[Ibogaine] addiction

DC in AZ dcollier9 at cox.net
Mon Jul 21 21:11:50 EDT 2008


imo, snorting smack is the happy compromise here, it still can cause a rough 
enough jones gettin off it, if doing it all the time, and it doesn't give as 
hard of a slam
as a needle, but it lasts longer for a given dose. have known lots of 
snorters that didn't ruin their lives.
again its all about being responsible, and treating people the way we want 
to be treated.
there's always someone who ruins it for the rest of us, hence the laws that 
are out of control.
enjoy, no need to be a pig with it, too expensive anyway, smile
ps. and mj isn't even a drug, way better than alcoholisma.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donzo
"Love converts hearts, and gives peace."
__________________________________________________

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeremy Spence" <jlspence at mac.com>
To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 1:49 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] addiction


> Look, I am not trying to say a person can go back to their drug of
> choice and start injecting it again!  I just saying if a addict gets
> pain in his or her life they "might" still be able to take pain meds
> with no problem as long as they are a really hard person, that's what
> I am trying to say!
>
> And I don't think people need to view their self as addicts for the
> rest of their life if they are clean or use medications for the right
> reasons and they are not abusing them! That in a nut shell is what I
> am truly trying to say!
> JS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 21, 2008, at 2:24 PM, ibogaine-request at mindvox.com wrote:
>
>> Send Ibogaine mailing list submissions to
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. addiction (Jeremy Spence)
>>   2. Re: addiction (Kevin Walker)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:19:25 -0500
>> From: Jeremy Spence <jlspence at mac.com>
>> Subject: [Ibogaine] addiction
>> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>> Message-ID: <C69E82D1-2B9A-4AE4-8175-2BDCCF6F103D at mac.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>
>> yea, addiction is different for everybody!  I exspermented from time
>> to time when I was in high school, but never got out of control with
>> it, and never anything real hard!  No coke and for sure no H, not that
>> I judge anybody for it, because I later did try coke a few times.
>> Never wanted to using coke or anything really. I did like LSD, but
>> kind had a not so fun trip made me re think if i really wanted to try
>> and find it again?? It really was never around much, I mean acid I
>> mean.
>>
>> I did like to drink acohol, i probably would been a high functioning
>> dunk, possibly later in life if I had not had to quit because of my
>> IC, maybe, maybe not, i will never know for sure on that one??
>>
>> I don't feel just because a person uses drugs from time to time that
>> they are a addict! They might be heading in the direction if they keep
>> going with it???  It's a possibtely??  With the opiates though,
>> espeically the needle shit, i really don't think that there are many
>> people who can continue to control it for a really long time. I know
>> their are people out there who claim they can control the needle, but
>> from what I have seen, I don't think there are many, and if they say
>> they can I have say I don't really think they are really being real
>> with them self!
>>
>> Orally opiates are not too bad (although some people can't do that
>> either), but the needle can get crazy quick!! I know their are a small
>> sub group of people who may be able to keep it under wraps for a
>> while, but I don't it's possible to do long term, I think sooner or
>> later the needle gets yours ass and completely takes over!
>>
>> And I don't care what your doing it for,physical pain, emotionally
>> pain, on the weekends, every 3rd day, ect, ect, ect, ect.  Sooner or
>> later, your mind goes, "oh just one more time", "I can get by with it
>> this one time", "It won't hurt if its just one more time", "I do it
>> today, but I won't use tomorrow" "I'm in really bad pain today it will
>> be alright"  And sooner or later you are shooting more and more, and
>> it does not do what it use to! And then, your shooting up to 3-4 time
>> per day, and that's not working anymore! Yea, I know just how it goes
>> on that. And then your it go to where your just sick all the freak en
>> time, more so then high.
>>
>> I started shooting my pain meds because, for one, I had lost all my
>> self esteem because of a horrible illness that left me in un
>> controllable pain! My 3 girl friends(over the course of 10 years), all
>> three of them who been close to dumped me over my illness about the
>> same way!!  Amy one of my old g/f at least tried to be some what nice
>> about it, I will always have the up most respect for her about that.
>> But, anyways, I had gotten sick of dealing with everything, and just
>> did not care anymore and wanted to die! I thought this would be a good
>> way to end my life!! Yea, it you don't have a tolerance that's out the
>> freak en door!! Well needless to say, things got out of control for a
>> while, about 5 years+ while!
>>
>> I don't do that shit anymore with my pain meds though!  The morel of
>> the story is, no matter how bad thing are, you have to learn how to
>> deal with the shit, or else you just going to make that shit worse on
>> your self!!
>> I felt because I had that illness that was fucked and that I could do
>> what ever the fuck I wanted with my medication!  I never counted on
>> things getting out of control with them!!  I was in cancer type pain
>> with the disease I have, and I thought, well they give it to cancer
>> patents that are in that kind of pain, why not me?? So I took things
>> into my own hands!! I don't really regret being on pain meds, i just
>> wish i been a little bit stronger mentally, but it was really hard
>> being so young and to be in that much pain!!
>>
>> I still have the disease and I still have pain, but I just deal with
>> it better(barely).  I really don't want to shoot nothing anymore! I
>> don't really look at any of that shit the same way I did back then.
>>
>> It's just goes to show everybody on this board, that if you have
>> gotten off the hook with the opiates you can go back to taking the
>> stuff right again! It's just might take a while to get your mind
>> right!! The medical people don't believe this, they think once your
>> this "addict" your always this "little fucked up addict"  "for life"!!
>> I don't know if I believe that????  I think it all has to do with what
>> has happened in that persons life!!
>>
>>
>> I can't stand how medical thinks everybody's is a freak en text
>> book!!!
>>
>> I don't believe people are math problems!!! People are so much more
>> than that!!! I get real tired of hearing people calling them selfs
>> "junky"!! and "addicts"!, like they never can get over it!! THAT'S
>> BULL SHIT!! I am living proof of that!!!
>> People who do that, just give the medical a reason to call them that
>> and label them!! I've done it to! I just like to see people try not to
>> do it so much! It's just like a dirty label, and I think it does more
>> harm then good!
>> I feel addiction is a problem, that all it is, just like if you get
>> sick and go to the doctor and get help for a health problem or just a
>> have any other problem in your life, it's solvable!! You don't have to
>> be a label the rest of your life because you had a problem in the past
>> that is now fixed!  That's all i am saying!
>> And yes, I know some people stay addicted their whole life, that's
>> because they have not dealt with the problem! If really have dealt
>> with it they might be not be doing that type of shit?
>>
>> The reason I am still on pain meds is because of my pain, other wise
>> I  be off it. and I still hope to make it off it one day?? Maybe,
>> maybe not??  My IC is pretty bad, i just don't know about that one?
>> I mean, have every reason in the world to want go try and find
>> something to shoot up!! But I don't!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyways
>> Just my 2 cent worth!!
>> JS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 21, 2008, at 6:23 AM, ibogaine-request at mindvox.com wrote:
>>
>>> Send Ibogaine mailing list submissions to
>>> ibogaine at mindvox.com
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Ibogaine digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>  1. Re: Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment (Kevin Walker)
>>>  2. Re: Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment (simon loxton)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:51:49 +0200
>>> From: "Kevin Walker" <kevin at ibogaineafricanrenaissance.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>> Message-ID: <000801c8eb0f$06c43d60$0200a8c0 at KevinLaptop>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>> reply-type=original
>>>
>>> Hi Sophia,
>>>
>>> I believe a message from the heart!
>>>
>>> As you rightfully said many people experience similar things in
>>> different
>>> ways, some get caught up in things far quicker than others, and fall
>>> to the
>>> power of the drugs. I have yet to meet a person that purposely gone
>>> out and
>>> decided to become an addict out of choice. Different people fall
>>> victim to
>>> being an addict, having used or being associated to drugs for
>>> different
>>> periods in their lives, a person will never know at what point they
>>> will
>>> enter into a fixed lifestyle on being dependant on drugs and
>>> therefore
>>> become an addict. As you also mentioned an addict also needs to
>>> identify
>>> that he/she has a problem, and deal with it in whatever way they
>>> deem fit at
>>> that point in their lives, having to make the decision is the
>>> hardest part,
>>> an addict is scared as to what type of lifestyle plays out later.
>>> Always
>>> strange as they were never scared to partake in the initial use of
>>> drugs,
>>> but somehow are anxious and scared to revert back to a clean
>>> lifestyle.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> _____________________________________________
>>>
>>> NHP / Dr Kevin Walker (Reg No: 6206429)
>>>
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>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Sophia Depas" <mssmdepas at gmail.com>
>>> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:43 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have got a great deal out of reading this conversation(is it
>>>> called
>>>> that online?) not in relation to scoring (I couldn't resist
>>>> sorry)lol.
>>>>
>>>> Probably my most consistent  excuse for avoiding detox has been
>>>> related to my very strong beliefd system in regard to addiction in
>>>> its
>>>> many guises. Most spexcifically that I consider an addiction to be a
>>>> symptom of a problem and not the problem itself. However, I do
>>>> believe
>>>> that to a certain extent one will find the party person who went too
>>>> far and got stuck...But then there's a reaason for the party
>>>> initially
>>>> isn't thetrer?
>>>> I know that I have used in the self-destructive manner that I have,
>>>> in
>>>> order to survive and function adequately as a parent. I was not
>>>> parented and as my kids grew I believe my fear grew. I knew more
>>>> than
>>>> the average punter about smack cuz of studying psychology. I knew it
>>>> was not initself harmful. I initially used morphine as a painkiller,
>>>> and added h when it wasn't strong enough (I have endometriosis). I
>>>> subsequently used for seven years without getting physically
>>>> addicted.
>>>> And in this tikme discovered that it enabled me to fulfill my
>>>> motherly
>>>> duties with gusto! I started to plan the worst housework around h
>>>> days. I never used more than 2 days, and always had a minimum gap
>>>> of 3
>>>> days.  Eventually it all changed and I went downhill to my personal
>>>> pit of frustartion and inadequacy This was precipitated by a trip on
>>>> 2cb which was one of the best and extreme mind expanding experience
>>>> out. And it began my dodgy journey. I'm not sure I could get through
>>>> to physical independence without ibo.
>>>> I want to finally face feeling. I wish to demonstrate this to my
>>>> kids
>>>> although it's a little late! They are 15 and 18. And although I am
>>>> aware of the long post ibo road to recovery, I believe that the
>>>> initial ndecision is the most crucial factor.
>>>> I hope this isn't too off topic, or at all so...
>>>> love and happiness
>>>>
>>>> soph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/20/08, Matt Shriver <ibogamail at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Matt
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with what you say here.  What I think is not so good for
>>>>> the
>>>>> ibogaine movement is when someone gives one of these glowing
>>>>> accounts and
>>>>> people who have never been introduced to ibogaine read it and say
>>>>> "Oh wow
>>>>> is
>>>>> this stuff for real?  Where is this guy now?" only to find that
>>>>> he's off
>>>>> strung out somewhere.  This is what the family and friends of that
>>>>> person
>>>>> will see also.  But yes the results can be and are amazing
>>>>> sometimes, I
>>>>> tend
>>>>> to think miraculous is the correct word based on the fact that
>>>>> miracle
>>>>> means
>>>>> something done by God.  Whatever power it is that moves through
>>>>> ibogaine,
>>>>> it
>>>>> is deep, and wide, and primordial, and most of all powerful enough
>>>>> to be
>>>>> called by that term, or at least it seems so to me.  But stopping
>>>>> using
>>>>> dope
>>>>> and staying off of dope are two different things and a full time
>>>>> ibogaine
>>>>> experience is not practical.
