>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>>
>>
>> QT interval represents the electrical re-polarization of the heart.
>> It is
>> measured from an electrocardiogram (ECG). A long QT interval
>> predisposes the
>> heart to arrhythmias, which can sometimes be life threatening. Most
>> cases
>> are acquired due to abnormalities in the blood electrolytes (low
>> potassium
>> or magnesium) or certain drugs (psychotropic agents, certain
>> antibiotics and
>> antifungal). It can also be due to decrease blood supply to certain
>> regions
>> of the heart (coronary artery disease) or myocardial disease. The
>> congenital
>> variety is known as long QT syndrome and there over 7 - 10 subtypes.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.ipej.org/0204/vincent.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Kevin.
>>
>>
>>
>> Image5
>>
>>
>>
>> NHP / Dr Kevin Walker (Reg No: 6206429)
>>
>>
>> Disclaimer and Confidentiality Note:
>> This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to
>> which it
>> is addressed and may contain information that is privileged,
>> confidential
>> and exempt from exposure under applicable law.   If the reader
>> of this message is not the sole authorised recipient you are hereby
>> notified
>> that any dissemination, distribution or copying of the communication
>> is
>> strictly prohibited. If you have received this in error please  
>> destroy
>> immediately. Whilst suitable precautions against virus transmittal
>> are taken
>> by IBOGAINE AFRICAN RENAISSANCE (Pty)  Ltd (and associated
>> companies) we
>> cannot accept any responsibility for viruses or their consequences.
>>
>>
>> 12 Floria St
>> Edleen
>> Kempton Park
>> 1619
>> <Tel:+27> Tel:+27 11 391 7005
>> Cell:+27 82 557 8480
>> <http://www.ibogainesa.co.za> www.ibogaineafricanrenaissance.com
>> e-mail:  <mailto:kevin at ibogainesa.co.za>
>> kevin at ibogaineafricanrenaissance.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com
>> ] On
>> Behalf Of michael langshaw
>> Sent: 19 January 2009 10:55 PM
>> To: The Ibogaine List
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] QT info
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>> Could someone tell me what QT is.  Thanks...Mike
>>
>> --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Charles Rossouw <charles.rossouw at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: Charles Rossouw <charles.rossouw at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] QT info
>> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 11:39 AM
>>
>> Hi Matt
>>
>>
>>
>> Amiodarone can be used, although there is small possibility that it
>> can also
>> cause prolonged QT. The problem with the seizures are that people can
>> misinterpret it as severe withdrawals, and may think to use
>> morphine, which
>> can then become fatal.  It is important to give the personnel at the
>> hospital as much a possible information about ibogaine, and to tell
>> everybody that has contact with the patient: "NO OPIATES!"
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree that patients should be monitored by ECG throughout  
>> treatment,
>> although I have never done that.  Mia culpa.  I just think the  
>> monitor
>> should be on an extension in a different room, because of the  
>> constant
>> beeping, which be distractive.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Matt Shriver <ibogamail at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.qtsyndrome.ch/faq.html
>>
>> After reading this I wondered if what they are calling a "seizure- 
>> like
>> attack" in the article about the incident in the Netherlands, was
>> actually a
>> loss of consciousness.  If it is as common as they say it is, I
>> imagine that
>> unfortunately, we may be seeing more deaths.  To answer my own
>> question from
>> my previous post it looks like her corrected QT of 616ms is actually
>> quite
>> high.
>>
>> This article also says "It is generally estimated that approximately
>> 10% to
>> 12% of all patients with long QT syndrome show a normal QT-interval
>> on their
>> ECG."  which is a little troubling in terms of exclusion criteria.
>> They
>> also mention physical exertion and stress as being points at which
>> high QT
>> interval people suddenly die.  I know it is common for the Bwiti to
>> engage
>> in physical exertion (i.e. dancing) while on low doses of iboga, I
>> wonder if
>> there have been incidences in which these people suddenly died  
>> without
>> warning.
