[Ibogaine] Ibogaine Digest, Vol 11, Issue 47

Jeremy Spence jlspence at mac.com
Mon Jul 21 16:39:48 EDT 2008


I had pain issues so that was driving my use with the opiate via the  
needle(which I don't do now)  I just take pain meds orally.

Maybe it's different for other people with it, that just what  I saw  
when I was around people using, but most of them did not pain they  
were just using to get high. I was one the only one around them who  
got on opiates for pain reason that I knew and used with.

Hey, everybody different with addictive medicine.  Some people can use  
and walk away with out a problem, other struggle with it the rest of  
their life!!! As for me I got on opiate because the pain I was in was  
hardcore and there was no cure for what I had! And the doctors told me  
that pain meds was all they could give me for it.

I am now doing natural stuff to help it, but it's a little too late,  
but I am still trying.

I just saying all the people I saw, used the needle, they could not  
control it!! Not in the least bit!!! They were always running out and  
getting sick!!  I don't think its a myth, The needle bring much more  
euphoria!! Orally does not near as much!
I am not just talking about a needle fixation! I am talking about  
people wanting to feel the euphoria from the needle injection of  
opiates!! And it getting less and less of it as time goes on!! That I  
know for a fact does happen!!
Look, I am not judging anybody. I just saying what I have seen.

Now those folks over in europe, I don't really know how they are doing  
that???, other then the fact that they have some body "CONTROLLING IT  
FOR THEM!!!"  That's the only way I can see them being able to control  
it long term.
But maybe I am wrong, I am just going on what I have seen through my  
own eyes, and not just on TV!

I was sure somebody would disagree with me on this board, I don't mind  
that. I just saying for most people it gets out of control! or why  
would people want to even quit?????

JS


On Jul 21, 2008, at 3:08 PM, ibogaine-request at mindvox.com wrote:

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>   1. Re: addiction (simon loxton)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:08:14 +0000 (GMT)
> From: simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] addiction
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Message-ID: <560617.25978.qm at web28601.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> There is a big difference between people who use drugs and  
> addiction. Addiction is a bit like OCD in my opinion and has more to  
> do with the destructive behavior pattern which does not even have to  
> involve drugs. As for needles as far as I am concerned thats a myth;  
> there is no real difference how you administer the drug other than  
> possibly developing a needle fixation. I also disagree with the  
> statement that addicts or people dependent  on opiates will increase  
> their dose and carry on so. There was a study on a group of  heroin  
> addicts over the age of fifty in Holland and they discovered that  
> their narcotic intake increased  initially but as soon as they were  
> assured that it was an ongoing  program and they could get their  
> usual  fix their dosage became constant.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Kevin Walker <kevin at ibogaineafricanrenaissance.com>
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 9:22:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] addiction
>
> Hi Jeremy,
>
> just for a laugh how many recovering "flu addicts" do you know?
>
> or recovering  "Rubella" (German measles) cases, that stand / sit in a
> little room and put their hand up " My name is John / Mary and I am a
> recovering "flu"  
> addict" ..............................BlaBlaBla........
>
> Kevin.
> ___________________________________________________________________
> NHP / Dr Kevin Walker (Reg No: 6206429)
>
>
> Disclaimer and Confidentiality Note:
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> which
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> error
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> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeremy Spence" <jlspence at mac.com>
> To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:19 PM
> Subject: [Ibogaine] addiction
>
>
>> yea, addiction is different for everybody!  I exspermented from time
>> to time when I was in high school, but never got out of control with
>> it, and never anything real hard!  No coke and for sure no H, not  
>> that
>> I judge anybody for it, because I later did try coke a few times.
>> Never wanted to using coke or anything really. I did like LSD, but
>> kind had a not so fun trip made me re think if i really wanted to try
>> and find it again?? It really was never around much, I mean acid I  
>> mean.
>>
>> I did like to drink acohol, i probably would been a high functioning
>> dunk, possibly later in life if I had not had to quit because of my
>> IC, maybe, maybe not, i will never know for sure on that one??
>>
>> I don't feel just because a person uses drugs from time to time that
>> they are a addict! They might be heading in the direction if they  
>> keep
>> going with it???  It's a possibtely??  With the opiates though,
>> espeically the needle shit, i really don't think that there are many
>> people who can continue to control it for a really long time. I know
>> their are people out there who claim they can control the needle, but
>> from what I have seen, I don't think there are many, and if they say
>> they can I have say I don't really think they are really being real
>> with them self!
>>
>> Orally opiates are not too bad (although some people can't do that
>> either), but the needle can get crazy quick!! I know their are a  
>> small
>> sub group of people who may be able to keep it under wraps for a
>> while, but I don't it's possible to do long term, I think sooner or
>> later the needle gets yours ass and completely takes over!
>>
>> And I don't care what your doing it for,physical pain, emotionally
>> pain, on the weekends, every 3rd day, ect, ect, ect, ect.  Sooner or
>> later, your mind goes, "oh just one more time", "I can get by with it
>> this one time", "It won't hurt if its just one more time", "I do it
>> today, but I won't use tomorrow" "I'm in really bad pain today it  
>> will
>> be alright"  And sooner or later you are shooting more and more, and
>> it does not do what it use to! And then, your shooting up to 3-4 time
>> per day, and that's not working anymore! Yea, I know just how it goes
>> on that. And then your it go to where your just sick all the freak en
>> time, more so then high.
>>
>> I started shooting my pain meds because, for one, I had lost all my
>> self esteem because of a horrible illness that left me in un
>> controllable pain! My 3 girl friends(over the course of 10 years),  
>> all
>> three of them who been close to dumped me over my illness about the
>> same way!!  Amy one of my old g/f at least tried to be some what nice
>> about it, I will always have the up most respect for her about that.