>>>>>
>>>>> One thing that I think happens is that if an addict stays clean,
>>>>> the
>>>>> issues
>>>>> that contributed to their addiction will come up, when they are no-
>>>>> longer
>>>>> being repressed or avoided with drugs they will resurface.  And
>>>>> when they
>>>>> do
>>>>> they can either face them and deal with them or they can attempt to
>>>>> ignore
>>>>> and deny them.  If they choose the later, they will in time very
>>>>> likely
>>>>> wind
>>>>> up using dope again.  Ibogaine could be used to treat the cravings
>>>>> probably
>>>>> for a very long time, but I think more than cravings are
>>>>> involved.  How
>>>>> often do addicts use dope for other reasons: its available, they're
>>>>> bored,
>>>>> they're having a feeling they don't want, whatever...  Cravings
>>>>> are only
>>>>> a
>>>>> part of the reason for using dope.  But I also think that ibogaine
>>>>> itself
>>>>> helps treat those underlying issues to some extent by bringing
>>>>> them to
>>>>> consciousness in a non-traumatizing way.
>>>>>
>>>>> So boosters used to treat cravings could very well help to treat
>>>>> the
>>>>> underlying source of the addiction also.  But this also presumes a
>>>>> source
>>>>> that can be "treated", some people would say that addiction is a
>>>>> condition
>>>>> that cannot be cured.  From my own experience I would say both
>>>>> positions
>>>>> are
>>>>> true.  It appears that the deeper I dig into the underlying
>>>>> issues, the
>>>>> more
>>>>> issues are revealed underneath.  But the process of continually
>>>>> digging
>>>>> and
>>>>> revealing does in a way seem to affect something resembling a
>>>>> cure.  I
>>>>> have
>>>>> not had a craving to use heroin or crack or any of the other
>>>>> various
>>>>> drugs I
>>>>> abused in years.  I do however sometimes crave a change of
>>>>> feeling, I
>>>>> sometimes wish I could escape frustration or irritation and do so
>>>>> quickly.
>>>>> But even so drugs never sound like a good idea to me, they just
>>>>> don't, I
>>>>> can't even begin to convince myself that the results won't be the
>>>>> same as
>>>>> they always used to be which was just horrendous.  So my sense is
>>>>> that if
>>>>> I
>>>>> stopped doing the things I do to "treat" my addiction, if I stopped
>>>>> working
>>>>> on myself, that could change and drugs might start to sound like a
>>>>> god
>>>>> idea
>>>>> again.
>>>>>
>>>>> My opinions anonymous is that the real cure or treatment for
>>>>> addiction
>>>>> is
>>>>> to develop a lifestyle that includes a process for continual
>>>>> self-examination and personal responsibility.   The details are
>>>>> not that
>>>>> important just that there is a process and it is fully
>>>>> incorporated into
>>>>> the
>>>>> lifestyle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt.
>>>>>
>>>>> Matthew Zielinski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I think its only natural that people who had a positive,
>>>>> enlightening
>>>>> first
>>>>> ibogaine experience praise it as a life saving gift.   Sudenly
>>>>> they are
>>>>> overwhelmed with happines and joy without resorting to using
>>>>> anything to
>>>>> get
>>>>> there so that is a big deal.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is just a fact.  And it is an amazing fact!
>>>>>
>>>>> If and when they relapse they do it on their own accord. They
>>>>> have a
>>>>> choice
>>>>> to use or not to use.  That doesnt diminish the fact that ibogaine
>>>>> helped
>>>>> them tremendously in those first weeks.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the whole ibogaine program should be revised a bit.  I
>>>>> think more
>>>>> emphasis should be placed on boosters and not solely on the first
>>>>> flood
>>>>> dose.  Only looking at my self here but without the booster doses
>>>>> I think
>>>>> I
>>>>> might have slipped again.  Now with  regualar boosters(even though
>>>>> I only
>>>>> had 2) I have better control over my behaviour and the way I react
>>>>> to
>>>>> trigers/cravings/situations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ibogaine is an amazing tool to detox with since it elimenates most
>>>>> of the
>>>>> wd's  but as far as abstianance rate its not that affective.
>>>>> Booster
>>>>> doses
>>>>> should be implemented as a part of the ibogaine program.  Regular
>>>>> boosters
>>>>> should be advocated as the means to help acheaive that sobriety.
>>>>> Since
>>>>> I'm
>>>>> only speaking from personal experience and only a short time of
>>>>> sobriety
>>>>> its
>>>>> hard to establish if thats true but speaking with few people from
>>>>> the
>>>>> list
>>>>> it does seem to be the case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Happy Sunday!
>>>>> Matt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/20/08, DC in AZ <dcollier9 at cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> depends on what label you apply to yourself by your actions, a
>>>>>> "party
>>>>> person" having a good time after work is done, and keeping a
>>>>> responsible
>>>>> life situation
>>>>>> where you pay your bills, and you care about others is one case...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> or one can label themself an "addict" where your fun is now
>>>>>> causing you
>>>>>> to
>>>>> not be responsible, and you dont care about anyone, even yourself,
>>>>>> and so on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the drug being used properly or abused - is only a small part of
>>>>>> the
>>>>> personality defects, or virtues being addressed (or ignored).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but just so fun-loving people know that they may use drugs without
>>>>>> being
>>>>> "an addiction" problem person with deep issues. that is not
>>>>> addressed by
>>>>> NA,
>>>>>> or so I have heard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> imo.
>>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Donzo
>>>>>> "Love converts hearts, and gives peace."
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Matt Shriver
>>>>>> To: The Ibogaine List
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:26 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had similar reactions to Douglas.  I had thought about
>>>>>> responding
>>>>>> to
>>>>> this before but never got around to it.  I think the author over-
>>>>> stresses
>>>>> the "miracle cure" angle to ibogaine which I don't think is
>>>>> entirely
>>>>> helpful.  I will be the first to admit that there is more than
>>>>> just a
>>>>> grain
>>>>> of truth to that perspective but it is not the whole story.  From
>>>>> what I
>>>>> have seen on this list and in myself, those who get the amazing,
>>>>> ecstatic,
>>>>> miraculously delivered from the throes of addiction experience,
>>>>> those are
>>>>> the ones most likely to write something like this, but if they do
>>>>> not
>>>>> follow
>>>>> it up with any additional effort, then more often then not they
>>>>> wind up
>>>>> using again.  And that pattern is I think not helpful for
>>>>> ibogaine.  The
>>>>> grain of truth is in the fact that people actually do have these
>>>>> experiences, I have myself.  But the whole truth is that if
>>>>> nothing else
>>>>> changes, then in the long run, nothing at all changes and they
>>>>> wind up
>>>>> right
>>>>> back where they started.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NA is one way that many people find freedom from drug addiction
>>>>>> but it
>>>>>> is
>>>>> not the only way. I think that people who are overly judgmental of
>>>>> it are
>>>>> really dealing with their own internal issues that they are
>>>>> projecting
>>>>> onto
>>>>> NA.  I will be the last to claim that NA is without it's
>>>>> problems.  But
>>>>> it's
>>>>> more or less like say for instance the Church of Jesus Christ of
>>>>> Latter
>>>>> Day
>>>>> Saints, the Mormons.  How many people go around with a resentment
>>>>> against
>>>>> the Mormons, probably not a lot.  But just as with NA the tendency
>>>>> is to
>>>>> view the whole organization based on the interactions you have
>>>>> with any
>>>>> of
>>>>> it's members.  And these people will ring your doorbell and
>>>>> interrupt
>>>>> whatever it is you are doing to try and sell you literature about a
>>>>> religion
>>>>> you are probably not even interested in.  Some of them are pushy.
>>>>> Some
>>>>> of
>>>>> them are totally cool.  In my experience they are all very polite
>>>>> (other
>>>>> than sometimes being overly persistent or just generally
>>>>> bothersome like
>>>>> when different ones come by 3 days apart, c'mon I already told the
>>>>> last
>>>>> guys
>>>>> I wasn't interested).  But my point is that if you go away from
>>>>> these
>>>>> interactions with a resentment about the the Mormons in general
>>>>> than that
>>>>> is
>>>>> really about you, not the Mormons.  And it seems like there are a
>>>>> lot of
>>>>> addicts running around with 12-step resentment.  If it's not for
>>>>> you then
>>>>> cool, don't go.  But if you go around dissing on it you may well be
>>>>> denying
>>>>> someone else access to the very method that would work best for
>>>>> them to
>>>>> gain
>>>>> freedom from drug addiction.  Hundreds of thousands have found
>>>>> help in NA
>>>>> and if you include AA then you can change that number to millions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But just to get back to Douglas' point, addiction doesn't happen
>>>>>> in a
>>>>> vacuum.  There are associated behaviors, thought patterns, habits,
>>>>> and
>>>>> tendencies that all support continuing in that lifestyle.  These
>>>>> things
>>>>> must
>>>>> be dealt with and these things are usually already present prior
>>>>> to drug
>>>>> addiction so simply returning to the pre-drug taking life is not
>>>>> exactly
>>>>> realistic.  If all you remove is the physical and psychological
>>>>> addiction
>>>>> to
>>>>> a specific substance you have essentially only treated the
>>>>> manifestations
>>>>> of
>>>>> the issue, not the actual issue itself.  However you want to talk
>>>>> about
>>>>> addiction and in whatever terms, most people would agree that it
>>>>> is more
>>>>> than simply the repeated use of a substance.  That is the most
>>>>> obvious
>>>>> outward manifestation but many personality traits and behaviors
>>>>> seemingly
>>>>> unrelated to the drug use are also shared among addicts to say
>>>>> nothing of
>>>>> people who manifest addictive behaviors around activities like
>>>>> gambling
>>>>> that
>>>>> have nothing at all to do with consuming mind altering substances.
>>>>> Whatever
>>>>> it is that leads people into a situation where they become
>>>>> dependent on
>>>>> the
>>>>> repeated use of a drug, simply removing the drug from the over-all
>>>>> picture
>>>>> does not actually impact on that thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Douglas Fraser wrote:
>>>>>> hrm.... I had a khat plant while I was living in Vancouver. Never
>>>>>> really
>>>>>> used it b/c it was of the weak variety, but it's a nice plant....
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> course, I was not refining the chemical to excess a la coca and
>>>>> cocaine....
>>>>>> but speed freaks are .. freaks and that sort of applies to our
>>>>>> overcaffeinated Western culture. And of course, it's always
>>>>>> easier to
>>>>>> blame the chemicals than one's life and how one's living it and
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> acknowledging one's problems
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be honest, what bugs me about this story is that the author
>>>>>> does not
>>>>>> ever seem to acknowledge the chemicals were just tools for him to
>>>>>> escape
>>>>>> his issues - it's like he never had any issues and then one day,
>>>>>> poof!
>>>>>> he's an addict. maybe it's just my projections... and the way he
>>>>>> writes.
>>>>>> Then he imparts such power to ibogaine.. or seems to. This is a
>>>>>> subtle
>>>>>> point, but it's a crucial one. Ibogaine can be considered to have
>>>>>> something of a "cult" surrounding it, much like ayahuasca does,
>>>>>> and if
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> (society) can deal with those projections in an honest manner,
>>>>>> then we
>>>>>> won't be faced with the trouble that acid and MDMA had to deal
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> (the
>>>>>> hysteria, the bans, etc). then again, I'm an idealist....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> doug
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kevin Walker wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To The List.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A patient forward this attachment and asked me please to publish
>>>>>> it on
>>>>>> Mindvox for him!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>> THE EVOLUTION OF ADDICTION TREATMENT- By Bareman 12
>>>>>> July 2008
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Try some of this." smiled Dean, handing my wife and I a small
>>>>>> piece of
>>>>>> paper with some white powder in the centre.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "It's called cut or cat and is a chemical version of the
>>>>>> plant ,cut,
>>>>>> used to enhance energy and concentration,much like a herbal
>>>>>> version of
>>>>>> cocaine."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 15 minutes later we were driving to our magnificent , fully paid
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> house, with our music studio, one of the finest and most magical
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We were feeling motivated, on top of the world,energetic beyond
>>>>>> belief
>>>>>> and excited about the prospects of life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That powder sure had a kick to it, a kick that we would later be
>>>>>> directed toward my manhood.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Half an hour after arriving home and working passionately on a new
>>>>>> song,
>>>>>> we felt the need for a little more of the magic powder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Hey Dean, got any more cat?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Sure, I make the stuff,but it's rather expensive to produce so I
>>>>>> sell
>>>>>> it to my friends at 150 a gram."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I"m coming back,give me 2."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I walked upstairs to our safe where we had about 100 00 rand in
>>>>>> cash,
>>>>>> and took a mere 300 for Dean.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See, I figured for 300 rand we were so prolific and energetic
>>>>>> that we
>>>>>> could do 2 days work in one, so why not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We had tried Ritalin before and cat was like it's big brother in
>>>>>> so far
>>>>>> as focus and energy was concerned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dean told me it was based on a naturally occurring herb, so what
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> harm?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We finished working in the early hours of the morning, sustaining
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> energies by topping up with another line every half hour or so,and
>>>>>> let's
>>>>>> just say making love was explosive to say the least. Bonus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now as for our sleep life, the birds were chirping,the sun was
>>>>>> rising
>>>>>> and we had no intentions of entertaining the notion of alpha/beta
>>>>>> states
>>>>>> as we had to get our daughter ready for school.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lucky we still had some left which we hastily finished.
