[Ibogaine] Booster Dose Protocol !

Charles Rossouw charles.rossouw at gmail.com
Tue Jul 22 16:42:32 EDT 2008


Also, according to presenters at the DC forum in February small daily doses
seem to be a self-limiting practise in that someone cannot use ibogaine
beyond 10 -14 days before the user feels uncomfortable to continue.  It will
be very difficult to continue into secondary addiction if this is the case
(Which I believe it is).

I agree that spreading the dose is equally effective wrt addiction
treatment, without the "flood" dose.  I think I have elaborated on this a
while ago.

Regards

Charles
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 7:28 PM, Matthew Zielinski <
masterhermesbathory at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Kevin
>
> This want meant for Simon but I want to put in my opinion.
>
> To be sucesfull on the road to recovery it is esential to form a new habit
> of thinking.  It takes time for the new habbits to become firmly set in the
> mind.  Boosters may help prolong that sobriety time which in turn causes new
> neruotransimters to build etc etc.  I think anybody in their right frame of
> mind cant abuse Iboga/ibogaine since it has too much of a supernatural
> kick.  The issues are being worked out while the booster doses take effect.
> Eventually the boosters will be elimienated since new habbit of
> thinking/reacting will take place.
>
> Take care
> Matt
>
>
>   On 7/22/08, Kevin Walker <kevin at ibogaineafricanrenaissance.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Simon,
>>
>> While booster doses have worked for us in the past as well, I would think
>> that one must also be careful when considering including this type of regime
>> into the protocol as we could be looking for long term problems with regard
>> to a person becoming dependant on it and really not working that hard on
>> other areas of his recovery if in the back of his / her mind there is a back
>> stop - that being the booster.
>>
>> Remember that at the moment Ibogaine / Iboga is really seen as this awful
>> tasting substance that someone cant really become accustom too and only
>> ingests once or twice maybe to eradicate the withdrawal and cravings
>> associated to the drug / drugs of choice.Also if one was to follow this
>> protocol for how long would you need to continue it for and at what cost to
>> the patient?
>>
>> Would it not be more worthwhile, rather to increase the dose per / Kg body
>> weight, and split the dosage up over an extended period  i.e. lets just say
>> we have a patient that would be ingesting 8 capsules, one test dose balance
>> being flood dose, but this dosage gets split up into say fourteen capsules
>> and administered to the patient over a period of say 14 hours as apposed to
>> the norm of the flood dose / or dosage split up into fewer hours.
>>
>> Although the "tripping effect" seems to be slightly less the long term
>> effect seems to be better, in that those cravings and potential withdraws
>> have been displaced for an extended period of time - allowing better long
>> term healing! Hence no booster dose needed.
>>
>> Regards
>> Kevin.
>>  ___________________________________________________________________
>> NHP / Dr Kevin Walker (Reg No: 6206429)
>>
>>
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>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk>
>> *To:* The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 22, 2008 5:36 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>
>>
>>  I have included boosters into my program; so to speak.
>> Its an attempt to set some incentive to gather long term information and
>> also to avoid relapse when the signs start appearing.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Matthew Zielinski <masterhermesbathory at gmail.com>
>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008 1:12:54 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>
>> Hey Si
>>
>> Yes exactly some kind of a long term maintainace with small regual
>> boosters would be very beneficial.  Why not incorporate it into the
>> protocol?  since the abstianance rate is so low with the one dose why not
>> begein to change it eh?  I understand its not evreyones cup of tea but then
>> how badly do you want change.  I m sick and tired of the way iboga tastes
>> and the whole ritual to take just one t'spoon is a long and disgusting one
>> but i know what it does so i do it even though deep down i hate taking it
>> ;-))
>>
>> Take care
>> Matt
>>
>>
>> On 7/21/08, simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hey Matt;
>>>
>>> Thats a very important point you have made.