>> But, anyways, I had gotten sick of dealing with everything, and just
>> did not care anymore and wanted to die! I thought this would be a  
>> good
>> way to end my life!! Yea, it you don't have a tolerance that's out  
>> the
>> freak en door!! Well needless to say, things got out of control for a
>> while, about 5 years+ while!
>>
>> I don't do that shit anymore with my pain meds though!  The morel of
>> the story is, no matter how bad thing are, you have to learn how to
>> deal with the shit, or else you just going to make that shit worse on
>> your self!!
>> I felt because I had that illness that was fucked and that I could do
>> what ever the fuck I wanted with my medication!  I never counted on
>> things getting out of control with them!!  I was in cancer type pain
>> with the disease I have, and I thought, well they give it to cancer
>> patents that are in that kind of pain, why not me?? So I took things
>> into my own hands!! I don't really regret being on pain meds, i just
>> wish i been a little bit stronger mentally, but it was really hard
>> being so young and to be in that much pain!!
>>
>> I still have the disease and I still have pain, but I just deal with
>> it better(barely).  I really don't want to shoot nothing anymore! I
>> don't really look at any of that shit the same way I did back then.
>>
>> It's just goes to show everybody on this board, that if you have
>> gotten off the hook with the opiates you can go back to taking the
>> stuff right again! It's just might take a while to get your mind
>> right!! The medical people don't believe this, they think once your
>> this "addict" your always this "little fucked up addict"  "for  
>> life"!!
>> I don't know if I believe that????  I think it all has to do with  
>> what
>> has happened in that persons life!!
>>
>>
>> I can't stand how medical thinks everybody's is a freak en text  
>> book!!!
>>
>> I don't believe people are math problems!!! People are so much more
>> than that!!! I get real tired of hearing people calling them selfs
>> "junky"!! and "addicts"!, like they never can get over it!! THAT'S
>> BULL SHIT!! I am living proof of that!!!
>> People who do that, just give the medical a reason to call them that
>> and label them!! I've done it to! I just like to see people try not  
>> to
>> do it so much! It's just like a dirty label, and I think it does more
>> harm then good!
>> I feel addiction is a problem, that all it is, just like if you get
>> sick and go to the doctor and get help for a health problem or just a
>> have any other problem in your life, it's solvable!! You don't have  
>> to
>> be a label the rest of your life because you had a problem in the  
>> past
>> that is now fixed!  That's all i am saying!
>> And yes, I know some people stay addicted their whole life, that's
>> because they have not dealt with the problem! If really have dealt
>> with it they might be not be doing that type of shit?
>>
>> The reason I am still on pain meds is because of my pain, other wise
>> I  be off it. and I still hope to make it off it one day?? Maybe,
>> maybe not??  My IC is pretty bad, i just don't know about that one?
>> I mean, have every reason in the world to want go try and find
>> something to shoot up!! But I don't!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyways
>> Just my 2 cent worth!!
>> JS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 21, 2008, at 6:23 AM, ibogaine-request at mindvox.com wrote:
>>
>>> Send Ibogaine mailing list submissions to
>>> ibogaine at mindvox.com
>>>
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>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Ibogaine digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>  1. Re: Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment (Kevin Walker)
>>>  2. Re: Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment (simon loxton)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:51:49 +0200
>>> From: "Kevin Walker" <kevin at ibogaineafricanrenaissance.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>> Message-ID: <000801c8eb0f$06c43d60$0200a8c0 at KevinLaptop>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>> reply-type=original
>>>
>>> Hi Sophia,
>>>
>>> I believe a message from the heart!
>>>
>>> As you rightfully said many people experience similar things in
>>> different
>>> ways, some get caught up in things far quicker than others, and fall
>>> to the
>>> power of the drugs. I have yet to meet a person that purposely gone
>>> out and
>>> decided to become an addict out of choice. Different people fall
>>> victim to
>>> being an addict, having used or being associated to drugs for
>>> different
>>> periods in their lives, a person will never know at what point they
>>> will
>>> enter into a fixed lifestyle on being dependant on drugs and  
>>> therefore
>>> become an addict. As you also mentioned an addict also needs to
>>> identify
>>> that he/she has a problem, and deal with it in whatever way they
>>> deem fit at