>>>>>> Fantastic, it
>>>>>> felt like we had just had a good ten hours of slumber and were
>>>>>> ready
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> another exciting day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After taking C to school, I popped into Dean's place with some
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> cash
>>>>>> from the safe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Give me 5 grams, I don't want to run out."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That day we went to our doctor complaining of insomnia. He
>>>>>> obliged by
>>>>>> giving us a script for sleeping tablets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We were set.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Three years later:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We had invested in a house in an exclusive suburb which we were
>>>>>> letting
>>>>>> out on the basis that the tenants rent would pay the mortgage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our tenants were moving out and we thought this the ideal
>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> move in and start a drug free life as the novelty had worn off
>>>>>> and we
>>>>>> weren't feeling great anymore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dean had quit so we were getting from another supplier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will never forget the day 5 year old C walked into the studio
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> said
>>>>>> "You know what,dad? Taking drugs is like taking a brand new house
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> the more drugs you take,the older and dirtier the house gets
>>>>>> until it
>>>>>> turns into a dirty old cottage..................that's
>>>>> why you and mom
>>>>>> want to move to Dainfern."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She was sharp,real sharp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 6
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eight years after our first encounter:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here I sit, a divorced,lonely,broken,drug dependent 40 year old
>>>>>> man.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All my accumulated wealth gone due to irrational
>>>>>> investment,giving half
>>>>>> of it away and my 2 designer drugs of choice,Gamma Hydroxy
>>>>>> Buturate and
>>>>>> Meth-cathanone (cat)consuming the rest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No house,no studio,no friends,no family,no clients only the
>>>>>> uncomfortable cravings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had been to a 12 step conventional rehab a few years earlier
>>>>>> and had
>>>>>> lasted 5 days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then my ex told me about Ibogaine, a naturally occurring
>>>>>> hallucinogenic
>>>>>> plant derivative used by the Ubuntu tribe during
>>>>>> ceremonials,which was
>>>>>> accidently found to stop cravings for heroin and other substances
>>>>>> without withdrawals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See, a conventional 6 week rehab program teaches you how to deal
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the cravings, whereas Ibogaine nullifies the cravings without the
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> feared withdrawals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't get me wrong,Ibogaine is a tough route to take and the
>>>>>> first 4
>>>>>> days were filled with hallucinations and ataxia (partial loss of
>>>>>> control
>>>>>> of the limbs.), but worth every second.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is part of an email I sent my friend pertaining to one
>>>>>> hallucination I experienced:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The process was uncomfortable and time passed slowly as the plant
>>>>>> worked
>>>>>> its way through my brain "reformatting" my hard drive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is a hallucinogenic and makes you very aware on an
>>>>>> introspective as
>>>>>> well as a spiritual level.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Day one and I started hearing ancient chanting which grew louder
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> night,especially before sleep where my adventures would begin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I heard a digeridoo type buzzing sound surrounding me and,as I
>>>>>> dozed
>>>>>> off,was awoken by the buzzing of motorbikes and found myself in a
>>>>>> skanky
>>>>>> hotel/nightclub surrounded by a massive amount of helmets
>>>>>> belonging to
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> deadly gang.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They performed a ritual type ceremony in which they selected the
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> teenage leader based on size and strength,and then out of the
>>>>>> back of
>>>>>> the club in walks..........C, my 11 year old daughter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She partakes in the ceremony and afterwards disappears.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I turn around and to my horror and disbelief,there she
>>>>>> is........performing fellatio on the new leader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The leader walks up to me afterwards to shake my hand on raising
>>>>>> such a
>>>>>> skilled daughter and feelings of rage,hoplessness and fear of
>>>>>> being the
>>>>>> lowest of the low overwhelm me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tell C in a calm,amicable way that her beauty and femina are
>>>>>> the most
>>>>>> powerful weapons she has in a man's world which she should never
>>>>>> give
>>>>> away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I didn't" she replied,pulling out R200 from her pocket.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Suddenly,I am awake,crying and shivering with the sickest
>>>>>> sensation
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> described as a dad's worst nightmare.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Give up the narcotics or face the consequences" was the
>>>>>> clearest,most
>>>>>> frightening message of the Ibogaine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These type of hallucinations were experienced every night for the
>>>>>> fist
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>> nights which I can recall in detail, and then a euphoria was
>>>>>> experienced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That was 3 weeks ago and I have absolutely no inclination to even
>>>>>> entertain the thoughts of GHB or white powder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am finally at peace and motivated beyond reason to become a
>>>>>> success
>>>>>> story,not a statistic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Strange thing is I am attracting such positive energy now and
>>>>>> feel more
>>>>>> confident and creative, whilst being more focussed and grounded
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> ever before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 7
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In conclusion,Ibogaine definitely seems like the standard for
>>>>>> treating
>>>>>> addiction over and above a very dated 12 step regime.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are constantly evolving, and with evolution comes change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why go through a 6 week minimum rehabilitation program and still
>>>>>> feel
>>>>>> the fear and uncertainty of a relapse when the
>>>>>> alternative,Ibogaine,
>>>>>> offers a solution to constant cravings in a week with very little
>>>>>> chance
>>>>>> of relapse as the body is brought to a state of homeostasis
>>>>>> relatively
>>>>>> quickly, avoiding nasty withdrawal symptoms?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is definitely a treatment for the individual who is sick and
>>>>>> tired
>>>>>> of feeling sick and tired and really wants to return to sobriety
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> having to be taught how to deal with his/her addictive tendencies
>>>>>> in a
>>>>>> condescending and uncomfortable manner of what I consider to be a
>>>>>> sorely
>>>>>> outdated 12 step program.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Within 2-3 weeks of the Ibogaine treatment,my energy levels,
>>>>>> motivation,
>>>>>> creativity and general well being had returned to a state of
>>>>>> normality
>>>>>> and my world had changed from grey to a colourful appreciation
>>>>>> with no
>>>>>> desire to return to the dark, uncomfortable place I had been in
>>>>>> just a
>>>>>> few weeks earlier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beat that 12 step.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::
>>>>> [%][)
>>>>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::
>>>>> [%][)
>>>>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::
>>>>> [%][)
>>>>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:22:47 +0000 (GMT)
>>> From: simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>> Message-ID: <465804.4056.qm at web28615.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Hey Matt;
>>>
>>> Thats a very important point you have made.
>>>
>>> Personally I struggle getting long term feedback from patients.
>>> There is a lot of information before; during and just after the
>>> experience but not nearly as much six months to a year later. I try
>>> to stress the importance of just keeping in contact so that when
>>> whatever the usual triggers start presenting themselves they can be
>>> dealt with; easily if caught in time.
>>>
>>> The other problem I have experienced with people who dont stay in
>>> touch and continue with some form of after care; is that they only
>>> respond when things are too late or there has already been a lapse.
>>> In these situations if they continue to go it alone its common to
>>> think the ibogaine has not worked (But thats a whole topic on its
>>> own)
>>>
>>> So I would stress the importance of keeping in touch. Obviously it
>>> would be easier to have a six month program or some thing like that
>>> but thats not everyones cup of tea or even do'able in most cases.
>>>
>>> Keep well Matt.
>>>
>>> Si'
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Matthew Zielinski <masterhermesbathory at gmail.com>
>>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 12:17:23 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>
>>>
>>> I think its only natural that people who had a positive,
>>> enlightening first ibogaine experience praise it as a life saving
>>> gift.   Sudenly they are overwhelmed with happines and joy without
>>> resorting to using anything to get there so that is a big deal.
>>>
>>> That is just a fact.  And it is an amazing fact!
>>>
>>> If and when they relapse they do it on their own accord. They have a
>>> choice to use or not to use.  That doesnt diminish the fact that
>>> ibogaine helped them tremendously in those first weeks.
>>>
>>> I think the whole ibogaine program should be revised a bit.  I think
>>> more emphasis should be placed on boosters and not solely on the
>>> first flood dose.  Only looking at my self here but without the
>>> booster doses I think I might have slipped again.  Now with
>>> regualar boosters(even though I only had 2) I have better control
>>> over my behaviour and the way I react to trigers/cravings/situations.
>>>
>>> Ibogaine is an amazing tool to detox with since it elimenates most
>>> of the wd's  but as far as abstianance rate its not that affective.
>>> Booster doses should be implemented as a part of the ibogaine
>>> program.  Regular boosters should be advocated as the means to help
>>> acheaive that sobriety.  Since I'm only speaking from personal
>>> experience and only a short time of sobriety its hard to establish
>>> if thats true but speaking with few people from the list it does
>>> seem to be the case.
>>>
>>> Happy Sunday!
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/20/08, DC in AZ <dcollier9 at cox.net> wrote:
>>> depends on what label you apply to yourself by your actions, a
>>> "party person" having a good time after work is done, and keeping a
>>> responsible life situation
>>> where you pay your bills, and you care about others is one case...
>>>
>>> or one can label themself an "addict" where your fun is now causing
>>> you to not be responsible, and you dont care about anyone, even
>>> yourself,
>>> and so on.
>>>
>>> the drug being used properly or abused - is only a small part of the
>>> personality defects, or virtues being addressed (or ignored).
>>>
>>> but just so fun-loving people know that they may use drugs without
>>> being "an addiction" problem person with deep issues. that is not
>>> addressed by NA,
>>> or so I have heard.
>>>
>>> imo.
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Donzo
>>> "Love converts hearts, and gives peace."
>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Matt Shriver
>>> To: The Ibogaine List
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:26 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>
>>> I had similar reactions to Douglas.  I had thought about responding
>>> to this before but never got around to it.  I think the author over-
>>> stresses the "miracle cure" angle to ibogaine which I don't think is
>>> entirely helpful.  I will be the first to admit that there is more
>>> than just a grain of truth to that perspective but it is not the
>>> whole story.  From what I have seen on this list and in myself,
>>> those who get the amazing, ecstatic, miraculously delivered from the
>>> throes of addiction experience, those are the ones most likely to
>>> write something like this, but if they do not follow it up with any
>>> additional effort, then more often then not they wind up using
>>> again.  And that pattern is I think not helpful for ibogaine.  The
>>> grain of truth is in the fact that people actually do have these
>>> experiences, I have myself.  But the whole truth is that if nothing
>>> else changes, then in the long run, nothing at all changes and they
>>> wind up right back where they
>>> started.