>>
>> They also mention beta blockers as a likely treatment. Would anyone
>> who
>> knows about these things care to conjecture what might happen if
>> someone
>> took a beta blocker with ibogaine?
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>>
>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
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>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> +27 71 687 0068
>>
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>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:18:44 -0500
>> From: sitkaa <athabaskana at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Voacanga Africana plant
>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<b4318a620901191318o6b44c91an56706a9aa971687b at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Not that I am asking you to revaeal if you broke the law, mind you.
>> Don't
>> want to get anyone in trouble with our burgeoning police state. Just
>> hypothetically.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 4:14 PM, sitkaa <athabaskana at gmail.com>  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So were I to pursue making ibogaine, a viable method would be using
>>> the
>>> bark of voacanga?
>>>
>>> This doesn't look that difficult. Has anyone else here done this?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Charles Rossouw <
>>> charles.rossouw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> For sure.
>>>>
>>>> Voacanga is used to make the Ibogaine HCL that we are using now.
>>>> So it
>>>> has to be viable and preferred to using T Iboga roots. I believe
>>>> its also
>>>> the suggested route to get a pharmaceutical grade ibogaine.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Charles
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 8:13 PM, sitkaa <athabaskana at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Howdy again Simon,
>>>>>
>>>>> What about Chris Jenks method? Is this economically tenable/ 
>>>>> viable?
>>>>>
>>>>> It looks like there would be alot of advantages to this method.
>>>>> Is the
>>>>> extraction/isolation of voacangine difficult?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> m
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 7:06 AM, simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It is used in similar type rituals but as a precursor to
>>>>>> ibogaine its
>>>>>> a hell of a mission and expensive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> *From:* Edward A. Weissbard <edward.escs at gmail.com>
>>>>>> *To:* Ibogaine List Posting <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, 19 January, 2009 1:30:56
>>>>>> *Subject:* [Ibogaine] Voacanga Africana plant
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone know if the Voacanga Africana is used in any way similar  
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Tabernanthe Iboga.  Looks like the Voacanga Africana contains
>>>>>> Voacangine,
>>>>>> which is an alkaloid that may be a precursor to ibogaine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Edward
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> +27 71 687 0068
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:29:17 +0000
>> From: Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] QT info
>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<4c90d90901191329t3084ba6bh30a8514867cb3631 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> I was just going to say something about the magnesium as that post
>> about the person who had problems had low magnesium among other
>> things.  Perhaps bad lifestyle and poor nutrition could make some
>> people more prone to these problems?
>>
>> When I did a treatment my qt length was apparently not much longer on
>> the reading after about 24 hours. Maybe just me though I was also
>> taking calcium and magnesium supplements the days before.
>>
>> Luke
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Kevin Walker
>> <kevin at ibogainesa.co.za> wrote:
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> QT interval represents the electrical re-polarization of the heart.
>>> It is
>>> measured from an electrocardiogram (ECG). A long QT interval
>>> predisposes the
>>> heart to arrhythmias, which can sometimes be life threatening. Most
>>> cases
>>> are acquired due to abnormalities in the blood electrolytes (low
>>> potassium
>>> or magnesium) or certain drugs (psychotropic agents, certain
>>> antibiotics and
>>> antifungal). It can also be due to decrease blood supply to certain
>>> regions
>>> of the heart (coronary artery disease) or myocardial disease. The
>>> congenital
>>> variety is known as long QT syndrome and there over 7 - 10 subtypes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.ipej.org/0204/vincent.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Kevin.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> NHP / Dr Kevin Walker (Reg No: 6206429)
>>>
>>>
>>> Disclaimer and Confidentiality Note:
>>> This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to
>>> which it
>>> is addressed and may contain information that is privileged,
>>> confidential
>>> and exempt from exposure under applicable law.   If the reader
>>> of this message is not the sole authorised recipient you are hereby
>>> notified
>>> that any dissemination, distribution or copying of the
>>> communication is
>>> strictly prohibited. If you have received this in error please
>>> destroy
>>> immediately. Whilst suitable precautions against virus transmittal
>>> are taken
>>> by IBOGAINE AFRICAN RENAISSANCE (Pty)  Ltd (and associated
>>> companies) we
>>> cannot accept any responsibility for viruses or their consequences.
