[Ibogaine] do video games infuence generations???

Brad Hays bradleyheathhays at gmail.com
Fri Jun 6 03:08:50 EDT 2008


Nick's no kiddo J.  He's very well respected and is giving no more lip than
you.  You guys are equal intelligences...treat him that way ok?


On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Juliano <juliano8 at ntlworld.com> wrote:

>  Hey Nick,
>
> "
>
> Juliano,
>
>
>
> Hierarchies and authority positions are part of our world. That's reality.
> You can rant and rave and quote negative situations but at some point you
> are I think going to have to deal with this reality. It's everywhere around
> us and even if the whole world was reconstructed again, pretty soon you
> would see hierarchies emerge. Our animal ancestry is written through with
> dominant and submissive traits. The feelings that arise through interaction
> with hierarchical structures need to be admitted and felt so that an
> individual can find his or her natural place within the group. Then they
> will feel good. "
>
>
>
> *Nick, you do tend to patronize somewhat. The fact is is that the mindset
> that is in control of the world is OUT of control, and unless we stop
> imagining that we have to just lie down and take it then it will just get
> worse. You may be very confortable, and the issues I raise dont touch you
> (yet!), but for many, like many poor people, and Indigenous peoples, and
> animals in the world, this is really serious shit. And it needs action. Not
> excuses that we are 'animals bla bla', Which is an insult to animals, if
> your argument is that our destruction of the web of life is due to our
> ANIMAL heritage. because animals aren't the problem, WE are. And not ALL
> humans, bu the ones who abide by the authority that does this and permits
> this wanton self-destruction. It is not animals, it is a mechanistic
> civilization that hos lost contact with the body, the animal, and the land.
> *
>
> **
>
> "
>
> You can read as many books as you want, Juliano. But I think it would be so
> great if you could also start to get into actually being with people who've
> been diagnosed mentally ill, talking to them and coming to understand their
> wants and needs. Because all I see you doing here is quoting a lot of
> theories about how the world is wrong. If you truly want to "explore this to
> the core" then start to deal with the real people that have been diagnosed.
> They will finally teach you far more than any book.
>
>
>
> Nick"
>
>
>
> *Again Nick, if your not giving out presumptious 'diagnoses' you are
> patronizing. You do not know me. I do more than read books kiddo, I
> experience life..just like you do. And I am probabaly --at 53--a lot older
> than you. So as they say here: dont teach your granny how to suck eggs!*
>
> **
>
> *regarde*
>
> **
>
> *Juliano*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Nick Sandberg <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk>
> *To:* 'The Ibogaine List' <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 05, 2008 12:09 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Ibogaine] do video games infuence generations???
>
>
>
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Juliano
> *Sent:* 05 June 2008 08:40
> *To:* The Ibogaine List
> *Subject:* Re: [Ibogaine] do video games infuence generations???
>
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
>
>
> " It was really just my own experiences around this area that prompted me
> to suggest you could have authority issues. I'm not judging you that it's
> true, I just wanted to make you aware that it could be. That's my trip.
>
> I was big-time into alternative beliefs for many years. I was into the
> entheogenic scene and heavily into the whole conspiracy theory scene. I was
> writing conspiracy material and getting recognition for it. At some point it
> came to me that maybe the issue was actually more inside my head instead of
> being just in the world outside. I resisted this possibility for a while and
> then, at some point, I felt I had to look. Because I wanted to be able to
> take an honest and authentic position for myself in the world. I had a big
> trip with authority, coming from my childhood. I did a lot of work on it
> because I did want to be real.
>
> I know a lot of people from this scene and, to be honest, I see that a lot
> of them have the same issues. I don't know you really so much but I wanted
> to say it, because maybe it does somewhere resonate for you. Maybe not. Like
> I say I'm not in such a big position of judgment about it."
>
>
>
> Having 'authority issues'. So, say I say 'no' to an authority, right? They
> can accuse me of having 'authority issues'. See how it works?
>
> I dont know if you are familiar with psychological research into this
> subject of authority. But there have been some famous experiments done on
> unwitting people.
>
> One was where people were picked by men in whitecoats masquerading as
> scientists, and were told they were part of a test to help people learn
> better. They couldn't see who these others were but could hear them.