>>>
>>> NA is one way that many people find freedom from drug addiction but
>>> it is not the only way. I think that people who are overly
>>> judgmental of it are really dealing with their own internal issues
>>> that they are projecting onto NA.  I will be the last to claim that
>>> NA is without it's problems.  But it's more or less like say for
>>> instance the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the
>>> Mormons.  How many people go around with a resentment against the
>>> Mormons, probably not a lot.  But just as with NA the tendency is to
>>> view the whole organization based on the interactions you have with
>>> any of it's members.  And these people will ring your doorbell and
>>> interrupt whatever it is you are doing to try and sell you
>>> literature about a religion you are probably not even interested
>>> in.  Some of them are pushy.  Some of them are totally cool.  In my
>>> experience they are all very polite (other than sometimes being
>>> overly persistent or just generally bothersome like
>>> when different ones come by 3 days apart, c'mon I already told the
>>> last guys I wasn't interested).  But my point is that if you go away
>>> from these interactions with a resentment about the the Mormons in
>>> general than that is really about you, not the Mormons.  And it
>>> seems like there are a lot of addicts running around with 12-step
>>> resentment.  If it's not for you then cool, don't go.  But if you go
>>> around dissing on it you may well be denying someone else access to
>>> the very method that would work best for them to gain freedom from
>>> drug addiction.  Hundreds of thousands have found help in NA and if
>>> you include AA then you can change that number to millions.
>>>
>>> But just to get back to Douglas' point, addiction doesn't happen in
>>> a vacuum.  There are associated behaviors, thought patterns, habits,
>>> and tendencies that all support continuing in that lifestyle.  These
>>> things must be dealt with and these things are usually already
>>> present prior to drug addiction so simply returning to the pre-drug
>>> taking life is not exactly realistic.  If all you remove is the
>>> physical and psychological addiction to a specific substance you
>>> have essentially only treated the manifestations of the issue, not
>>> the actual issue itself.  However you want to talk about addiction
>>> and in whatever terms, most people would agree that it is more than
>>> simply the repeated use of a substance.  That is the most obvious
>>> outward manifestation but many personality traits and behaviors
>>> seemingly unrelated to the drug use are also shared among addicts to
>>> say nothing of people who manifest addictive behaviors around
>>> activities like gambling that have
>>> nothing at all to do with consuming mind altering substances.
>>> Whatever it is that leads people into a situation where they become
>>> dependent on the repeated use of a drug, simply removing the drug
>>> from the over-all picture does not actually impact on that thing.
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>> Douglas Fraser wrote:
>>> hrm....  I had a khat plant while I was living in Vancouver.  Never
>>> really
>>> used it b/c it was of the weak variety, but it's a nice plant....
>>> and of
>>> course, I was not refining the chemical to excess a la coca and
>>> cocaine....
>>>  but speed freaks are .. freaks and that sort of applies to our
>>> overcaffeinated Western culture.   And of course, it's always easier
>>> to
>>> blame the chemicals than one's life and how one's living it and not
>>> acknowledging one's problems
>>>
>>> To be honest, what bugs me about this story is that the author does
>>> not
>>> ever seem to acknowledge the chemicals were just tools for him to
>>> escape
>>> his issues - it's like he never had any issues and then one day,
>>> poof!
>>> he's an addict.   maybe it's just my projections... and the way he
>>> writes.
>>>   Then he imparts such power to ibogaine.. or seems to.  This is a
>>> subtle
>>> point, but it's a crucial one.  Ibogaine can be considered to have
>>> something of a "cult" surrounding it, much like ayahuasca does, and
>>> if we
>>> (society) can deal with those projections in an honest manner, then
>>> we
>>> won't be faced with the trouble that acid and MDMA had to deal with
>>> (the
>>> hysteria, the bans, etc).     then again, I'm an idealist....
>>>
>>> doug
>>>
>>> Kevin Walker wrote:
>>>
>>> To The List.
>>>
>>> A patient forward this attachment and asked me please to publish it
>>> on
>>> Mindvox for him!
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Kevin
>>> THE EVOLUTION OF ADDICTION TREATMENT- By Bareman                   12
>>> July 2008
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 1
>>>
>>> "Try some of this." smiled Dean, handing my wife and I a small piece
>>> of
>>> paper with some white powder in the centre.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "It's called cut or cat and is a chemical version of the plant ,cut,
>>> used to enhance energy and concentration,much like a herbal version
>>> of
>>> cocaine."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 15 minutes later we were driving to our magnificent , fully paid for
>>> house, with our music studio, one of the finest and most magical in
>>> the
>>> country.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We were feeling motivated, on top of the world,energetic beyond
>>> belief
>>> and excited about the prospects of life.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That powder sure had a kick to it, a kick that we would later  be
>>> directed toward my manhood.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 2
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Half an hour after arriving home and working passionately on a new
>>> song,
>>> we felt the need for a little more of the magic powder.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Hey Dean, got any more cat?"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Sure, I make the stuff,but it's rather expensive to produce so I
>>> sell
>>> it to my friends at 150 a gram."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "I"m coming back,give me 2."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I walked upstairs to our safe where we had about 100 00 rand in cash,
>>> and took a mere 300 for Dean.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> See, I figured for 300 rand we were so prolific and energetic that we
>>> could do 2 days work in one, so why not?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We had tried Ritalin before and cat was like it's big brother in so
>>> far
>>> as focus and energy was concerned.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dean told me it was based on a naturally occurring herb, so what was
>>> the
>>> harm?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 3
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We finished working in the early hours of the morning, sustaining our
>>> energies by topping up with another line every half hour or so,and
>>> let's
>>> just say making love was explosive to say the least. Bonus.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now as for our sleep life, the birds were chirping,the sun was rising
>>> and we had no intentions of entertaining the notion of alpha/beta
>>> states
>>> as we had to get our daughter ready for school.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Lucky we still had some left which we hastily finished. Fantastic, it
>>> felt like we had just had a good ten hours of slumber and were ready
>>> for
>>> another exciting day.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 4
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> After taking C to school, I popped into Dean's place with some more
>>> cash
>>> from the safe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Give me 5 grams, I don't want to run out."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That day we went to our doctor complaining of insomnia. He obliged by
>>> giving us a script for sleeping tablets.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We were set.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Three years later:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We had invested in a house in an exclusive suburb which we were
>>> letting
>>> out on the basis that the tenants rent would pay the mortgage.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Our tenants were moving out and we thought this the ideal
>>> opportunity to
>>> move in and start a drug free life as the novelty had worn off and we
>>> weren't feeling great anymore.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dean had quit so we were getting from another supplier.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I will never forget the day 5 year old C walked into the studio and
>>> said
>>> "You know what,dad? Taking drugs is like taking a brand new house and
>>> the more drugs you take,the older and dirtier the house gets until it
>>> turns into a dirty old cottage..................that's why you and
>>> mom
>>> want to move to Dainfern."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> She was sharp,real sharp.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 6
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Eight years after our first encounter:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here I sit, a divorced,lonely,broken,drug dependent 40 year old man.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All my accumulated wealth gone due to irrational investment,giving
>>> half
>>> of it away and my 2 designer drugs of choice,Gamma Hydroxy Buturate
>>> and
>>> Meth-cathanone (cat)consuming the rest.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No house,no studio,no friends,no family,no clients only the
>>> uncomfortable cravings.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I had been to a 12 step conventional rehab a few years earlier and
>>> had
>>> lasted 5 days.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Then my ex told me about Ibogaine, a naturally occurring
>>> hallucinogenic
>>> plant derivative used by the Ubuntu tribe during ceremonials,which
>>> was
>>> accidently found to stop cravings for heroin and other substances
>>> without withdrawals.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> See, a conventional 6 week rehab program teaches you how to deal with
>>> the cravings, whereas Ibogaine nullifies the cravings without the
>>> much
>>> feared withdrawals.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Don't get me wrong,Ibogaine is a tough route to take and the first 4
>>> days were filled with hallucinations and ataxia (partial loss of
>>> control
>>> of the limbs.), but worth every second.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is part of an email I sent my friend pertaining to one
>>> hallucination I experienced:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The process was uncomfortable and time passed slowly as the plant
>>> worked
>>> its way through my brain "reformatting" my hard drive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is a hallucinogenic and makes you very aware on an introspective
>>> as
>>> well as a spiritual level.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Day one and I started hearing ancient chanting which grew louder at
>>> night,especially before sleep where my adventures would begin.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I heard a digeridoo type buzzing sound surrounding me and,as I dozed
>>> off,was awoken by the buzzing of motorbikes and found myself in a
>>> skanky
>>> hotel/nightclub surrounded by a massive amount of helmets belonging
>>> to a
>>> deadly  gang.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> They performed a ritual type ceremony in which they selected the new
>>> teenage leader based on size and strength,and then out of the back of
>>> the club in walks..........C, my 11 year old daughter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> She partakes in the ceremony and afterwards disappears.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I turn around and to my horror and disbelief,there she
>>> is........performing fellatio on the new leader.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The leader walks up to me afterwards to shake my hand on raising
>>> such a
>>> skilled daughter and feelings of rage,hoplessness and fear of being
>>> the
>>> lowest of the low overwhelm me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I tell C  in a calm,amicable way that her beauty and femina are the
>>> most
>>> powerful weapons she has in a man's world which she should never
>>> give away.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "I didn't" she replied,pulling out R200 from her pocket.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Suddenly,I am awake,crying and shivering with the sickest sensation
>>> only
>>> described as a dad's worst nightmare.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Give up the narcotics or face the consequences" was the
>>> clearest,most
>>> frightening message of the Ibogaine.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> These type of hallucinations were experienced every night for the
>>> fist 4
>>> nights which I can recall in detail, and then a euphoria was
>>> experienced.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That was 3 weeks ago and I have absolutely no inclination to even
>>> entertain the thoughts of GHB or white powder.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am finally at peace and motivated beyond reason to become a success
>>> story,not a statistic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Strange thing is I am attracting such positive energy now and feel
>>> more
>>> confident and creative, whilst being more focussed and grounded than
>>> ever before.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 7
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In conclusion,Ibogaine definitely seems like the standard for
>>> treating
>>> addiction over and above a very dated 12 step regime.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We are constantly evolving, and with evolution comes change.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why go through a 6 week minimum rehabilitation program and still feel
>>> the fear and uncertainty of a relapse when the alternative,Ibogaine,
>>> offers a solution to constant cravings in a week with very little
>>> chance
>>> of relapse as the body is brought to a state of homeostasis
>>> relatively
>>> quickly, avoiding nasty withdrawal symptoms?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is definitely a treatment for the individual who is sick  and
>>> tired
>>> of feeling sick and tired and really wants to return to sobriety
>>> without
>>> having to be taught how to deal with his/her addictive tendencies
>>> in a
>>> condescending and uncomfortable manner of what I consider to be a
>>> sorely
>>> outdated 12 step program.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Within 2-3 weeks of the Ibogaine treatment,my energy levels,
>>> motivation,
>>> creativity and general well being had returned to a state of
>>> normality
>>> and my world had changed from grey to a colourful appreciation with
>>> no
>>> desire to return to the dark, uncomfortable place I had been in
>>> just a
>>> few weeks earlier.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Beat that 12 step.
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>> End of Ibogaine Digest, Vol 11, Issue 45
>>> ****************************************
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:22:19 +0200
>> From: "Kevin Walker" <kevin at ibogaineafricanrenaissance.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] addiction
>> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Message-ID: <000801c8eb67$1b4e6320$6700000a at kevin>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Hi Jeremy,
>>
>> just for a laugh how many recovering "flu addicts" do you know?
>>
>> or recovering  "Rubella" (German measles) cases, that stand / sit in a
>> little room and put their hand up " My name is John / Mary and I am a
>> recovering "flu"
>> addict" ..............................BlaBlaBla........
>>
>> Kevin.
>> ___________________________________________________________________
>> NHP / Dr Kevin Walker (Reg No: 6206429)
>>
>>
>> Disclaimer and Confidentiality Note:
>> This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to
>> which
>> it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged,
>> confidential and exempt from exposure under applicable law.   If the
>> reader
>> of this message is not the sole authorised recipient you are hereby
>> notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of the
>> communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this in
>> error
>> please destroy immediately. Whilst suitable precautions against virus
>> transmittal are taken by IBOGAINE AFRICAN RENAISSANCE (Pty)  Ltd (and
>> associated companies)
>> we cannot accept any responsibility for viruses or their consequences.