>>>
>>> Personally I struggle getting long term feedback from patients. There is
>>> a lot of information before; during and just after the experience but not
>>> nearly as much six months to a year later. I try to stress the importance of
>>> just keeping in contact so that when whatever the usual triggers start
>>> presenting themselves they can be dealt with; easily if caught in time.
>>>
>>> The other problem I have experienced with people who dont stay in touch
>>> and continue with some form of after care; is that they only respond when
>>> things are too late or there has already been a lapse. In these situations
>>> if they continue to go it alone its common to think the ibogaine has not
>>> worked (But thats a whole topic on its own)
>>>
>>> So I would stress the importance of keeping in touch. Obviously it would
>>> be easier to have a six month program or some thing like that but thats not
>>> everyones cup of tea or even do'able in most cases.
>>>
>>> Keep well Matt.
>>>
>>> Si'
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Matthew Zielinski <masterhermesbathory at gmail.com>
>>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 12:17:23 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>
>>>  I think its only natural that people who had a positive, enlightening
>>> first ibogaine experience praise it as a life saving gift.   Sudenly they
>>> are overwhelmed with happines and joy without resorting to using
>>> anything to get there so that is a big deal.
>>>
>>> That is just a fact.  And it is an amazing fact!
>>>
>>> If and when they relapse they do it on their own accord. They have a
>>> choice to use or not to use.  That doesnt diminish the fact that ibogaine
>>> helped them tremendously in those first weeks.
>>>
>>> I think the whole ibogaine program should be revised a bit.  I think more
>>> emphasis should be placed on boosters and not solely on the first flood
>>> dose.  Only looking at my self here but without the booster doses I think I
>>> might have slipped again.  Now with  regualar boosters(even though I only
>>> had 2) I have better control over my behaviour and the way I react to
>>> trigers/cravings/situations.
>>>
>>> Ibogaine is an amazing tool to detox with since it elimenates most of the
>>> wd's  but as far as abstianance rate its not that affective.  Booster doses
>>> should be implemented as a part of the ibogaine program.  Regular boosters
>>> should be advocated as the means to help acheaive that sobriety.  Since I'm
>>> only speaking from personal experience and only a short time of sobriety its
>>> hard to establish if thats true but speaking with few people from the list
>>> it does seem to be the case.
>>>
>>> Happy Sunday!
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/20/08, DC in AZ <dcollier9 at cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  depends on what label you apply to yourself by your actions, a "party
>>>> person" having a good time after work is done, and keeping a responsible
>>>> life situation
>>>> where you pay your bills, and you care about others is one case...
>>>>
>>>> or one can label themself an "addict" where your fun is now causing you
>>>> to not be responsible, and you dont care about anyone, even yourself,
>>>> and so on.
>>>>
>>>> the drug being used properly or abused - is only a small part of the
>>>> personality defects, or virtues being addressed (or ignored).
>>>>
>>>> but just so fun-loving people know that they may use drugs without being
>>>> "an addiction" problem person with deep issues. that is not addressed by NA,
>>>> or so I have heard.
>>>>
>>>> imo.
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Donzo
>>>> "Love converts hearts, and gives peace."
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>> *From:* Matt Shriver <ibogamail at gmail.com>
>>>> *To:* The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:26 PM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had similar reactions to Douglas.  I had thought about responding to
>>>> this before but never got around to it.  I think the author over-stresses
>>>> the "miracle cure" angle to ibogaine which I don't think is entirely
>>>> helpful.  I will be the first to admit that there is more than just a grain
>>>> of truth to that perspective but it is not the whole story.  From what I
>>>> have seen on this list and in myself, those who get the amazing, ecstatic,
>>>> miraculously delivered from the throes of addiction experience, those are
>>>> the ones most likely to write something like this, but if they do not follow
>>>> it up with any additional effort, then more often then not they wind up
>>>> using again.  And that pattern is I think not helpful for ibogaine.  The
>>>> grain of truth is in the fact that people actually do have these
>>>> experiences, I have myself.  But the whole truth is that if nothing else
>>>> changes, then in the long run, nothing at all changes and they wind up right
>>>> back where they started.
