[Ibogaine] (is mental illness a disease

Juliano juliano8 at ntlworld.com
Thu Jun 5 12:54:07 EDT 2008


Hey chi, 

"juliano, how do you know you exist? you could be a dream. is there any proof that you are real"

I feel real. if I walk into a car that is real. In a dream it isn't. i wake up with a start and know it wasn't real.

regarde

Juliano



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: chi malan 
  To: The Ibogaine List 
  Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 1:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (is mental illness a disease


  juliano, how do you know you exist? you could be a dream. is there any proof that you are real



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: juliano8 at ntlworld.com
    To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
    Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:47:32 +0100
    Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (is mental illness a disease


    Hi Simon,

    How to prove to yourself Schizophrenia doesn't exist is simple. Find medical evidence/tests that is DOES exist.

    'Schizophrenia'  is more a visionary process of healing

    Did you see that video I sent with Jeremy narby saying how we do not understand consciousness?

    regarde

    Juliano
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: simon loxton 
      To: The Ibogaine List 
      Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:04 PM
      Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (is mental illness a disease


      You keep saying that schizophrenia is not a disease because there is no evidence or proof of this; am I right? 
      Is there any evidence to the contrary? 
      What do you want to call it then and does it matter? 
      Is there any proof that schizophrenia does not exist? 



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Juliano <juliano8 at ntlworld.com>
      To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, 4 June, 2008 7:43:59 PM
      Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (is mental illness a disease


      Hey Scot,

      ........ ahaha. I began reading your reply thinking, hmmmm some support. But in your second paragraph you seem to get sucked into the myth yet again with their views.

      I repeat. Show me the proof that 'schizophrenia' is a disease. And that 'hallucinations' are 'symptoms'. 

      You cannot un-corrupt an institution that is corrupt as much as you can uncorrpt a rotten apple.

      regarde

      Juliano
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Scott Doran 
        To: The Ibogaine List 
        Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 3:40 PM
        Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (is mental illness a disease


        I believe that Juliano is talking about the abuse of the science of Psychiatry. Any science can pimp itself out to serve the needs of those who adhere to the dominant paradigm. In Russia a person could receive "treatment" just for resisting the Communist Party. Similarly there are many in this country who receive treatment for problems other than an actual mental disease. I have seen criminal problems deemed mental disorders because the person lacked resources to seize and they did not seem to care whether they languished in jail or on the street (some prefer jail here at least they eat). Police who have broken the law are often cover by mental disorders so that they won't lose the privilege to carry their gun once they "get better". A friend of mine who uncovered the malfeasance of local politicians was heavily threatened of being "treated" for exposing lies and violations of law. We all know someone who got depressed after getting in trouble for drug law violations and was treated as though the mental condition was independent of the legal problem. Many social problems are regarded as mental disorders as it is easier to "treat" a person than actually treat society.
        On the other hand there are those who suffer from true mental disorders and are in serious need of help. It has been noted that schizophrenia does seem to run in families, thus hinting at some degree of a genetic link to certain kinds of mental disorders. Most people who abuse cocaine long enough appear to sink into a chemically induced mania. I met a guy who took ecstasy daily for months complain, "My brain is disconnected from my body". He was labeled as a schizo-affective", in that he acted as though schizophrenic, but was lacking in the classic symptoms of hallucinations associated with schizophrenia. So at its best, psychiatry is a sincere attempt to help alleviate the emotional distress of people suffering from serious mental problems. Is it perfect? No. Can it get better? Yes! A whole lot if people who want to help keep a loving and open mind. Psychiatry, at its worst is a tool of social control and is a despicable enterprise whose second motive is profit.
        I think some of you all are talking about two different things and there is really no cause for argument. Please accept my input as an attempt to add clarity to this debate. 



        On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Juliano <juliano8 at ntlworld.com> wrote:

          hey Peter,

          It is so easy. one says 'I think your crazy'

          End of thinking and feeling.

          This is EXACTLY what I am challenging. Good -- albeit unknowing--demonstration ;)

          regarde

          Juliano
            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: Peter Ferreira 
            To: The Ibogaine List 
            Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 10:12 AM
            Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (is mental illness a disease


            Juliano, 


            I think you're crazy


            Regards


            Peter


            On 04 Jun 2008, at 10:43 AM, Juliano wrote:


              Hey chi,

              LOL, oh puleeeze! you'll have to do better than that!

              regarde

              Juliano
                ----- Original Message ----- 
                From: chi malan 
                To: The Ibogaine List 
                Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 5:29 AM
                Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (is mental illness a disease






--------------------------------------------------------------

                  "The bottom line Mason is this: Where is your proof that mental illness is a disease?

                  regarde

                  Juliano"

                  if you search dictionary.com for the word disease, yes mental illness is considered a disease











                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                    From: Mason Shipley 
                    To: The Ibogaine List 
                    Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 10:09 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (no subject)



                    Juliano, I haven't really really read the religious debate or what you're saying about Satanism, but out of all the people I've ever known in positions of power who abused it, they were doing so in the name of capitalism, no religion or devil involved. If you want to label people who do that as bad, that's your call, but it's all about money, not inverted pentacles or whatever.