>>> that point in their lives, having to make the decision is the
>>> hardest part,
>>> an addict is scared as to what type of lifestyle plays out later.
>>> Always
>>> strange as they were never scared to partake in the initial use of
>>> drugs,
>>> but somehow are anxious and scared to revert back to a clean
>>> lifestyle.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>> _____________________________________________
>>>
>>> NHP / Dr Kevin Walker (Reg No: 6206429)
>>>
>>> Disclaimer and Confidentiality Note:
>>> This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to
>>> which
>>> it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged,
>>> confidential and exempt from exposure under applicable law.   If the
>>> reader
>>> of this message is not the sole authorised recipient you are hereby
>>> notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of the
>>> communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this in
>>> error
>>> please destroy immediately. Whilst suitable precautions against  
>>> virus
>>> transmittal are taken by IBOGAINE AFRICAN RENAISSANCE (Pty)  Ltd  
>>> (and
>>> associated companies) we
>>> cannot accept any responsibility for viruses or their consequences.
>>> 12 Floria St
>>> Edleen
>>> Kempton Park
>>> 1619
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>>> e-mail: kevin at ibogaineafricanrenaissance.com
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Sophia Depas" <mssmdepas at gmail.com>
>>> To: "The Ibogaine List" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:43 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have got a great deal out of reading this conversation(is it  
>>>> called
>>>> that online?) not in relation to scoring (I couldn't resist
>>>> sorry)lol.
>>>>
>>>> Probably my most consistent  excuse for avoiding detox has been
>>>> related to my very strong beliefd system in regard to addiction in
>>>> its
>>>> many guises. Most spexcifically that I consider an addiction to  
>>>> be a
>>>> symptom of a problem and not the problem itself. However, I do
>>>> believe
>>>> that to a certain extent one will find the party person who went  
>>>> too
>>>> far and got stuck...But then there's a reaason for the party
>>>> initially
>>>> isn't thetrer?
>>>> I know that I have used in the self-destructive manner that I have,
>>>> in
>>>> order to survive and function adequately as a parent. I was not
>>>> parented and as my kids grew I believe my fear grew. I knew more  
>>>> than
>>>> the average punter about smack cuz of studying psychology. I knew  
>>>> it
>>>> was not initself harmful. I initially used morphine as a  
>>>> painkiller,
>>>> and added h when it wasn't strong enough (I have endometriosis). I
>>>> subsequently used for seven years without getting physically
>>>> addicted.
>>>> And in this tikme discovered that it enabled me to fulfill my
>>>> motherly
>>>> duties with gusto! I started to plan the worst housework around h
>>>> days. I never used more than 2 days, and always had a minimum gap
>>>> of 3
>>>> days.  Eventually it all changed and I went downhill to my personal
>>>> pit of frustartion and inadequacy This was precipitated by a trip  
>>>> on
>>>> 2cb which was one of the best and extreme mind expanding experience
>>>> out. And it began my dodgy journey. I'm not sure I could get  
>>>> through
>>>> to physical independence without ibo.
>>>> I want to finally face feeling. I wish to demonstrate this to my  
>>>> kids
>>>> although it's a little late! They are 15 and 18. And although I am
>>>> aware of the long post ibo road to recovery, I believe that the
>>>> initial ndecision is the most crucial factor.
>>>> I hope this isn't too off topic, or at all so...
>>>> love and happiness
>>>>
>>>> soph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/20/08, Matt Shriver <ibogamail at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Matt
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with what you say here.  What I think is not so good for  
>>>>> the
>>>>> ibogaine movement is when someone gives one of these glowing
>>>>> accounts and
>>>>> people who have never been introduced to ibogaine read it and say
>>>>> "Oh wow
>>>>> is
>>>>> this stuff for real?  Where is this guy now?" only to find that
>>>>> he's off
>>>>> strung out somewhere.  This is what the family and friends of that
>>>>> person
>>>>> will see also.  But yes the results can be and are amazing
>>>>> sometimes, I
>>>>> tend
>>>>> to think miraculous is the correct word based on the fact that
>>>>> miracle
>>>>> means
>>>>> something done by God.  Whatever power it is that moves through
>>>>> ibogaine,
>>>>> it
>>>>> is deep, and wide, and primordial, and most of all powerful enough
>>>>> to be
>>>>> called by that term, or at least it seems so to me.  But stopping
>>>>> using
>>>>> dope
>>>>> and staying off of dope are two different things and a full time
>>>>> ibogaine
>>>>> experience is not practical.
>>>>>
>>>>> One thing that I think happens is that if an addict stays clean,  