>>
>> 3 Harry van Wyk Street Norkem Park
>> Kempton Park
>> 1619
>> Tel:+27 11 9764314
>> Cell:+27 82 557 8480
>> www.ibogaineafricanrenaisssance.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jeremy Spence" <jlspence at mac.com>
>> To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:19 PM
>> Subject: [Ibogaine] addiction
>>
>>
>>> yea, addiction is different for everybody!  I exspermented from time
>>> to time when I was in high school, but never got out of control with
>>> it, and never anything real hard!  No coke and for sure no H, not
>>> that
>>> I judge anybody for it, because I later did try coke a few times.
>>> Never wanted to using coke or anything really. I did like LSD, but
>>> kind had a not so fun trip made me re think if i really wanted to try
>>> and find it again?? It really was never around much, I mean acid I
>>> mean.
>>>
>>> I did like to drink acohol, i probably would been a high functioning
>>> dunk, possibly later in life if I had not had to quit because of my
>>> IC, maybe, maybe not, i will never know for sure on that one??
>>>
>>> I don't feel just because a person uses drugs from time to time that
>>> they are a addict! They might be heading in the direction if they
>>> keep
>>> going with it???  It's a possibtely??  With the opiates though,
>>> espeically the needle shit, i really don't think that there are many
>>> people who can continue to control it for a really long time. I know
>>> their are people out there who claim they can control the needle, but
>>> from what I have seen, I don't think there are many, and if they say
>>> they can I have say I don't really think they are really being real
>>> with them self!
>>>
>>> Orally opiates are not too bad (although some people can't do that
>>> either), but the needle can get crazy quick!! I know their are a
>>> small
>>> sub group of people who may be able to keep it under wraps for a
>>> while, but I don't it's possible to do long term, I think sooner or
>>> later the needle gets yours ass and completely takes over!
>>>
>>> And I don't care what your doing it for,physical pain, emotionally
>>> pain, on the weekends, every 3rd day, ect, ect, ect, ect.  Sooner or
>>> later, your mind goes, "oh just one more time", "I can get by with it
>>> this one time", "It won't hurt if its just one more time", "I do it
>>> today, but I won't use tomorrow" "I'm in really bad pain today it
>>> will
>>> be alright"  And sooner or later you are shooting more and more, and
>>> it does not do what it use to! And then, your shooting up to 3-4 time
>>> per day, and that's not working anymore! Yea, I know just how it goes
>>> on that. And then your it go to where your just sick all the freak en
>>> time, more so then high.
>>>
>>> I started shooting my pain meds because, for one, I had lost all my
>>> self esteem because of a horrible illness that left me in un
>>> controllable pain! My 3 girl friends(over the course of 10 years),
>>> all
>>> three of them who been close to dumped me over my illness about the
>>> same way!!  Amy one of my old g/f at least tried to be some what nice
>>> about it, I will always have the up most respect for her about that.
>>> But, anyways, I had gotten sick of dealing with everything, and just
>>> did not care anymore and wanted to die! I thought this would be a
>>> good
>>> way to end my life!! Yea, it you don't have a tolerance that's out
>>> the
>>> freak en door!! Well needless to say, things got out of control for a
>>> while, about 5 years+ while!
>>>
>>> I don't do that shit anymore with my pain meds though!  The morel of
>>> the story is, no matter how bad thing are, you have to learn how to
>>> deal with the shit, or else you just going to make that shit worse on
>>> your self!!
>>> I felt because I had that illness that was fucked and that I could do
>>> what ever the fuck I wanted with my medication!  I never counted on
>>> things getting out of control with them!!  I was in cancer type pain
>>> with the disease I have, and I thought, well they give it to cancer
>>> patents that are in that kind of pain, why not me?? So I took things
>>> into my own hands!! I don't really regret being on pain meds, i just
>>> wish i been a little bit stronger mentally, but it was really hard
>>> being so young and to be in that much pain!!
>>>
>>> I still have the disease and I still have pain, but I just deal with
>>> it better(barely).  I really don't want to shoot nothing anymore! I
>>> don't really look at any of that shit the same way I did back then.
>>>
>>> It's just goes to show everybody on this board, that if you have
>>> gotten off the hook with the opiates you can go back to taking the
>>> stuff right again! It's just might take a while to get your mind
>>> right!! The medical people don't believe this, they think once your
>>> this "addict" your always this "little fucked up addict"  "for
>>> life"!!
>>> I don't know if I believe that????  I think it all has to do with
>>> what
>>> has happened in that persons life!!
>>>
>>>
>>> I can't stand how medical thinks everybody's is a freak en text
>>> book!!!
>>>
>>> I don't believe people are math problems!!! People are so much more
>>> than that!!! I get real tired of hearing people calling them selfs
>>> "junky"!! and "addicts"!, like they never can get over it!! THAT'S
>>> BULL SHIT!! I am living proof of that!!!
>>> People who do that, just give the medical a reason to call them that
>>> and label them!! I've done it to! I just like to see people try not
>>> to
>>> do it so much! It's just like a dirty label, and I think it does more
>>> harm then good!
>>> I feel addiction is a problem, that all it is, just like if you get
>>> sick and go to the doctor and get help for a health problem or just a
>>> have any other problem in your life, it's solvable!! You don't have
>>> to
>>> be a label the rest of your life because you had a problem in the
>>> past
>>> that is now fixed!  That's all i am saying!
>>> And yes, I know some people stay addicted their whole life, that's
>>> because they have not dealt with the problem! If really have dealt
>>> with it they might be not be doing that type of shit?
>>>
>>> The reason I am still on pain meds is because of my pain, other wise
>>> I  be off it. and I still hope to make it off it one day?? Maybe,
>>> maybe not??  My IC is pretty bad, i just don't know about that one?
>>> I mean, have every reason in the world to want go try and find
>>> something to shoot up!! But I don't!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyways
>>> Just my 2 cent worth!!
>>> JS
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 21, 2008, at 6:23 AM, ibogaine-request at mindvox.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Send Ibogaine mailing list submissions to
>>>> ibogaine at mindvox.com
>>>>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>> http://www.mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>> ibogaine-request at mindvox.com
>>>>
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>> ibogaine-owner at mindvox.com
>>>>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of Ibogaine digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>>  1. Re: Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment (Kevin Walker)
>>>>  2. Re: Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment (simon loxton)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:51:49 +0200
>>>> From: "Kevin Walker" <kevin at ibogaineafricanrenaissance.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>>> Message-ID: <000801c8eb0f$06c43d60$0200a8c0 at KevinLaptop>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>> reply-type=original
>>>>
>>>> Hi Sophia,
>>>>
>>>> I believe a message from the heart!
>>>>
>>>> As you rightfully said many people experience similar things in
>>>> different
>>>> ways, some get caught up in things far quicker than others, and fall
>>>> to the
>>>> power of the drugs. I have yet to meet a person that purposely gone
>>>> out and
>>>> decided to become an addict out of choice. Different people fall
>>>> victim to
>>>> being an addict, having used or being associated to drugs for
>>>> different
>>>> periods in their lives, a person will never know at what point they
>>>> will
>>>> enter into a fixed lifestyle on being dependant on drugs and
>>>> therefore
>>>> become an addict. As you also mentioned an addict also needs to
>>>> identify
>>>> that he/she has a problem, and deal with it in whatever way they
>>>> deem fit at
>>>> that point in their lives, having to make the decision is the
>>>> hardest part,
>>>> an addict is scared as to what type of lifestyle plays out later.
>>>> Always
>>>> strange as they were never scared to partake in the initial use of
>>>> drugs,
>>>> but somehow are anxious and scared to revert back to a clean
>>>> lifestyle.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Kevin
>>>>
>>>> _____________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> NHP / Dr Kevin Walker (Reg No: 6206429)
>>>>
>>>> Disclaimer and Confidentiality Note:
>>>> This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to
>>>> which
>>>> it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged,
>>>> confidential and exempt from exposure under applicable law.   If the
>>>> reader
>>>> of this message is not the sole authorised recipient you are hereby
>>>> notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of the
>>>> communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this in
>>>> error
>>>> please destroy immediately. Whilst suitable precautions against
>>>> virus
>>>> transmittal are taken by IBOGAINE AFRICAN RENAISSANCE (Pty)  Ltd
>>>> (and
>>>> associated companies) we
>>>> cannot accept any responsibility for viruses or their consequences.
>>>> 12 Floria St
>>>> Edleen
>>>> Kempton Park
>>>> 1619
>>>> Tel:+27 11 976-4314
>>>> Cell:+27 82 557 8480
>>>> www.ibogaineafricanrenaissance.com
>>>> e-mail: kevin at ibogaineafricanrenaissance.com
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Sophia Depas" <mssmdepas at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:43 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I have got a great deal out of reading this conversation(is it
>>>>> called
>>>>> that online?) not in relation to scoring (I couldn't resist
>>>>> sorry)lol.
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably my most consistent  excuse for avoiding detox has been
>>>>> related to my very strong beliefd system in regard to addiction in
>>>>> its
>>>>> many guises. Most spexcifically that I consider an addiction to
>>>>> be a
>>>>> symptom of a problem and not the problem itself. However, I do
>>>>> believe
>>>>> that to a certain extent one will find the party person who went
>>>>> too
>>>>> far and got stuck...But then there's a reaason for the party
>>>>> initially
>>>>> isn't thetrer?
>>>>> I know that I have used in the self-destructive manner that I have,
>>>>> in
>>>>> order to survive and function adequately as a parent. I was not
>>>>> parented and as my kids grew I believe my fear grew. I knew more
>>>>> than
>>>>> the average punter about smack cuz of studying psychology. I knew
>>>>> it
>>>>> was not initself harmful. I initially used morphine as a
>>>>> painkiller,
>>>>> and added h when it wasn't strong enough (I have endometriosis). I
>>>>> subsequently used for seven years without getting physically
>>>>> addicted.
>>>>> And in this tikme discovered that it enabled me to fulfill my
>>>>> motherly
>>>>> duties with gusto! I started to plan the worst housework around h
>>>>> days. I never used more than 2 days, and always had a minimum gap
>>>>> of 3
>>>>> days.  Eventually it all changed and I went downhill to my personal
>>>>> pit of frustartion and inadequacy This was precipitated by a trip
>>>>> on
>>>>> 2cb which was one of the best and extreme mind expanding experience
>>>>> out. And it began my dodgy journey. I'm not sure I could get
>>>>> through
>>>>> to physical independence without ibo.
>>>>> I want to finally face feeling. I wish to demonstrate this to my
>>>>> kids
>>>>> although it's a little late! They are 15 and 18. And although I am
>>>>> aware of the long post ibo road to recovery, I believe that the
>>>>> initial ndecision is the most crucial factor.
>>>>> I hope this isn't too off topic, or at all so...