>
> The 'scientists' with clipboards. told the volunteers they must press
> buttons that send electric shocks to the people 'learning'. Now what this
> whows is how far people will go to obey authority, because you see them
> deliver electric shocks to a person who is screaming with pain. And even
> though the ones doing it are distressed, because they believe they are
> obeying authority and are told the responsibility lies with the authority
> they keep doing it. Even when the screams stop and the other (actor) could
> have died.
>
> Another one I have seen. These people are sat on a fairly empty train. A
> researcher dressed in uniform goes up to these people who are surrounded by
> empty seats and asks them to move to another seat. Whithout even asking why,
> because this dudes got a uniform on that suggests 'authority' they comply.
>
> Then there is a researcher that does same but this time without a uniform
> on, and it is harder to get them to move. But you get me?
>
> So Nick. It is very dangerous to blindly follow authority is the message.
> Always question if you feel somethings is not right. EVEn if they accuse you
> you may have 'authority issues'. Just say 'damn right!' ;)
>
>
>
> Juliano,
>
>
>
> Hierarchies and authority positions are part of our world. That's reality.
> You can rant and rave and quote negative situations but at some point you
> are I think going to have to deal with this reality. It's everywhere around
> us and even if the whole world was reconstructed again, pretty soon you
> would see hierarchies emerge. Our animal ancestry is written through with
> dominant and submissive traits. The feelings that arise through interaction
> with hierarchical structures need to be admitted and felt so that an
> individual can find his or her natural place within the group. Then they
> will feel good.
>
>
>
>
>
> "When you write about how can you absolutely say mental illness is a
> disease or a disfunction, of course it is true that you cannot. You can take
> a position that everything is just how it is and it's all just fine. That's
> totally valid. But for me at some point I have to act to create positive
> change, just for me to feel good. There are a lot of wounded people out
> there and the reality for me is that the techniques of psychiatry have
> validity when it comes to helping them."
>
>
>
> First understand there is no actual evidence for physical disease. And then
> look closey why that has been emphasized by that authority, and put 2 and 2
> togther. researching Psychiatry's past will also be very beneficial. A good
> book is Thomas Szasz's The Manufacture of Madness: A Comparative Study of
> the Inquisition and the Mental health Movement. because it shows you
> transition from the all-pervasive authority of the Church to the
> all-pervasive power of psychiatry.
>
> I very well know there are a lot of wounded people out there, and I can
> tell you are sincere. But MY way is to explore this to the core. See what
> games are being played so as to help resolve the corruption that carries
> this shit on from generation to generation. Which now is destroying all
> other species and the Web of Life itself. That is how urgent this inquiry
> is.
>
>
>
> You can read as many books as you want, Juliano. But I think it would be so
> great if you could also start to get into actually being with people who've
> been diagnosed mentally ill, talking to them and coming to understand their
> wants and needs. Because all I see you doing here is quoting a lot of
> theories about how the world is wrong. If you truly want to "explore this to
> the core" then start to deal with the real people that have been diagnosed.
> They will finally teach you far more than any book.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> There's a guy called Peter Cohen over in Holland who objects a lot to the
> whole notion of addiction, and of treatment. He takes the position, as I
> understand it, that giving people ibogaine is misunderstanding the whole
> issue of addiction which he considers in many ways primarily semantic; that
> if we didn't use these labels and just allowed people to do what they wanted
> with their lives and their consciousness then the issue would no longer
> exist. He's right. He also considers himself a humanist and I think he is.
> But to me it is also the case that if I see someone suffering or someone
> causing hurt to others through unawareness, then I need to act and I don't
> mind using a load of labels and old-school psychiatry to help. That's my
> humanistic position. I think it's human to judge and that it's not so
> terrible to judge and be judged. I am OK to sacrifice nice-sounding
> philosophies and theories if it helps people in the moment and in the real
> world."
>
>
>
> When I hear word 'humanism' I also see animal experimentation. because that
> term to me says 'only humans are important'. And that is very not so. We are
> part of a web of life, we don't OWN it!