>>>>
>>>> NA is one way that many people find freedom from drug addiction but it
>>>> is not the only way. I think that people who are overly judgmental of it are
>>>> really dealing with their own internal issues that they are projecting onto
>>>> NA.  I will be the last to claim that NA is without it's problems.  But it's
>>>> more or less like say for instance the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day
>>>> Saints, the Mormons.  How many people go around with a resentment against
>>>> the Mormons, probably not a lot.  But just as with NA the tendency is to
>>>> view the whole organization based on the interactions you have with any of
>>>> it's members.  And these people will ring your doorbell and interrupt
>>>> whatever it is you are doing to try and sell you literature about a religion
>>>> you are probably not even interested in.  Some of them are pushy.  Some of
>>>> them are totally cool.  In my experience they are all very polite (other
>>>> than sometimes being overly persistent or just generally bothersome like
>>>> when different ones come by 3 days apart, c'mon I already told the last guys
>>>> I wasn't interested).  But my point is that if you go away from these
>>>> interactions with a resentment about the the Mormons in general than that is
>>>> really about you, not the Mormons.  And it seems like there are a lot of
>>>> addicts running around with 12-step resentment.  If it's not for you then
>>>> cool, don't go.  But if you go around dissing on it you may well be denying
>>>> someone else access to the very method that would work best for them to gain
>>>> freedom from drug addiction.  Hundreds of thousands have found help in NA
>>>> and if you include AA then you can change that number to millions.
>>>>
>>>> But just to get back to Douglas' point, addiction doesn't happen in a
>>>> vacuum.  There are associated behaviors, thought patterns, habits, and
>>>> tendencies that all support continuing in that lifestyle.  These things must
>>>> be dealt with and these things are usually already present prior to drug
>>>> addiction so simply returning to the pre-drug taking life is not exactly
>>>> realistic.  If all you remove is the physical and psychological addiction to
>>>> a specific substance you have essentially only treated the manifestations of
>>>> the issue, not the actual issue itself.  However you want to talk about
>>>> addiction and in whatever terms, most people would agree that it is more
>>>> than simply the repeated use of a substance.  That is the most obvious
>>>> outward manifestation but many personality traits and behaviors seemingly
>>>> unrelated to the drug use are also shared among addicts to say nothing of
>>>> people who manifest addictive behaviors around activities like gambling that
>>>> have nothing at all to do with consuming mind altering substances.  Whatever
>>>> it is that leads people into a situation where they become dependent on the
>>>> repeated use of a drug, simply removing the drug from the over-all picture
>>>> does not actually impact on that thing.
>>>>
>>>> Matt
>>>>
>>>> Douglas Fraser wrote:
>>>>
>>>> hrm....  I had a khat plant while I was living in Vancouver.  Never really
>>>> used it b/c it was of the weak variety, but it's a nice plant....   and of
>>>> course, I was not refining the chemical to excess a la coca and cocaine....
>>>>
>>>>    but speed freaks are .. freaks and that sort of applies to our
>>>> overcaffeinated Western culture.   And of course, it's always easier to
>>>> blame the chemicals than one's life and how one's living it and not
>>>>
>>>> acknowledging one's problems
>>>>
>>>> To be honest, what bugs me about this story is that the author does not
>>>> ever seem to acknowledge the chemicals were just tools for him to escape
>>>> his issues - it's like he never had any issues and then one day, poof!
>>>>
>>>> he's an addict.   maybe it's just my projections... and the way he writes.
>>>>     Then he imparts such power to ibogaine.. or seems to.  This is a subtle
>>>> point, but it's a crucial one.  Ibogaine can be
>>>>  considered
>>>>  to have
>>>> something of a "cult" surrounding it, much like ayahuasca does, and if we
>>>> (society) can deal with those projections in an honest manner, then we
>>>> won't be faced with the trouble that acid and MDMA had to deal with (the
>>>>
>>>> hysteria, the bans, etc).     then again, I'm an idealist....