>>>>> love and happiness
>>>>>
>>>>> soph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/20/08, Matt Shriver <ibogamail at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Matt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with what you say here.  What I think is not so good for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> ibogaine movement is when someone gives one of these glowing
>>>>>> accounts and
>>>>>> people who have never been introduced to ibogaine read it and say
>>>>>> "Oh wow
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> this stuff for real?  Where is this guy now?" only to find that
>>>>>> he's off
>>>>>> strung out somewhere.  This is what the family and friends of that
>>>>>> person
>>>>>> will see also.  But yes the results can be and are amazing
>>>>>> sometimes, I
>>>>>> tend
>>>>>> to think miraculous is the correct word based on the fact that
>>>>>> miracle
>>>>>> means
>>>>>> something done by God.  Whatever power it is that moves through
>>>>>> ibogaine,
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> is deep, and wide, and primordial, and most of all powerful enough
>>>>>> to be
>>>>>> called by that term, or at least it seems so to me.  But stopping
>>>>>> using
>>>>>> dope
>>>>>> and staying off of dope are two different things and a full time
>>>>>> ibogaine
>>>>>> experience is not practical.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One thing that I think happens is that if an addict stays clean,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> issues
>>>>>> that contributed to their addiction will come up, when they are
>>>>>> no-
>>>>>> longer
>>>>>> being repressed or avoided with drugs they will resurface.  And
>>>>>> when they
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> they can either face them and deal with them or they can attempt
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> ignore
>>>>>> and deny them.  If they choose the later, they will in time very
>>>>>> likely
>>>>>> wind
>>>>>> up using dope again.  Ibogaine could be used to treat the cravings
>>>>>> probably
>>>>>> for a very long time, but I think more than cravings are
>>>>>> involved.  How
>>>>>> often do addicts use dope for other reasons: its available,
>>>>>> they're
>>>>>> bored,
>>>>>> they're having a feeling they don't want, whatever...  Cravings
>>>>>> are only
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> part of the reason for using dope.  But I also think that ibogaine
>>>>>> itself
>>>>>> helps treat those underlying issues to some extent by bringing
>>>>>> them to
>>>>>> consciousness in a non-traumatizing way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So boosters used to treat cravings could very well help to treat
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> underlying source of the addiction also.  But this also presumes a
>>>>>> source
>>>>>> that can be "treated", some people would say that addiction is a
>>>>>> condition
>>>>>> that cannot be cured.  From my own experience I would say both
>>>>>> positions
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> true.  It appears that the deeper I dig into the underlying
>>>>>> issues, the
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> issues are revealed underneath.  But the process of continually
>>>>>> digging
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> revealing does in a way seem to affect something resembling a
>>>>>> cure.  I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> not had a craving to use heroin or crack or any of the other
>>>>>> various
>>>>>> drugs I
>>>>>> abused in years.  I do however sometimes crave a change of
>>>>>> feeling, I
>>>>>> sometimes wish I could escape frustration or irritation and do so
>>>>>> quickly.
>>>>>> But even so drugs never sound like a good idea to me, they just
>>>>>> don't, I
>>>>>> can't even begin to convince myself that the results won't be the
>>>>>> same as
>>>>>> they always used to be which was just horrendous.  So my sense is
>>>>>> that if
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> stopped doing the things I do to "treat" my addiction, if I
>>>>>> stopped
>>>>>> working
>>>>>> on myself, that could change and drugs might start to sound like a
>>>>>> god
>>>>>> idea
>>>>>> again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My opinions anonymous is that the real cure or treatment for
>>>>>> addiction
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> to develop a lifestyle that includes a process for continual
>>>>>> self-examination and personal responsibility.   The details are
>>>>>> not that
>>>>>> important just that there is a process and it is fully
>>>>>> incorporated into
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> lifestyle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matthew Zielinski wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think its only natural that people who had a positive,
>>>>>> enlightening
>>>>>> first
>>>>>> ibogaine experience praise it as a life saving gift.   Sudenly
>>>>>> they are
>>>>>> overwhelmed with happines and joy without resorting to using
>>>>>> anything to
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> there so that is a big deal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is just a fact.  And it is an amazing fact!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If and when they relapse they do it on their own accord. They
>>>>>> have a
>>>>>> choice
>>>>>> to use or not to use.  That doesnt diminish the fact that ibogaine
>>>>>> helped
>>>>>> them tremendously in those first weeks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the whole ibogaine program should be revised a bit.  I
>>>>>> think more
>>>>>> emphasis should be placed on boosters and not solely on the first
>>>>>> flood
>>>>>> dose.  Only looking at my self here but without the booster doses
>>>>>> I think
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> might have slipped again.  Now with  regualar boosters(even though
>>>>>> I only
>>>>>> had 2) I have better control over my behaviour and the way I react
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> trigers/cravings/situations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ibogaine is an amazing tool to detox with since it elimenates most
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> wd's  but as far as abstianance rate its not that affective.
>>>>>> Booster
>>>>>> doses
>>>>>> should be implemented as a part of the ibogaine program.  Regular
>>>>>> boosters
>>>>>> should be advocated as the means to help acheaive that sobriety.
>>>>>> Since
>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>> only speaking from personal experience and only a short time of
>>>>>> sobriety
>>>>>> its
>>>>>> hard to establish if thats true but speaking with few people from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> list
>>>>>> it does seem to be the case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happy Sunday!
>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/20/08, DC in AZ <dcollier9 at cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> depends on what label you apply to yourself by your actions, a
>>>>>>> "party
>>>>>> person" having a good time after work is done, and keeping a
>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>> life situation
>>>>>>> where you pay your bills, and you care about others is one
>>>>>>> case...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> or one can label themself an "addict" where your fun is now
>>>>>>> causing you
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> not be responsible, and you dont care about anyone, even yourself,
>>>>>>> and so on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the drug being used properly or abused - is only a small part of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> personality defects, or virtues being addressed (or ignored).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but just so fun-loving people know that they may use drugs
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>> "an addiction" problem person with deep issues. that is not
>>>>>> addressed by
>>>>>> NA,
>>>>>>> or so I have heard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> imo.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Donzo
>>>>>>> "Love converts hearts, and gives peace."
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Matt Shriver
>>>>>>> To: The Ibogaine List
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:26 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I had similar reactions to Douglas.  I had thought about
>>>>>>> responding
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> this before but never got around to it.  I think the author over-
>>>>>> stresses
>>>>>> the "miracle cure" angle to ibogaine which I don't think is
>>>>>> entirely
>>>>>> helpful.  I will be the first to admit that there is more than
>>>>>> just a
>>>>>> grain
>>>>>> of truth to that perspective but it is not the whole story.  From
>>>>>> what I
>>>>>> have seen on this list and in myself, those who get the amazing,
>>>>>> ecstatic,
>>>>>> miraculously delivered from the throes of addiction experience,
>>>>>> those are
>>>>>> the ones most likely to write something like this, but if they do
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> follow
>>>>>> it up with any additional effort, then more often then not they
>>>>>> wind up
>>>>>> using again.  And that pattern is I think not helpful for
>>>>>> ibogaine.  The
>>>>>> grain of truth is in the fact that people actually do have these
>>>>>> experiences, I have myself.  But the whole truth is that if
>>>>>> nothing else
>>>>>> changes, then in the long run, nothing at all changes and they
>>>>>> wind up
>>>>>> right
>>>>>> back where they started.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> NA is one way that many people find freedom from drug addiction
>>>>>>> but it
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>> not the only way. I think that people who are overly judgmental of
>>>>>> it are
>>>>>> really dealing with their own internal issues that they are
>>>>>> projecting
>>>>>> onto
>>>>>> NA.  I will be the last to claim that NA is without it's
>>>>>> problems.  But
>>>>>> it's
>>>>>> more or less like say for instance the Church of Jesus Christ of
>>>>>> Latter
>>>>>> Day
>>>>>> Saints, the Mormons.  How many people go around with a resentment
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> the Mormons, probably not a lot.  But just as with NA the tendency
>>>>>> is to
>>>>>> view the whole organization based on the interactions you have
>>>>>> with any
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> it's members.  And these people will ring your doorbell and
>>>>>> interrupt
>>>>>> whatever it is you are doing to try and sell you literature
>>>>>> about a
>>>>>> religion
>>>>>> you are probably not even interested in.  Some of them are pushy.
>>>>>> Some
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> them are totally cool.  In my experience they are all very polite
>>>>>> (other
>>>>>> than sometimes being overly persistent or just generally
>>>>>> bothersome like
>>>>>> when different ones come by 3 days apart, c'mon I already told the
>>>>>> last
>>>>>> guys
>>>>>> I wasn't interested).  But my point is that if you go away from
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> interactions with a resentment about the the Mormons in general
>>>>>> than that
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> really about you, not the Mormons.  And it seems like there are a
>>>>>> lot of
>>>>>> addicts running around with 12-step resentment.  If it's not for
>>>>>> you then
>>>>>> cool, don't go.  But if you go around dissing on it you may well
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> denying
>>>>>> someone else access to the very method that would work best for
>>>>>> them to
>>>>>> gain
>>>>>> freedom from drug addiction.  Hundreds of thousands have found
>>>>>> help in NA
>>>>>> and if you include AA then you can change that number to millions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But just to get back to Douglas' point, addiction doesn't happen
>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>> vacuum.  There are associated behaviors, thought patterns, habits,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> tendencies that all support continuing in that lifestyle.  These
>>>>>> things
>>>>>> must
>>>>>> be dealt with and these things are usually already present prior
>>>>>> to drug
>>>>>> addiction so simply returning to the pre-drug taking life is not
>>>>>> exactly
>>>>>> realistic.  If all you remove is the physical and psychological
>>>>>> addiction
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> a specific substance you have essentially only treated the
>>>>>> manifestations
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the issue, not the actual issue itself.  However you want to talk
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> addiction and in whatever terms, most people would agree that it
>>>>>> is more
>>>>>> than simply the repeated use of a substance.  That is the most
>>>>>> obvious
>>>>>> outward manifestation but many personality traits and behaviors
>>>>>> seemingly
>>>>>> unrelated to the drug use are also shared among addicts to say
>>>>>> nothing of
>>>>>> people who manifest addictive behaviors around activities like
>>>>>> gambling
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> have nothing at all to do with consuming mind altering substances.
>>>>>> Whatever
>>>>>> it is that leads people into a situation where they become
>>>>>> dependent on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> repeated use of a drug, simply removing the drug from the over-all
>>>>>> picture
>>>>>> does not actually impact on that thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Douglas Fraser wrote:
>>>>>>> hrm.... I had a khat plant while I was living in Vancouver. Never
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> used it b/c it was of the weak variety, but it's a nice plant....
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> course, I was not refining the chemical to excess a la coca and
>>>>>> cocaine....
>>>>>>> but speed freaks are .. freaks and that sort of applies to our
>>>>>>> overcaffeinated Western culture. And of course, it's always
>>>>>>> easier to
>>>>>>> blame the chemicals than one's life and how one's living it and
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> acknowledging one's problems
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be honest, what bugs me about this story is that the author
>>>>>>> does not
>>>>>>> ever seem to acknowledge the chemicals were just tools for him to
>>>>>>> escape
>>>>>>> his issues - it's like he never had any issues and then one day,
>>>>>>> poof!
>>>>>>> he's an addict. maybe it's just my projections... and the way he
>>>>>>> writes.
>>>>>>> Then he imparts such power to ibogaine.. or seems to. This is a
>>>>>>> subtle
>>>>>>> point, but it's a crucial one. Ibogaine can be considered to have
>>>>>>> something of a "cult" surrounding it, much like ayahuasca does,
>>>>>>> and if
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> (society) can deal with those projections in an honest manner,
>>>>>>> then we
>>>>>>> won't be faced with the trouble that acid and MDMA had to deal
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> (the
>>>>>>> hysteria, the bans, etc). then again, I'm an idealist....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> doug
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kevin Walker wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To The List.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A patient forward this attachment and asked me please to publish
>>>>>>> it on
>>>>>>> Mindvox for him!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>> THE EVOLUTION OF ADDICTION TREATMENT- By Bareman 12
>>>>>>> July 2008
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CHAPTER 1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Try some of this." smiled Dean, handing my wife and I a small
>>>>>>> piece of
>>>>>>> paper with some white powder in the centre.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "It's called cut or cat and is a chemical version of the
>>>>>>> plant ,cut,
>>>>>>> used to enhance energy and concentration,much like a herbal
>>>>>>> version of
>>>>>>> cocaine."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 15 minutes later we were driving to our magnificent , fully paid
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> house, with our music studio, one of the finest and most magical
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> country.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We were feeling motivated, on top of the world,energetic beyond
>>>>>>> belief
>>>>>>> and excited about the prospects of life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That powder sure had a kick to it, a kick that we would later be
>>>>>>> directed toward my manhood.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CHAPTER 2
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Half an hour after arriving home and working passionately on a
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> song,
>>>>>>> we felt the need for a little more of the magic powder.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Hey Dean, got any more cat?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Sure, I make the stuff,but it's rather expensive to produce so I
>>>>>>> sell
>>>>>>> it to my friends at 150 a gram."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I"m coming back,give me 2."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I walked upstairs to our safe where we had about 100 00 rand in
>>>>>>> cash,
>>>>>>> and took a mere 300 for Dean.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See, I figured for 300 rand we were so prolific and energetic
>>>>>>> that we
>>>>>>> could do 2 days work in one, so why not?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We had tried Ritalin before and cat was like it's big brother in
>>>>>>> so far
>>>>>>> as focus and energy was concerned.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dean told me it was based on a naturally occurring herb, so what
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> harm?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CHAPTER 3
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We finished working in the early hours of the morning, sustaining
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> energies by topping up with another line every half hour or
>>>>>>> so,and
>>>>>>> let's
>>>>>>> just say making love was explosive to say the least. Bonus.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now as for our sleep life, the birds were chirping,the sun was
>>>>>>> rising
>>>>>>> and we had no intentions of entertaining the notion of alpha/beta
>>>>>>> states
>>>>>>> as we had to get our daughter ready for school.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lucky we still had some left which we hastily finished.