                    What you have to say about mental illness I've taken the time to read and I gotta tell you, having an Aunt who is schizophrenic and growing up around her, her problem was really not being labelled by the capitalist fascist state, her problem was that her brain was not functioning "normally" and without her medication which caused all kids of other side effects, she was a raving paranoid person who could not in any way at all function enough to even remember to feed herself or put on her clothes when she walked outside. 

                    I very much get the feeling that most of your theories are pie in the sky mental masturbation and don't connect with reality too much. Have you any personal experience whatsoever with either addiction or mental illness? I'm going to guess that psychiatrists may not have helped you much and you didn't appreciate them if you've ever encountered them, but you seem not to be mentally ill, just another person who likes to trip and has assembled an ad hoc hodgepodge of new age theories. 

                    If that helps you get through the day, more power to you.


                    On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Juliano <juliano8 at ntlworld.com> wrote:

                      Hey Sara,

                      I know it is not simple, I really do. But ALSo you have to understand that
                      powers that be can make things seem very complex! And they will do this by
                      'blinding us' with science, and using lingo that cannot be understood by
                      ordinary people. Are you familiar with 'gobblydegook', and 'legalize'??
                      These are all forms of communication designed to keep us--the common
                      people--the hell out, and to manipulate us.

                      Regarding shamans etc. of course there will be people who have the skill of
                      healing. But also understand that so do you. Dont give all your power to
                      anotyher. Cultivate your own power. And authentic healer will tell you it is
                      you that heals yourself. They act as a conduit.

                      regarding 'mentally ill' people 'who cant take care of themselves'. Again,
                      we have to ask WHY? For if mental illness is a myth, then we ned a different
                      kind of approach. FIRST you have to understand it is a myth. if you try and
                      wonder what to do beliving it is biolgical disease, I see that as looking
                      blind at the problem.

                      regarde

                      Juliano



                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Sara Glatt" <sara119 at xs4all.nl>
                      To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 3:07 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] (no subject)


                      > Hi Juliano,
                      >
                      > there is no need to go anywhere to do something about yourself, the truth
                      > is that some people who are named Shaman or Medicine man or woman do have
                      > healing energies, just like some plants and animals do.
                      >
                      > for example, in Israel lives a lady who can't get children, she was
                      > a victim of war crimes in the 2ed world war, now
                      > many years after she gives blessing to women who can not get pregnant,
                      > (medically could not get any help) and most of her blessing are working.
                      >
                      > there is another lady who experienced peyote in the Indian reservation she
                      > can heal people tuning into that vibe she experienced while on Peyote
                      > and she is using it for channeling healing energies.
                      >
                      > Cabalistic healing, healing mantra's are also things we can learn,
                      > but we are not all capable to do so,then we look for help.
                      >
                      > when people are mentally ill they don't think about themselves.
                      > I have treated a man who thought he was The Messiah, and a lady who heard
                      > voices, who were controlling her life,
                      > also a person who didn't know where he was and what he should be eating
                      > or drinking, just tripping from too much interferon medication.
                      > those people couldn't take care of the most simple things kids know how
                      > to do. they all got medication after their family couldn't take care of
                      > them.
                      >
                      > this is just to give you the idea that it is not that simple as you think,
                      > people are complex being, the good, the bad and the ugly.
                      >
                      > Hi Simon,
                      >>
                      >> You said: " I want to say some thing about the fact that you said "these
                      >> secrets need to be told" which I will get to;"
                      >>
                      >> Actually I said that the secret is already out. That in principle people
                      >> could cultivate their own psychedelics if they wished to, and get
                      >> informtaion as to how to have a Tryp.
                      >> Ie., there is no need to be  relying on being part of some 'mystery
                      >> school', or going to a shaman, or medicine man.
                      >>
                      >> Regarding the rest of your post. Yes the so-called 'mental health
                      >> movement' it is all a shambles. This is because the whole ediface is
                      >> built
                      >> on a myth of mental illness. The very institutions really function as
                      >> social control. And usually it has always been the poor that have been
                      >> the
                      >> main victims. So for example we have a VERY brutal oppressive system that
                      >> is not just harsh physically for many, but also psychologically. But that
                      >> ,especially, the latter%2
                      >
                      >
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