>>>>
>>>> doug
>>>>
>>>> Kevin Walker wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To The List.
>>>>
>>>> A patient forward this attachment and asked me please to publish it on
>>>> Mindvox for him!
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Kevin
>>>> THE EVOLUTION OF ADDICTION TREATMENT- By Bareman                   12
>>>>
>>>> July 2008
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 1
>>>>
>>>> "Try some of this." smiled Dean, handing my wife and I a small piece of
>>>> paper with some white powder in the centre.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "It's called cut or cat and is a chemical version of the plant ,cut,
>>>>
>>>> used to enhance energy and concentration,much like a herbal version of
>>>> cocaine."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 15 minutes later we were
>>>>  driving to our magnificent , fully paid for
>>>> house, with our music studio, one of the finest and most magical in the
>>>>
>>>> country.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We were feeling motivated, on top of the world,energetic beyond belief
>>>>
>>>> and excited about the prospects of life.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That powder sure had a kick to it, a kick that we would later
>>>>  be
>>>> directed toward my manhood.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Half an hour after arriving home and working passionately on a new song,
>>>>
>>>> we felt the need for a little more of the magic powder.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Hey Dean, got any more cat?"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Sure, I make the stuff,but it's rather expensive to produce so I sell
>>>> it to my friends at 150 a gram."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "I"m coming back,give me 2."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I walked upstairs to our safe where we had about 100 00 rand in cash,
>>>> and took a mere 300 for Dean.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> See, I figured for 300 rand we were so prolific and energetic that we
>>>>
>>>> could do 2 days work in one, so why not?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We had tried Ritalin before and cat was like it's big brother in so far
>>>> as focus and energy was concerned.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dean told me it was based on a naturally occurring herb, so what was the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> harm?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 3
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We finished
>>>>  working in the early hours of the morning, sustaining our
>>>> energies by topping up with another line every half hour or so,and let's
>>>> just say making love was explosive to say the least. Bonus.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now as for our sleep life, the birds were chirping,the sun was rising
>>>> and we had no intentions of entertaining the notion of alpha/beta states
>>>> as we had to get our daughter ready for school.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lucky we still had some left which we hastily finished. Fantastic, it
>>>>
>>>> felt like we had just had a good ten hours of slumber and were ready for
>>>> another exciting day.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 4
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> After
>>>>  taking C to school, I popped into Dean's place with some more cash
>>>>
>>>> from the safe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Give me 5 grams, I don't want to run out."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That day we went to our doctor complaining of insomnia. He obliged by
>>>>
>>>> giving us a script for sleeping tablets.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We were
>>>>  set.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 5
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Three years later:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We had invested in a house in an exclusive suburb which we were letting
>>>> out on the basis that the tenants rent would pay the mortgage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Our tenants were moving out and we thought this the ideal opportunity to
>>>> move in and start a drug free life as the novelty had worn off and we
>>>> weren't feeling great anymore.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dean had quit so we were getting from another supplier.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I will never forget the day 5 year old C walked into the studio and said
>>>> "You know what,dad? Taking drugs is like taking a brand new house and
>>>> the more drugs
>>>>  you take,the older and dirtier the house gets until it
>>>>
>>>> turns into a dirty old cottage..................that's why you and mom
>>>> want to move to Dainfern."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> She was sharp,real sharp.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 6
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eight years after our first
>>>>  encounter:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here I sit, a divorced,lonely,broken,drug dependent 40 year old man.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All my accumulated wealth gone due to irrational investment,giving half
>>>>
>>>> of it away and my 2 designer drugs of choice,Gamma Hydroxy Buturate and
>>>>
>>>> Meth-cathanone (cat)consuming the rest.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No house,no studio,no friends,no family,no clients only the
>>>> uncomfortable cravings.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had been to a 12 step conventional rehab a few years earlier and had
