[Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment

Matthew Zielinski masterhermesbathory at gmail.com
Mon Jul 21 19:08:02 EDT 2008


Hi Matt

Very well put man!!!!

I agree 100%

the issues either have to be resolved or accepted.  Either way they can not
be suprsed.

Take care
Matt


On 7/20/08, Matt Shriver <ibogamail at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Matt
>
> I agree with what you say here.  What I think is not so good for the
> ibogaine movement is when someone gives one of these glowing accounts and
> people who have never been introduced to ibogaine read it and say "Oh wow is
> this stuff for real?  Where is this guy now?" only to find that he's off
> strung out somewhere.  This is what the family and friends of that person
> will see also.  But yes the results can be and are amazing sometimes, I tend
> to think miraculous is the correct word based on the fact that miracle means
> something done by God.  Whatever power it is that moves through ibogaine, it
> is deep, and wide, and primordial, and most of all powerful enough to be
> called by that term, or at least it seems so to me.  But stopping using dope
> and staying off of dope are two different things and a full time ibogaine
> experience is not practical.
>
> One thing that I think happens is that if an addict stays clean, the issues
> that contributed to their addiction will come up, when they are no-longer
> being repressed or avoided with drugs they will resurface.  And when they do
> they can either face them and deal with them or they can attempt to ignore
> and deny them.  If they choose the later, they will in time very likely wind
> up using dope again.  Ibogaine could be used to treat the cravings probably
> for a very long time, but I think more than cravings are involved.  How
> often do addicts use dope for other reasons: its available, they're bored,
> they're having a feeling they don't want, whatever...  Cravings are only a
> part of the reason for using dope.  But I also think that ibogaine itself
> helps treat those underlying issues to some extent by bringing them to
> consciousness in a non-traumatizing way.
>
> So boosters used to treat cravings could very well help to treat the
> underlying source of the addiction also.  But this also presumes a source
> that can be "treated", some people would say that addiction is a condition
> that cannot be cured.  From my own experience I would say both positions are
> true.  It appears that the deeper I dig into the underlying issues, the more
> issues are revealed underneath.  But the process of continually digging and
> revealing does in a way seem to affect something resembling a cure.  I have
> not had a craving to use heroin or crack or any of the other various drugs I
> abused in years.  I do however sometimes crave a change of feeling, I
> sometimes wish I could escape frustration or irritation and do so quickly.
> But even so drugs never sound like a good idea to me, they just don't, I
> can't even begin to convince myself that the results won't be the same as
> they always used to be which was just horrendous.  So my sense is that if I
> stopped doing the things I do to "treat" my addiction, if I stopped working
> on myself, that could change and drugs might start to sound like a god idea
> again.
>
> My opinions anonymous is that the real cure or treatment for addiction is
> to develop a lifestyle that includes a process for continual
> self-examination and personal responsibility.   The details are not that
> important just that there is a process and it is fully incorporated into the
> lifestyle.
>
> Matt.
>
> Matthew Zielinski wrote:
>
>  I think its only natural that people who had a positive, enlightening
> first ibogaine experience praise it as a life saving gift.   Sudenly they
> are overwhelmed with happines and joy without resorting to using anything
> to get there so that is a big deal.
>
> That is just a fact.  And it is an amazing fact!
>
> If and when they relapse they do it on their own accord. They have a choice
> to use or not to use.  That doesnt diminish the fact that ibogaine helped
> them tremendously in those first weeks.
>
> I think the whole ibogaine program should be revised a bit.  I think more
> emphasis should be placed on boosters and not solely on the first flood
> dose.  Only looking at my self here but without the booster doses I think I
> might have slipped again.  Now with  regualar boosters(even though I only
> had 2) I have better control over my behaviour and the way I react to
> trigers/cravings/situations.
>
> Ibogaine is an amazing tool to detox with since it elimenates most of the
> wd's  but as far as abstianance rate its not that affective.  Booster doses
> should be implemented as a part of the ibogaine program.  Regular boosters
> should be advocated as the means to help acheaive that sobriety.  Since I'm
> only speaking from personal experience and only a short time of sobriety its
> hard to establish if thats true but speaking with few people from the list
> it does seem to be the case.
>
> Happy Sunday!