>>>
>>> 12 Floria St
>>> Edleen
>>> Kempton Park
>>> 1619
>>> Tel:+27 11 391 7005
>>> Cell:+27 82 557 8480
>>> www.ibogaineafricanrenaissance.com
>>> e-mail: kevin at ibogaineafricanrenaissance.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com
>>> ] On
>>> Behalf Of michael langshaw
>>> Sent: 19 January 2009 10:55 PM
>>> To: The Ibogaine List
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] QT info
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Guys,
>>>
>>> Could someone tell me what QT is.  Thanks...Mike
>>>
>>> --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Charles Rossouw <charles.rossouw at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Charles Rossouw <charles.rossouw at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] QT info
>>> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>> Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 11:39 AM
>>>
>>> Hi Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Amiodarone can be used, although there is small possibility that it
>>> can
>>> also cause prolonged QT. The problem with the seizures are that
>>> people can
>>> misinterpret it as severe withdrawals, and may think to use  
>>> morphine,
>>> which can then become fatal.  It is important to give the personnel
>>> at the
>>> hospital as much a possible information about ibogaine, and to tell
>>> everybody that has contact with the patient: "NO OPIATES!"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that patients should be monitored by ECG throughout
>>> treatment, although I have never done that.  Mia culpa.  I just
>>> think the
>>> monitor should be on an extension in a different room, because of  
>>> the
>>> constant beeping, which be distractive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Matt Shriver <ibogamail at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.qtsyndrome.ch/faq.html
>>>
>>> After reading this I wondered if what they are calling a "seizure-
>>> like
>>> attack" in the article about the incident in the Netherlands, was
>>> actually a
>>> loss of consciousness.  If it is as common as they say it is, I
>>> imagine that
>>> unfortunately, we may be seeing more deaths.  To answer my own
>>> question from
>>> my previous post it looks like her corrected QT of 616ms is
>>> actually quite
>>> high.
>>>
>>> This article also says "It is generally estimated that
>>> approximately 10% to
>>> 12% of all patients with long QT syndrome show a normal QT-interval
>>> on their
>>> ECG."  which is a little troubling in terms of exclusion criteria.
>>> They
>>> also mention physical exertion and stress as being points at which
>>> high QT
>>> interval people suddenly die.  I know it is common for the Bwiti to
>>> engage
>>> in physical exertion (i.e. dancing) while on low doses of iboga, I
>>> wonder if
>>> there have been incidences in which these people suddenly died
>>> without
>>> warning.
>>>
>>> They also mention beta blockers as a likely treatment. Would anyone
>>> who
>>> knows about these things care to conjecture what might happen if
>>> someone
>>> took a beta blocker with ibogaine?
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> +27 71 687 0068
>>>
>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>
>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>>>
>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:25:39 -0500
>> From: robert charleston <robster1971 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] conference?
>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<da0d2f460901191425l23cc351dj42e21e55d4dedf9 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Charles,
>> thank great appreciation for  this direction.
>>
>> Rob C.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Charles Rossouw
>> <charles.rossouw at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Rob
>>>
>>> I think Dr Ken Alper will also attend.  He is actually one of the
>>> experts
>>> on the medical side.
>>>
>>> On your question about the near fatal dose - It is not dose
>>> related, but
>>> can be linked to the ECG prior to treatment.
>>>
>>> ANY abnormality in the ECG, and especially arrythmias and prolonged
>>> QT,
>>> disqualifies a person from treatment.
>>>
>>> It is also really really important to have person with a medical
>>> background
>>> in attendance, with plans to get an ambulance to you if a problem
>>> occurs.
>>> The problem that occurs with ibogaine is called Torsade de Pointes
>>> and can
>>> be treated relatively easy with Lidocaine (Lignocaine) or some
>>> substances
>>> that regulate the heart rythm, so you need someone who is able to
>>> recognise
>>> early onset of the problem.  Ken once said to me that it is like a
>>> symphony
>>> concert, where symptoms start slowly, and then builds up to a
>>> crescendo.