>>>>
>>>> lasted 5 days.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then my ex told me about Ibogaine, a naturally occurring hallucinogenic
>>>> plant derivative used by the Ubuntu tribe during ceremonials,which was
>>>>
>>>> accidently found to
>>>>  stop cravings for heroin and other substances
>>>>
>>>> without withdrawals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> See, a conventional 6 week rehab program teaches you how to deal with
>>>> the cravings, whereas Ibogaine nullifies the cravings without the much
>>>>
>>>> feared
>>>>  withdrawals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don't get me wrong,Ibogaine is a tough route to take and the first 4
>>>> days were filled with hallucinations and ataxia (partial loss of control
>>>> of the limbs.), but worth every second.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is part of an email I sent my friend pertaining to one
>>>> hallucination I experienced:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The process was uncomfortable and time passed slowly as the plant worked
>>>> its way through my brain "reformatting" my hard drive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is a hallucinogenic and makes you very aware on an introspective as
>>>> well as a spiritual level.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Day one and I started hearing ancient chanting which grew louder at
>>>> night,especially before sleep where my
>>>>
>>>>  adventures would begin.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I heard a digeridoo type buzzing sound surrounding me and,as I dozed
>>>> off,was awoken by the buzzing of motorbikes and found myself in a skanky
>>>> hotel/nightclub surrounded by a massive
>>>>  amount of helmets belonging to a
>>>>
>>>> deadly  gang.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They performed a ritual type ceremony in which they selected the new
>>>> teenage leader based on size and strength,and then out of the back of
>>>> the club in walks..........C, my 11 year old daughter.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> She partakes in the ceremony and afterwards disappears.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I turn around and to my horror and disbelief,there she
>>>> is........performing fellatio on the new leader.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The leader walks up to me afterwards to shake my hand on raising such a
>>>>
>>>> skilled daughter and feelings of rage,hoplessness and fear of being the
>>>> lowest of the low overwhelm me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I tell C  in a calm,amicable way that her beauty and femina
>>>>  are the most
>>>> powerful weapons she has in a man's world which she should never give away.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "I didn't" she replied,pulling out R200 from her pocket.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Suddenly,I am awake,crying and
>>>>  shivering with the sickest sensation only
>>>>
>>>> described as a dad's worst nightmare.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Give up the narcotics or face the consequences" was the clearest,most
>>>> frightening message of the Ibogaine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> These type of hallucinations were experienced every night for the fist 4
>>>>
>>>> nights which I can recall in detail, and then a euphoria was experienced.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That was 3 weeks ago and I have absolutely no inclination to even
>>>>
>>>> entertain the thoughts of GHB or white powder.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am finally at peace and motivated beyond reason to become a success
>>>> story,not a statistic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Strange thing is I am attracting such positive energy now and feel more
>>>>
>>>> confident and creative, whilst being more
>>>>  focussed and grounded than
>>>> ever before.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 7
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In conclusion,Ibogaine definitely seems like the standard for treating
>>>> addiction over and above a very dated
>>>>  12 step regime.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We are constantly evolving, and with evolution comes change.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why go through a 6 week minimum rehabilitation program and still feel
>>>> the fear and uncertainty of a relapse when the alternative,Ibogaine,
>>>>
>>>> offers a solution to constant cravings in a week with very little chance
>>>> of relapse as the body is brought to a state of homeostasis relatively
>>>> quickly, avoiding nasty withdrawal symptoms?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is definitely a treatment for the individual who is sick  and tired
>>>>
>>>> of feeling sick and tired and really wants to return to sobriety without
>>>> having to be taught how to deal with his/her addictive tendencies in a
>>>> condescending and uncomfortable manner of what I consider to be a sorely
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> outdated 12 step program.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Within 2-3 weeks of the Ibogaine treatment,my energy levels, motivation,
>>>> creativity and general well being had returned to a state of
>>>>  normality
>>>> and my world had changed from grey to a colourful appreciation with no
>>>>
>>>> desire to return to the dark, uncomfortable place I had been in just a
>>>> few weeks earlier.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Beat that 12 step.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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