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/20/08, DC in AZ <dcollier9 at cox.net> wrote:
>
>>  depends on what label you apply to yourself by your actions, a "party
>> person" having a good time after work is done, and keeping a responsible
>> life situation
>> where you pay your bills, and you care about others is one case...
>>
>> or one can label themself an "addict" where your fun is now causing you to
>> not be responsible, and you dont care about anyone, even yourself,
>> and so on.
>>
>> the drug being used properly or abused - is only a small part of the
>> personality defects, or virtues being addressed (or ignored).
>>
>> but just so fun-loving people know that they may use drugs without being
>> "an addiction" problem person with deep issues. that is not addressed by NA,
>> or so I have heard.
>>
>> imo.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Donzo
>> "Love converts hearts, and gives peace."
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Matt Shriver <ibogamail at gmail.com>
>> *To:* The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:26 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>
>>
>> I had similar reactions to Douglas.  I had thought about responding to
>> this before but never got around to it.  I think the author over-stresses
>> the "miracle cure" angle to ibogaine which I don't think is entirely
>> helpful.  I will be the first to admit that there is more than just a grain
>> of truth to that perspective but it is not the whole story.  From what I
>> have seen on this list and in myself, those who get the amazing, ecstatic,
>> miraculously delivered from the throes of addiction experience, those are
>> the ones most likely to write something like this, but if they do not follow
>> it up with any additional effort, then more often then not they wind up
>> using again.  And that pattern is I think not helpful for ibogaine.  The
>> grain of truth is in the fact that people actually do have these
>> experiences, I have myself.  But the whole truth is that if nothing else
>> changes, then in the long run, nothing at all changes and they wind up right
>> back where they started.
>>
>> NA is one way that many people find freedom from drug addiction but it is
>> not the only way. I think that people who are overly judgmental of it are
>> really dealing with their own internal issues that they are projecting onto
>> NA.  I will be the last to claim that NA is without it's problems.  But it's
>> more or less like say for instance the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day
>> Saints, the Mormons.  How many people go around with a resentment against
>> the Mormons, probably not a lot.  But just as with NA the tendency is to
>> view the whole organization based on the interactions you have with any of
>> it's members.  And these people will ring your doorbell and interrupt
>> whatever it is you are doing to try and sell you literature about a religion
>> you are probably not even interested in.  Some of them are pushy.  Some of
>> them are totally cool.  In my experience they are all very polite (other
>> than sometimes being overly persistent or just generally bothersome like
>> when different ones come by 3 days apart, c'mon I already told the last guys
>> I wasn't interested).  But my point is that if you go away from these
>> interactions with a resentment about the the Mormons in general than that is
>> really about you, not the Mormons.  And it seems like there are a lot of
>> addicts running around with 12-step resentment.  If it's not for you then
>> cool, don't go.  But if you go around dissing on it you may well be denying
>> someone else access to the very method that would work best for them to gain
>> freedom from drug addiction.  Hundreds of thousands have found help in NA
>> and if you include AA then you can change that number to millions.
>>
>> But just to get back to Douglas' point, addiction doesn't happen in a
>> vacuum.  There are associated behaviors, thought patterns, habits, and
>> tendencies that all support continuing in that lifestyle.  These things must
>> be dealt with and these things are usually already present prior to drug
>> addiction so simply returning to the pre-drug taking life is not exactly
>> realistic.  If all you remove is the physical and psychological addiction to
>> a specific substance you have essentially only treated the manifestations of
>> the issue, not the actual issue itself.  However you want to talk about
>> addiction and in whatever terms, most people would agree that it is more
>> than simply the repeated use of a substance.  That is the most obvious
>> outward manifestation but many personality traits and behaviors seemingly
>> unrelated to the drug use are also shared among addicts to say nothing of
>> people who manifest addictive behaviors around activities like gambling that
>> have nothing at all to do with consuming mind altering substances.  Whatever
>> it is that leads people into a situation where they become dependent on the
>> repeated use of a drug, simply removing the drug from the over-all picture
>> does not actually impact on that thing.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> Douglas Fraser wrote:
>>
>> hrm....  I had a khat plant while I was living in Vancouver.  Never really
>> used it b/c it was of the weak variety, but it's a nice plant....   and of
>> course, I was not refining the chemical to excess a la coca and cocaine....
>>    but speed freaks are .. freaks and that sort of applies to our
>> overcaffeinated Western culture.   And of course, it's always easier to
>> blame the chemicals than one's life and how one's living it and not
>> acknowledging one's problems
>>
>> To be honest, what bugs me about this story is that the author does not
>> ever seem to acknowledge the chemicals were just tools for him to escape
>> his issues - it's like he never had any issues and then one day, poof!
>> he's an addict.   maybe it's just my projections... and the way he writes.
>>     Then he imparts such power to ibogaine.. or seems to.  This is a subtle
>> point, but it's a crucial one.  Ibogaine can be considered to have
>> something of a "cult" surrounding it, much like ayahuasca does, and if we
>> (society) can deal with those projections in an honest manner, then we
>> won't be faced with the trouble that acid and MDMA had to deal with (the
>> hysteria, the bans, etc).     then again, I'm an idealist....
>>
>> doug
>>
>> Kevin Walker wrote:
>>
>>
>> To The List.
>>
>> A patient forward this attachment and asked me please to publish it on
>> Mindvox for him!
>>
>> Regards
>> Kevin
>> THE EVOLUTION OF ADDICTION TREATMENT- By Bareman                   12
>> July 2008
>>
>> CHAPTER 1
>>
>> "Try some of this." smiled Dean, handing my wife and I a small piece of
>> paper with some white powder in the centre.
>>
>>
>>
>> "It's called cut or cat and is a chemical version of the plant ,cut,
>> used to enhance energy and concentration,much like a herbal version of
>> cocaine."
>>
>>
>>
>> 15 minutes later we were driving to our magnificent , fully paid for
>> house, with our music studio, one of the finest and most magical in the
>> country.
>>
>>
>>
>> We were feeling motivated, on top of the world,energetic beyond belief
>> and excited about the prospects of life.
>>
>>
>>
>> That powder sure had a kick to it, a kick that we would later  be
>> directed toward my manhood.
>>
>>
>>
>> CHAPTER 2
>>
>>
>>
>> Half an hour after arriving home and working passionately on a new song,
>> we felt the need for a little more of the magic powder.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Hey Dean, got any more cat?"
>>
>>
>>
>> "Sure, I make the stuff,but it's rather expensive to produce so I sell
>> it to my friends at 150 a gram."
>>
>>
>>
>> "I"m coming back,give me 2."
>>
>>
>>
>> I walked upstairs to our safe where we had about 100 00 rand in cash,
>> and took a mere 300 for Dean.
>>
>>
>>
>> See, I figured for 300 rand we were so prolific and energetic that we
>> could do 2 days work in one, so why not?
>>
>>
>>
>> We had tried Ritalin before and cat was like it's big brother in so far
>> as focus and energy was concerned.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dean told me it was based on a naturally occurring herb, so what was the
>> harm?
>>
>>
>>
>> CHAPTER 3
>>
>>
>>
>> We finished working in the early hours of the morning, sustaining our
>> energies by topping up with another line every half hour or so,and let's
>> just say making love was explosive to say the least. Bonus.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now as for our sleep life, the birds were chirping,the sun was rising
>> and we had no intentions of entertaining the notion of alpha/beta states
>> as we had to get our daughter ready for school.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lucky we still had some left which we hastily finished. Fantastic, it
>> felt like we had just had a good ten hours of slumber and were ready for
>> another exciting day.
>>
>>
>>
>> CHAPTER 4
>>
>>
>>
>> After taking C to school, I popped into Dean's place with some more cash
>> from the safe.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Give me 5 grams, I don't want to run out."
>>
>>
>>
>> That day we went to our doctor complaining of insomnia. He obliged by
>> giving us a script for sleeping tablets.
>>
>>
>>
>> We were set.
>>
>>
>>
>> CHAPTER 5
>>
>>
>>
>> Three years later:
>>
>>
>>
>> We had invested in a house in an exclusive suburb which we were letting
>> out on the basis that the tenants rent would pay the mortgage.
>>
>>
>>
>> Our tenants were moving out and we thought this the ideal opportunity to
>> move in and start a drug free life as the novelty had worn off and we
>> weren't feeling great anymore.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dean had quit so we were getting from another supplier.
>>
>>
>>
>> I will never forget the day 5 year old C walked into the studio and said
>> "You know what,dad? Taking drugs is like taking a brand new house and
>> the more drugs you take,the older and dirtier the house gets until it
>> turns into a dirty old cottage..................that's why you and mom
>> want to move to Dainfern."
>>
>>
>>
>> She was sharp,real sharp.
>>
>>
>>