>>> Recognising them early is important.
>>>
>>> You can also try to contact Dr Udi Bastiaans - he's somewhere in
>>> Amsterdam,
>>> but I don't have his email address.  I know he is on Skype.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 3:14 PM, robert charleston <
>>> robster1971 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> i will do my best to attend this one , i think that i m close
>>>> enough to
>>>> appear and learn that much more sweet this is going well, i really
>>>> want to
>>>> attend
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 4:18 PM, michael langshaw <mlangshaw67 at yahoo.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There is a  worldwide ibogaine conference being held in Boston
>>>>> sponsored by the Northeastern University chapter. It's being held
>>>>> on the
>>>>> 14th, 15th,16th of February. Does anyone know if this open to the
>>>>> public. I
>>>>> found it by googeling Ibogaine 2009. I'd imagine that this could
>>>>> be very
>>>>> interesting and I'm starving for knowledge. Thanxs!
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> +27 71 687 0068
>>>
>>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 01:14:35 +0200
>> From: Charles Rossouw <charles.rossouw at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] QT info
>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<5966395b0901191514t23cb8752ha364f29cb9fdf588 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> In simple terms, QT is the time the heart takes to re-charge after
>> firing,
>> i.e. getting ready to give the next pump.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 10:55 PM, michael langshaw <mlangshaw67 at yahoo.com
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Guys,
>>> Could someone tell me what QT is.  Thanks...Mike
>>>
>>> --- On *Mon, 1/19/09, Charles Rossouw <charles.rossouw at gmail.com>*
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Charles Rossouw <charles.rossouw at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] QT info
>>> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>> Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 11:39 AM
>>>
>>> Hi Matt
>>>
>>> Amiodarone can be used, although there is small possibility that it
>>> can
>>> also cause prolonged QT. The problem with the seizures are that
>>> people can
>>> misinterpret it as severe withdrawals, and may think to use  
>>> morphine,
>>> which can then become fatal.  It is important to give the personnel
>>> at the
>>> hospital as much a possible information about ibogaine, and to tell
>>> everybody that has contact with the patient: "NO OPIATES!"
>>>
>>> I agree that patients should be monitored by ECG throughout
>>> treatment, although I have never done that.  Mia culpa.  I just
>>> think the
>>> monitor should be on an extension in a different room, because of  
>>> the
>>> constant beeping, which be distractive.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>> Charles
>>> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Matt Shriver <ibogamail at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.qtsyndrome.ch/faq.html
>>>>
>>>> After reading this I wondered if what they are calling a "seizure-
>>>> like
>>>> attack" in the article about the incident in the Netherlands, was
>>>> actually a
>>>> loss of consciousness.  If it is as common as they say it is, I
>>>> imagine that
>>>> unfortunately, we may be seeing more deaths.  To answer my own
>>>> question from
>>>> my previous post it looks like her corrected QT of 616ms is
>>>> actually quite
>>>> high.
>>>>
>>>> This article also says "It is generally estimated that
>>>> approximately 10%
>>>> to 12% of all patients with long QT syndrome show a normal QT-
>>>> interval on
>>>> their ECG."  which is a little troubling in terms of exclusion
>>>> criteria.
>>>> They also mention physical exertion and stress as being points at
>>>> which high
>>>> QT interval people suddenly die.  I know it is common for the
>>>> Bwiti to
>>>> engage in physical exertion (i.e. dancing) while on low doses of
>>>> iboga, I
>>>> wonder if there have been incidences in which these people
>>>> suddenly died
>>>> without warning.
>>>>
>>>> They also mention beta blockers as a likely treatment. Would
>>>> anyone who
>>>> knows about these things care to conjecture what might happen if
>>>> someone
>>>> took a beta blocker with ibogaine?
>>>>
>>>> Matt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> +27 71 687 0068
>>>
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>> ****************************************
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