>>>>> the
>>>>> issues
>>>>> that contributed to their addiction will come up, when they are  
>>>>> no-
>>>>> longer
>>>>> being repressed or avoided with drugs they will resurface.  And
>>>>> when they
>>>>> do
>>>>> they can either face them and deal with them or they can attempt  
>>>>> to
>>>>> ignore
>>>>> and deny them.  If they choose the later, they will in time very
>>>>> likely
>>>>> wind
>>>>> up using dope again.  Ibogaine could be used to treat the cravings
>>>>> probably
>>>>> for a very long time, but I think more than cravings are
>>>>> involved.  How
>>>>> often do addicts use dope for other reasons: its available,  
>>>>> they're
>>>>> bored,
>>>>> they're having a feeling they don't want, whatever...  Cravings
>>>>> are only
>>>>> a
>>>>> part of the reason for using dope.  But I also think that ibogaine
>>>>> itself
>>>>> helps treat those underlying issues to some extent by bringing
>>>>> them to
>>>>> consciousness in a non-traumatizing way.
>>>>>
>>>>> So boosters used to treat cravings could very well help to treat  
>>>>> the
>>>>> underlying source of the addiction also.  But this also presumes a
>>>>> source
>>>>> that can be "treated", some people would say that addiction is a
>>>>> condition
>>>>> that cannot be cured.  From my own experience I would say both
>>>>> positions
>>>>> are
>>>>> true.  It appears that the deeper I dig into the underlying
>>>>> issues, the
>>>>> more
>>>>> issues are revealed underneath.  But the process of continually
>>>>> digging
>>>>> and
>>>>> revealing does in a way seem to affect something resembling a
>>>>> cure.  I
>>>>> have
>>>>> not had a craving to use heroin or crack or any of the other  
>>>>> various
>>>>> drugs I
>>>>> abused in years.  I do however sometimes crave a change of
>>>>> feeling, I
>>>>> sometimes wish I could escape frustration or irritation and do so
>>>>> quickly.
>>>>> But even so drugs never sound like a good idea to me, they just
>>>>> don't, I
>>>>> can't even begin to convince myself that the results won't be the
>>>>> same as
>>>>> they always used to be which was just horrendous.  So my sense is
>>>>> that if
>>>>> I
>>>>> stopped doing the things I do to "treat" my addiction, if I  
>>>>> stopped
>>>>> working
>>>>> on myself, that could change and drugs might start to sound like a
>>>>> god
>>>>> idea
>>>>> again.
>>>>>
>>>>> My opinions anonymous is that the real cure or treatment for
>>>>> addiction
>>>>> is
>>>>> to develop a lifestyle that includes a process for continual
>>>>> self-examination and personal responsibility.   The details are
>>>>> not that
>>>>> important just that there is a process and it is fully
>>>>> incorporated into
>>>>> the
>>>>> lifestyle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt.
>>>>>
>>>>> Matthew Zielinski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I think its only natural that people who had a positive,
>>>>> enlightening
>>>>> first
>>>>> ibogaine experience praise it as a life saving gift.   Sudenly
>>>>> they are
>>>>> overwhelmed with happines and joy without resorting to using
>>>>> anything to
>>>>> get
>>>>> there so that is a big deal.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is just a fact.  And it is an amazing fact!
>>>>>
>>>>> If and when they relapse they do it on their own accord. They  
>>>>> have a
>>>>> choice
>>>>> to use or not to use.  That doesn't diminish the fact that  
>>>>> ibogaine
>>>>> helped
>>>>> them tremendously in those first weeks.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the whole ibogaine program should be revised a bit.  I
>>>>> think more
>>>>> emphasis should be placed on boosters and not solely on the first
>>>>> flood
>>>>> dose.  Only looking at my self here but without the booster doses
>>>>> I think
>>>>> I
>>>>> might have slipped again.  Now with  regular boosters(even though
>>>>> I only
>>>>> had 2) I have better control over my behavior and the way I react
>>>>> to
>>>>> trigers/cravings/situations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ibogaine is an amazing tool to detox with since it eliminates most
>>>>> of the
>>>>> wd's  but as far as abstinence rate its not that affective.
>>>>> Booster
>>>>> doses
>>>>> should be implemented as a part of the ibogaine program.  Regular
>>>>> boosters
>>>>> should be advocated as the means to help achieve that sobriety.
>>>>> Since
>>>>> I'm
>>>>> only speaking from personal experience and only a short time of
>>>>> sobriety
>>>>> its
>>>>> hard to establish if thats true but speaking with few people from
>>>>> the
>>>>> list
>>>>> it does seem to be the case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Happy Sunday!
>>>>> Matt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/20/08, DC in AZ <dcollier9 at cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> depends on what label you apply to yourself by your actions, a
>>>>>> "party
>>>>> person" having a good time after work is done, and keeping a
>>>>> responsible
>>>>> life situation