>> CHAPTER 6
>>
>>
>>
>> Eight years after our first encounter:
>>
>>
>>
>> Here I sit, a divorced,lonely,broken,drug dependent 40 year old man.
>>
>>
>>
>> All my accumulated wealth gone due to irrational investment,giving half
>> of it away and my 2 designer drugs of choice,Gamma Hydroxy Buturate and
>> Meth-cathanone (cat)consuming the rest.
>>
>>
>>
>> No house,no studio,no friends,no family,no clients only the
>> uncomfortable cravings.
>>
>>
>>
>> I had been to a 12 step conventional rehab a few years earlier and had
>> lasted 5 days.
>>
>>
>>
>> Then my ex told me about Ibogaine, a naturally occurring hallucinogenic
>> plant derivative used by the Ubuntu tribe during ceremonials,which was
>> accidently found to stop cravings for heroin and other substances
>> without withdrawals.
>>
>>
>>
>> See, a conventional 6 week rehab program teaches you how to deal with
>> the cravings, whereas Ibogaine nullifies the cravings without the much
>> feared withdrawals.
>>
>>
>>
>> Don't get me wrong,Ibogaine is a tough route to take and the first 4
>> days were filled with hallucinations and ataxia (partial loss of control
>> of the limbs.), but worth every second.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is part of an email I sent my friend pertaining to one
>> hallucination I experienced:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The process was uncomfortable and time passed slowly as the plant worked
>> its way through my brain "reformatting" my hard drive.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is a hallucinogenic and makes you very aware on an introspective as
>> well as a spiritual level.
>>
>>
>>
>> Day one and I started hearing ancient chanting which grew louder at
>> night,especially before sleep where my adventures would begin.
>>
>>
>>
>> I heard a digeridoo type buzzing sound surrounding me and,as I dozed
>> off,was awoken by the buzzing of motorbikes and found myself in a skanky
>> hotel/nightclub surrounded by a massive amount of helmets belonging to a
>> deadly  gang.
>>
>>
>>
>> They performed a ritual type ceremony in which they selected the new
>> teenage leader based on size and strength,and then out of the back of
>> the club in walks..........C, my 11 year old daughter.
>>
>>
>>
>> She partakes in the ceremony and afterwards disappears.
>>
>>
>>
>> I turn around and to my horror and disbelief,there she
>> is........performing fellatio on the new leader.
>>
>>
>>
>> The leader walks up to me afterwards to shake my hand on raising such a
>> skilled daughter and feelings of rage,hoplessness and fear of being the
>> lowest of the low overwhelm me.
>>
>>
>>
>> I tell C  in a calm,amicable way that her beauty and femina are the most
>> powerful weapons she has in a man's world which she should never give away.
>>
>>
>>
>> "I didn't" she replied,pulling out R200 from her pocket.
>>
>>
>>
>> Suddenly,I am awake,crying and shivering with the sickest sensation only
>> described as a dad's worst nightmare.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Give up the narcotics or face the consequences" was the clearest,most
>> frightening message of the Ibogaine.
>>
>>
>>
>> These type of hallucinations were experienced every night for the fist 4
>> nights which I can recall in detail, and then a euphoria was experienced.
>>
>>
>>
>> That was 3 weeks ago and I have absolutely no inclination to even
>> entertain the thoughts of GHB or white powder.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am finally at peace and motivated beyond reason to become a success
>> story,not a statistic.
>>
>>
>>
>> Strange thing is I am attracting such positive energy now and feel more
>> confident and creative, whilst being more focussed and grounded than
>> ever before.
>>
>>
>>
>> CHAPTER 7
>>
>>
>>
>> In conclusion,Ibogaine definitely seems like the standard for treating
>> addiction over and above a very dated 12 step regime.
>>
>>
>>
>> We are constantly evolving, and with evolution comes change.
>>
>>
>>
>> Why go through a 6 week minimum rehabilitation program and still feel
>> the fear and uncertainty of a relapse when the alternative,Ibogaine,
>> offers a solution to constant cravings in a week with very little chance
>> of relapse as the body is brought to a state of homeostasis relatively
>> quickly, avoiding nasty withdrawal symptoms?
>>
>>
>>
>> This is definitely a treatment for the individual who is sick  and tired
>> of feeling sick and tired and really wants to return to sobriety without
>> having to be taught how to deal with his/her addictive tendencies in a
>> condescending and uncomfortable manner of what I consider to be a sorely
>> outdated 12 step program.
>>
>>
>>
>> Within 2-3 weeks of the Ibogaine treatment,my energy levels, motivation,
>> creativity and general well being had returned to a state of normality
>> and my world had changed from grey to a colourful appreciation with no
>> desire to return to the dark, uncomfortable place I had been in just a
>> few weeks earlier.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Beat that 12 step.
>>
>>
>>
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