>>>>>>> Fantastic, it
>>>>>>> felt like we had just had a good ten hours of slumber and were
>>>>>>> ready
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> another exciting day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CHAPTER 4
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After taking C to school, I popped into Dean's place with some
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> cash
>>>>>>> from the safe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Give me 5 grams, I don't want to run out."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That day we went to our doctor complaining of insomnia. He
>>>>>>> obliged by
>>>>>>> giving us a script for sleeping tablets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We were set.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CHAPTER 5
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Three years later:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We had invested in a house in an exclusive suburb which we were
>>>>>>> letting
>>>>>>> out on the basis that the tenants rent would pay the mortgage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Our tenants were moving out and we thought this the ideal
>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> move in and start a drug free life as the novelty had worn off
>>>>>>> and we
>>>>>>> weren't feeling great anymore.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dean had quit so we were getting from another supplier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will never forget the day 5 year old C walked into the studio
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>> "You know what,dad? Taking drugs is like taking a brand new house
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> the more drugs you take,the older and dirtier the house gets
>>>>>>> until it
>>>>>>> turns into a dirty old cottage..................that's
>>>>>> why you and mom
>>>>>>> want to move to Dainfern."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> She was sharp,real sharp.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CHAPTER 6
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eight years after our first encounter:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here I sit, a divorced,lonely,broken,drug dependent 40 year old
>>>>>>> man.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All my accumulated wealth gone due to irrational
>>>>>>> investment,giving half
>>>>>>> of it away and my 2 designer drugs of choice,Gamma Hydroxy
>>>>>>> Buturate and
>>>>>>> Meth-cathanone (cat)consuming the rest.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No house,no studio,no friends,no family,no clients only the
>>>>>>> uncomfortable cravings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I had been to a 12 step conventional rehab a few years earlier
>>>>>>> and had
>>>>>>> lasted 5 days.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then my ex told me about Ibogaine, a naturally occurring
>>>>>>> hallucinogenic
>>>>>>> plant derivative used by the Ubuntu tribe during
>>>>>>> ceremonials,which was
>>>>>>> accidently found to stop cravings for heroin and other substances
>>>>>>> without withdrawals.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See, a conventional 6 week rehab program teaches you how to deal
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> the cravings, whereas Ibogaine nullifies the cravings without the
>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>> feared withdrawals.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't get me wrong,Ibogaine is a tough route to take and the
>>>>>>> first 4
>>>>>>> days were filled with hallucinations and ataxia (partial loss of
>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>> of the limbs.), but worth every second.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is part of an email I sent my friend pertaining to one
>>>>>>> hallucination I experienced:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The process was uncomfortable and time passed slowly as the plant
>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>> its way through my brain "reformatting" my hard drive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is a hallucinogenic and makes you very aware on an
>>>>>>> introspective as
>>>>>>> well as a spiritual level.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Day one and I started hearing ancient chanting which grew
>>>>>>> louder at
>>>>>>> night,especially before sleep where my adventures would begin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I heard a digeridoo type buzzing sound surrounding me and,as I
>>>>>>> dozed
>>>>>>> off,was awoken by the buzzing of motorbikes and found myself in a
>>>>>>> skanky
>>>>>>> hotel/nightclub surrounded by a massive amount of helmets
>>>>>>> belonging to
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> deadly gang.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They performed a ritual type ceremony in which they selected the
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> teenage leader based on size and strength,and then out of the
>>>>>>> back of
>>>>>>> the club in walks..........C, my 11 year old daughter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> She partakes in the ceremony and afterwards disappears.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I turn around and to my horror and disbelief,there she
>>>>>>> is........performing fellatio on the new leader.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The leader walks up to me afterwards to shake my hand on raising
>>>>>>> such a
>>>>>>> skilled daughter and feelings of rage,hoplessness and fear of
>>>>>>> being the
>>>>>>> lowest of the low overwhelm me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I tell C in a calm,amicable way that her beauty and femina are
>>>>>>> the most
>>>>>>> powerful weapons she has in a man's world which she should never
>>>>>>> give
>>>>>> away.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I didn't" she replied,pulling out R200 from her pocket.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suddenly,I am awake,crying and shivering with the sickest
>>>>>>> sensation
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> described as a dad's worst nightmare.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Give up the narcotics or face the consequences" was the
>>>>>>> clearest,most
>>>>>>> frightening message of the Ibogaine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These type of hallucinations were experienced every night for the
>>>>>>> fist
>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>> nights which I can recall in detail, and then a euphoria was
>>>>>>> experienced.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That was 3 weeks ago and I have absolutely no inclination to even
>>>>>>> entertain the thoughts of GHB or white powder.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am finally at peace and motivated beyond reason to become a
>>>>>>> success
>>>>>>> story,not a statistic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Strange thing is I am attracting such positive energy now and
>>>>>>> feel more
>>>>>>> confident and creative, whilst being more focussed and grounded
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> ever before.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CHAPTER 7
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In conclusion,Ibogaine definitely seems like the standard for
>>>>>>> treating
>>>>>>> addiction over and above a very dated 12 step regime.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We are constantly evolving, and with evolution comes change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why go through a 6 week minimum rehabilitation program and still
>>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>> the fear and uncertainty of a relapse when the
>>>>>>> alternative,Ibogaine,
>>>>>>> offers a solution to constant cravings in a week with very little
>>>>>>> chance
>>>>>>> of relapse as the body is brought to a state of homeostasis
>>>>>>> relatively
>>>>>>> quickly, avoiding nasty withdrawal symptoms?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is definitely a treatment for the individual who is sick and
>>>>>>> tired
>>>>>>> of feeling sick and tired and really wants to return to sobriety
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> having to be taught how to deal with his/her addictive tendencies
>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>> condescending and uncomfortable manner of what I consider to be a
>>>>>>> sorely
>>>>>>> outdated 12 step program.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Within 2-3 weeks of the Ibogaine treatment,my energy levels,
>>>>>>> motivation,
>>>>>>> creativity and general well being had returned to a state of
>>>>>>> normality
>>>>>>> and my world had changed from grey to a colourful appreciation
>>>>>>> with no
>>>>>>> desire to return to the dark, uncomfortable place I had been in
>>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>> few weeks earlier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Beat that 12 step.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>>>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::
>>>>>> [%][)
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::
>>>>>> [%][)
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:22:47 +0000 (GMT)
>>>> From: simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>>> Message-ID: <465804.4056.qm at web28615.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> Hey Matt;
>>>>
>>>> Thats a very important point you have made.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I struggle getting long term feedback from patients.
>>>> There is a lot of information before; during and just after the
>>>> experience but not nearly as much six months to a year later. I try
>>>> to stress the importance of just keeping in contact so that when
>>>> whatever the usual triggers start presenting themselves they can be
>>>> dealt with; easily if caught in time.
>>>>
>>>> The other problem I have experienced with people who dont stay in
>>>> touch and continue with some form of after care; is that they only
>>>> respond when things are too late or there has already been a lapse.
>>>> In these situations if they continue to go it alone its common to
>>>> think the ibogaine has not worked (But thats a whole topic on its
>>>> own)
>>>>
>>>> So I would stress the importance of keeping in touch. Obviously it
>>>> would be easier to have a six month program or some thing like that
>>>> but thats not everyones cup of tea or even do'able in most cases.
>>>>
>>>> Keep well Matt.
>>>>
>>>> Si'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>> From: Matthew Zielinski <masterhermesbathory at gmail.com>
>>>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 12:17:23 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think its only natural that people who had a positive,
>>>> enlightening first ibogaine experience praise it as a life saving
>>>> gift.   Sudenly they are overwhelmed with happines and joy without
>>>> resorting to using anything to get there so that is a big deal.
>>>>
>>>> That is just a fact.  And it is an amazing fact!
>>>>
>>>> If and when they relapse they do it on their own accord. They have a
>>>> choice to use or not to use.  That doesnt diminish the fact that
>>>> ibogaine helped them tremendously in those first weeks.
>>>>
>>>> I think the whole ibogaine program should be revised a bit.  I think
>>>> more emphasis should be placed on boosters and not solely on the
>>>> first flood dose.  Only looking at my self here but without the
>>>> booster doses I think I might have slipped again.  Now with
>>>> regualar boosters(even though I only had 2) I have better control
>>>> over my behaviour and the way I react to trigers/cravings/
>>>> situations.
>>>>
>>>> Ibogaine is an amazing tool to detox with since it elimenates most
>>>> of the wd's  but as far as abstianance rate its not that affective.
>>>> Booster doses should be implemented as a part of the ibogaine
>>>> program.  Regular boosters should be advocated as the means to help
>>>> acheaive that sobriety.  Since I'm only speaking from personal
>>>> experience and only a short time of sobriety its hard to establish
>>>> if thats true but speaking with few people from the list it does
>>>> seem to be the case.
>>>>
>>>> Happy Sunday!
>>>> Matt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/20/08, DC in AZ <dcollier9 at cox.net> wrote:
>>>> depends on what label you apply to yourself by your actions, a
>>>> "party person" having a good time after work is done, and keeping a
>>>> responsible life situation
>>>> where you pay your bills, and you care about others is one case...
>>>>
>>>> or one can label themself an "addict" where your fun is now causing
>>>> you to not be responsible, and you dont care about anyone, even
>>>> yourself,
>>>> and so on.
>>>>
>>>> the drug being used properly or abused - is only a small part of the
>>>> personality defects, or virtues being addressed (or ignored).
>>>>
>>>> but just so fun-loving people know that they may use drugs without
>>>> being "an addiction" problem person with deep issues. that is not
>>>> addressed by NA,
>>>> or so I have heard.
>>>>
>>>> imo.
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Donzo
>>>> "Love converts hearts, and gives peace."
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Matt Shriver
>>>> To: The Ibogaine List
>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:26 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>>
>>>> I had similar reactions to Douglas.  I had thought about responding
>>>> to this before but never got around to it.  I think the author over-
>>>> stresses the "miracle cure" angle to ibogaine which I don't think is
>>>> entirely helpful.  I will be the first to admit that there is more
>>>> than just a grain of truth to that perspective but it is not the
>>>> whole story.  From what I have seen on this list and in myself,
>>>> those who get the amazing, ecstatic, miraculously delivered from the
>>>> throes of addiction experience, those are the ones most likely to
>>>> write something like this, but if they do not follow it up with any
>>>> additional effort, then more often then not they wind up using
>>>> again.  And that pattern is I think not helpful for ibogaine.  The
>>>> grain of truth is in the fact that people actually do have these
>>>> experiences, I have myself.  But the whole truth is that if nothing
>>>> else changes, then in the long run, nothing at all changes and they
>>>> wind up right back where they
>>>> started.