>
> I cannot dig this Peter Cohen. His views go against Indigenous wisdom which
> goes far back into our primordial past where all forms of sacred vegetation
> is there to benefit our health, both physically and spiritually.
>
>
>
> regarde
>
>
>
> Juliano
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* nick227 at tiscali.co.uk
>
> *To:* ibogaine at mindvox.com
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 04, 2008 8:49 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Ibogaine] do video games infuence generations???
>
>
>
> Hi Juliano,
>
> It was really just my own experiences around this area that prompted me to
> suggest you could have authority issues. I'm not judging you that it's true,
> I just wanted to make you aware that it could be. That's my trip.
>
> I was big-time into alternative beliefs for many years. I was into the
> entheogenic scene and heavily into the whole conspiracy theory scene. I was
> writing conspiracy material and getting recognition for it. At some point it
> came to me that maybe the issue was actually more inside my head instead of
> being just in the world outside. I resisted this possibility for a while and
> then, at some point, I felt I had to look. Because I wanted to be able to
> take an honest and authentic position for myself in the world. I had a big
> trip with authority, coming from my childhood. I did a lot of work on it
> because I did want to be real.
>
> I know a lot of people from this scene and, to be honest, I see that a lot
> of them have the same issues. I don't know you really so much but I wanted
> to say it, because maybe it does somewhere resonate for you. Maybe not. Like
> I say I'm not in such a big position of judgment about it.
>
> When you write about how can you absolutely say mental illness is a disease
> or a disfunction, of course it is true that you cannot. You can take a
> position that everything is just how it is and it's all just fine. That's
> totally valid. But for me at some point I have to act to create positive
> change, just for me to feel good. There are a lot of wounded people out
> there and the reality for me is that the techniques of psychiatry have
> validity when it comes to helping them.
>
> There's a guy called Peter Cohen over in Holland who objects a lot to the
> whole notion of addiction, and of treatment. He takes the position, as I
> understand it, that giving people ibogaine is misunderstanding the whole
> issue of addiction which he considers in many ways primarily semantic; that
> if we didn't use these labels and just allowed people to do what they wanted
> with their lives and their consciousness then the issue would no longer
> exist. He's right. He also considers himself a humanist and I think he is.
> But to me it is also the case that if I see someone suffering or someone
> causing hurt to others through unawareness, then I need to act and I don't
> mind using a load of labels and old-school psychiatry to help. That's my
> humanistic position. I think it's human to judge and that it's not so
> terrible to judge and be judged. I am OK to sacrifice nice-sounding
> philosophies and theories if it helps people in the moment and in the real
> world.
>
> Nick
>
> ----Original Message----
> From: juliano8 at ntlworld.com
> Date: 04/06/2008 19:29
> To: "The Ibogaine List"<ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Subj: Re: [Ibogaine] do video games infuence generations???
>
>
> -->
>
> hey Nick,
>
>
>
> Errrm take the beam outta your OWN eye before you judge me.
>
>
>
> I am fine. I feel fine. I am not coming to you for a diagnosis. Is that
> clear?
>
>
>
> If you cannot understand my logic and passion and compassion well that
> reveals more about yourself really
>
>
>
> regarde
>
>
>
> Juliano
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Nick Sandberg <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk>
>
> *To:* 'The Ibogaine List' <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 04, 2008 4:25 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Ibogaine] do video games infuence generations???
>
>
>
> I don't think you're crazy, Juliano. But I do think you're placing a lot of
> value in a theory which seems kind of weak really. It does kind of make me
> wonder as to why you'd do that. Was it that some psychiatrist told you that
> you were mentally ill once or something? Or some friend of yours?
>
> I mean, there are people around who do clearly have pretty serious mental
> issues and I don't think it's dehumanizing or controlling that they get
> labeled by a treatment professional. I think it's more to help them and to
> sometimes protect people around them. For sure, this can be abused, and it
> could be a lot better, and cultures do tend to create their own notions of
> what is acceptable behaviour or not, but at the end of the day I think it's
> pretty clear to anyone who's been around mentally ill people that a lot do
> need extra care and help.
>
> I'm left with the feeling that there's something here in this discussion
> much more personal to you which you're not revealing.
>
> Nick
>
>
>
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