>>>>
>>>> NA is one way that many people find freedom from drug addiction but
>>>> it is not the only way. I think that people who are overly
>>>> judgmental of it are really dealing with their own internal issues
>>>> that they are projecting onto NA.  I will be the last to claim that
>>>> NA is without it's problems.  But it's more or less like say for
>>>> instance the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the
>>>> Mormons.  How many people go around with a resentment against the
>>>> Mormons, probably not a lot.  But just as with NA the tendency is to
>>>> view the whole organization based on the interactions you have with
>>>> any of it's members.  And these people will ring your doorbell and
>>>> interrupt whatever it is you are doing to try and sell you
>>>> literature about a religion you are probably not even interested
>>>> in.  Some of them are pushy.  Some of them are totally cool.  In my
>>>> experience they are all very polite (other than sometimes being
>>>> overly persistent or just generally bothersome like
>>>> when different ones come by 3 days apart, c'mon I already told the
>>>> last guys I wasn't interested).  But my point is that if you go away
>>>> from these interactions with a resentment about the the Mormons in
>>>> general than that is really about you, not the Mormons.  And it
>>>> seems like there are a lot of addicts running around with 12-step
>>>> resentment.  If it's not for you then cool, don't go.  But if you go
>>>> around dissing on it you may well be denying someone else access to
>>>> the very method that would work best for them to gain freedom from
>>>> drug addiction.  Hundreds of thousands have found help in NA and if
>>>> you include AA then you can change that number to millions.
>>>>
>>>> But just to get back to Douglas' point, addiction doesn't happen in
>>>> a vacuum.  There are associated behaviors, thought patterns, habits,
>>>> and tendencies that all support continuing in that lifestyle.  These
>>>> things must be dealt with and these things are usually already
>>>> present prior to drug addiction so simply returning to the pre-drug
>>>> taking life is not exactly realistic.  If all you remove is the
>>>> physical and psychological addiction to a specific substance you
>>>> have essentially only treated the manifestations of the issue, not
>>>> the actual issue itself.  However you want to talk about addiction
>>>> and in whatever terms, most people would agree that it is more than
>>>> simply the repeated use of a substance.  That is the most obvious
>>>> outward manifestation but many personality traits and behaviors
>>>> seemingly unrelated to the drug use are also shared among addicts to
>>>> say nothing of people who manifest addictive behaviors around
>>>> activities like gambling that have
>>>> nothing at all to do with consuming mind altering substances.
>>>> Whatever it is that leads people into a situation where they become
>>>> dependent on the repeated use of a drug, simply removing the drug
>>>> from the over-all picture does not actually impact on that thing.
>>>>
>>>> Matt
>>>>
>>>> Douglas Fraser wrote:
>>>> hrm....  I had a khat plant while I was living in Vancouver.  Never
>>>> really
>>>> used it b/c it was of the weak variety, but it's a nice plant....
>>>> and of
>>>> course, I was not refining the chemical to excess a la coca and
>>>> cocaine....
>>>>  but speed freaks are .. freaks and that sort of applies to our
>>>> overcaffeinated Western culture.   And of course, it's always easier
>>>> to
>>>> blame the chemicals than one's life and how one's living it and not
>>>> acknowledging one's problems
>>>>
>>>> To be honest, what bugs me about this story is that the author does
>>>> not
>>>> ever seem to acknowledge the chemicals were just tools for him to
>>>> escape
>>>> his issues - it's like he never had any issues and then one day,
>>>> poof!
>>>> he's an addict.   maybe it's just my projections... and the way he
>>>> writes.
>>>>   Then he imparts such power to ibogaine.. or seems to.  This is a
>>>> subtle
>>>> point, but it's a crucial one.  Ibogaine can be considered to have
>>>> something of a "cult" surrounding it, much like ayahuasca does, and
>>>> if we
>>>> (society) can deal with those projections in an honest manner,
>>>> then we
>>>> won't be faced with the trouble that acid and MDMA had to deal with
>>>> (the
>>>> hysteria, the bans, etc).     then again, I'm an idealist....
>>>>
>>>> doug
>>>>
>>>> Kevin Walker wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To The List.
>>>>
>>>> A patient forward this attachment and asked me please to publish
>>>> it on
>>>> Mindvox for him!
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Kevin
>>>> THE EVOLUTION OF ADDICTION TREATMENT- By Bareman
>>>> 12
>>>> July 2008
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 1
>>>>
>>>> "Try some of this." smiled Dean, handing my wife and I a small piece
>>>> of
>>>> paper with some white powder in the centre.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "It's called cut or cat and is a chemical version of the plant ,cut,
>>>> used to enhance energy and concentration,much like a herbal
>>>> version of
>>>> cocaine."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 15 minutes later we were driving to our magnificent , fully paid for
>>>> house, with our music studio, one of the finest and most magical in
>>>> the
>>>> country.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We were feeling motivated, on top of the world,energetic beyond
>>>> belief
>>>> and excited about the prospects of life.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That powder sure had a kick to it, a kick that we would later  be
>>>> directed toward my manhood.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Half an hour after arriving home and working passionately on a new
>>>> song,
>>>> we felt the need for a little more of the magic powder.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Hey Dean, got any more cat?"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Sure, I make the stuff,but it's rather expensive to produce so I
>>>> sell
>>>> it to my friends at 150 a gram."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "I"m coming back,give me 2."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I walked upstairs to our safe where we had about 100 00 rand in
>>>> cash,
>>>> and took a mere 300 for Dean.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> See, I figured for 300 rand we were so prolific and energetic that
>>>> we
>>>> could do 2 days work in one, so why not?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We had tried Ritalin before and cat was like it's big brother in so
>>>> far
>>>> as focus and energy was concerned.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dean told me it was based on a naturally occurring herb, so what was
>>>> the
>>>> harm?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 3
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We finished working in the early hours of the morning, sustaining
>>>> our
>>>> energies by topping up with another line every half hour or so,and
>>>> let's
>>>> just say making love was explosive to say the least. Bonus.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now as for our sleep life, the birds were chirping,the sun was
>>>> rising
>>>> and we had no intentions of entertaining the notion of alpha/beta
>>>> states
>>>> as we had to get our daughter ready for school.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lucky we still had some left which we hastily finished. Fantastic,
>>>> it
>>>> felt like we had just had a good ten hours of slumber and were ready
>>>> for
>>>> another exciting day.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 4
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> After taking C to school, I popped into Dean's place with some more
>>>> cash
>>>> from the safe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Give me 5 grams, I don't want to run out."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That day we went to our doctor complaining of insomnia. He obliged
>>>> by
>>>> giving us a script for sleeping tablets.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We were set.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 5
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Three years later:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We had invested in a house in an exclusive suburb which we were
>>>> letting
>>>> out on the basis that the tenants rent would pay the mortgage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Our tenants were moving out and we thought this the ideal
>>>> opportunity to
>>>> move in and start a drug free life as the novelty had worn off and
>>>> we
>>>> weren't feeling great anymore.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dean had quit so we were getting from another supplier.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I will never forget the day 5 year old C walked into the studio and
>>>> said
>>>> "You know what,dad? Taking drugs is like taking a brand new house
>>>> and
>>>> the more drugs you take,the older and dirtier the house gets until
>>>> it
>>>> turns into a dirty old cottage..................that's why you and
>>>> mom
>>>> want to move to Dainfern."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> She was sharp,real sharp.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 6
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eight years after our first encounter:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here I sit, a divorced,lonely,broken,drug dependent 40 year old man.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All my accumulated wealth gone due to irrational investment,giving
>>>> half
>>>> of it away and my 2 designer drugs of choice,Gamma Hydroxy Buturate
>>>> and
>>>> Meth-cathanone (cat)consuming the rest.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No house,no studio,no friends,no family,no clients only the
>>>> uncomfortable cravings.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had been to a 12 step conventional rehab a few years earlier and
>>>> had
>>>> lasted 5 days.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then my ex told me about Ibogaine, a naturally occurring
>>>> hallucinogenic
>>>> plant derivative used by the Ubuntu tribe during ceremonials,which
>>>> was
>>>> accidently found to stop cravings for heroin and other substances
>>>> without withdrawals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> See, a conventional 6 week rehab program teaches you how to deal
>>>> with
>>>> the cravings, whereas Ibogaine nullifies the cravings without the
>>>> much
>>>> feared withdrawals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don't get me wrong,Ibogaine is a tough route to take and the first 4
>>>> days were filled with hallucinations and ataxia (partial loss of
>>>> control
>>>> of the limbs.), but worth every second.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is part of an email I sent my friend pertaining to one
>>>> hallucination I experienced:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The process was uncomfortable and time passed slowly as the plant
>>>> worked
>>>> its way through my brain "reformatting" my hard drive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is a hallucinogenic and makes you very aware on an
>>>> introspective as
>>>> well as a spiritual level.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Day one and I started hearing ancient chanting which grew louder at
>>>> night,especially before sleep where my adventures would begin.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I heard a digeridoo type buzzing sound surrounding me and,as I dozed
>>>> off,was awoken by the buzzing of motorbikes and found myself in a
>>>> skanky
>>>> hotel/nightclub surrounded by a massive amount of helmets belonging
>>>> to a
>>>> deadly  gang.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> They performed a ritual type ceremony in which they selected the new
>>>> teenage leader based on size and strength,and then out of the back
>>>> of
>>>> the club in walks..........C, my 11 year old daughter.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> She partakes in the ceremony and afterwards disappears.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I turn around and to my horror and disbelief,there she
>>>> is........performing fellatio on the new leader.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The leader walks up to me afterwards to shake my hand on raising
>>>> such a
>>>> skilled daughter and feelings of rage,hoplessness and fear of being
>>>> the
>>>> lowest of the low overwhelm me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I tell C  in a calm,amicable way that her beauty and femina are the
>>>> most
>>>> powerful weapons she has in a man's world which she should never
>>>> give away.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "I didn't" she replied,pulling out R200 from her pocket.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Suddenly,I am awake,crying and shivering with the sickest sensation
>>>> only
>>>> described as a dad's worst nightmare.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Give up the narcotics or face the consequences" was the
>>>> clearest,most
>>>> frightening message of the Ibogaine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> These type of hallucinations were experienced every night for the
>>>> fist 4
>>>> nights which I can recall in detail, and then a euphoria was
>>>> experienced.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That was 3 weeks ago and I have absolutely no inclination to even
>>>> entertain the thoughts of GHB or white powder.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am finally at peace and motivated beyond reason to become a
>>>> success
>>>> story,not a statistic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Strange thing is I am attracting such positive energy now and feel
>>>> more
>>>> confident and creative, whilst being more focussed and grounded than
>>>> ever before.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CHAPTER 7
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In conclusion,Ibogaine definitely seems like the standard for
>>>> treating
>>>> addiction over and above a very dated 12 step regime.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We are constantly evolving, and with evolution comes change.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why go through a 6 week minimum rehabilitation program and still
>>>> feel
>>>> the fear and uncertainty of a relapse when the alternative,Ibogaine,
>>>> offers a solution to constant cravings in a week with very little
>>>> chance
>>>> of relapse as the body is brought to a state of homeostasis
>>>> relatively
>>>> quickly, avoiding nasty withdrawal symptoms?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is definitely a treatment for the individual who is sick  and
>>>> tired
>>>> of feeling sick and tired and really wants to return to sobriety
>>>> without
>>>> having to be taught how to deal with his/her addictive tendencies
>>>> in a
>>>> condescending and uncomfortable manner of what I consider to be a
>>>> sorely
>>>> outdated 12 step program.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Within 2-3 weeks of the Ibogaine treatment,my energy levels,
>>>> motivation,
>>>> creativity and general well being had returned to a state of
>>>> normality
>>>> and my world had changed from grey to a colourful appreciation
>>>> with no
>>>> desire to return to the dark, uncomfortable place I had been in
>>>> just a
>>>> few weeks earlier.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Beat that 12 step.
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> ________________________________
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