>>>>>> where you pay your bills, and you care about others is one  
>>>>>> case...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> or one can label themself an "addict" where your fun is now
>>>>>> causing you
>>>>>> to
>>>>> not be responsible, and you dont care about anyone, even yourself,
>>>>>> and so on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the drug being used properly or abused - is only a small part of
>>>>>> the
>>>>> personality defects, or virtues being addressed (or ignored).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but just so fun-loving people know that they may use drugs  
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> being
>>>>> "an addiction" problem person with deep issues. that is not
>>>>> addressed by
>>>>> NA,
>>>>>> or so I have heard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> imo.
>>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Dons
>>>>>> "Love converts hearts, and gives peace."
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Matt Shriver
>>>>>> To: The Ibogaine List
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:26 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had similar reactions to Douglas.  I had thought about
>>>>>> responding
>>>>>> to
>>>>> this before but never got around to it.  I think the author over-
>>>>> stresses
>>>>> the "miracle cure" angle to ibogaine which I don't think is  
>>>>> entirely
>>>>> helpful.  I will be the first to admit that there is more than
>>>>> just a
>>>>> grain
>>>>> of truth to that perspective but it is not the whole story.  From
>>>>> what I
>>>>> have seen on this list and in myself, those who get the amazing,
>>>>> ecstatic,
>>>>> miraculously delivered from the throes of addiction experience,
>>>>> those are
>>>>> the ones most likely to write something like this, but if they do
>>>>> not
>>>>> follow
>>>>> it up with any additional effort, then more often then not they
>>>>> wind up
>>>>> using again.  And that pattern is I think not helpful for
>>>>> ibogaine.  The
>>>>> grain of truth is in the fact that people actually do have these
>>>>> experiences, I have myself.  But the whole truth is that if
>>>>> nothing else
>>>>> changes, then in the long run, nothing at all changes and they
>>>>> wind up
>>>>> right
>>>>> back where they started.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NA is one way that many people find freedom from drug addiction
>>>>>> but it
>>>>>> is
>>>>> not the only way. I think that people who are overly judgmental of
>>>>> it are
>>>>> really dealing with their own internal issues that they are
>>>>> projecting
>>>>> onto
>>>>> NA.  I will be the last to claim that NA is without it's
>>>>> problems.  But
>>>>> it's
>>>>> more or less like say for instance the Church of Jesus Christ of
>>>>> Latter
>>>>> Day
>>>>> Saints, the Mormons.  How many people go around with a resentment
>>>>> against
>>>>> the Mormons, probably not a lot.  But just as with NA the tendency
>>>>> is to
>>>>> view the whole organization based on the interactions you have
>>>>> with any
>>>>> of
>>>>> it's members.  And these people will ring your doorbell and
>>>>> interrupt
>>>>> whatever it is you are doing to try and sell you literature  
>>>>> about a
>>>>> religion
>>>>> you are probably not even interested in.  Some of them are pushy.
>>>>> Some
>>>>> of
>>>>> them are totally cool.  In my experience they are all very polite
>>>>> (other
>>>>> than sometimes being overly persistent or just generally
>>>>> bothersome like
>>>>> when different ones come by 3 days apart, c'mon I already told the
>>>>> last
>>>>> guys
>>>>> I wasn't interested).  But my point is that if you go away from
>>>>> these
>>>>> interactions with a resentment about the the Mormons in general
>>>>> than that
>>>>> is
>>>>> really about you, not the Mormons.  And it seems like there are a
>>>>> lot of
>>>>> addicts running around with 12-step resentment.  If it's not for
>>>>> you then
>>>>> cool, don't go.  But if you go around dissing on it you may well  
>>>>> be
>>>>> denying
>>>>> someone else access to the very method that would work best for
>>>>> them to
>>>>> gain
>>>>> freedom from drug addiction.  Hundreds of thousands have found
>>>>> help in NA
>>>>> and if you include AA then you can change that number to millions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But just to get back to Douglas' point, addiction doesn't happen
>>>>>> in a
>>>>> vacuum.  There are associated behaviors, thought patterns, habits,
>>>>> and
>>>>> tendencies that all support continuing in that lifestyle.  These
>>>>> things
>>>>> must
>>>>> be dealt with and these things are usually already present prior
>>>>> to drug
>>>>> addiction so simply returning to the pre-drug taking life is not
>>>>> exactly
>>>>> realistic.  If all you remove is the physical and psychological
>>>>> addiction
>>>>> to
>>>>> a specific substance you have essentially only treated the
>>>>> manifestations
>>>>> of
>>>>> the issue, not the actual issue itself.  However you want to talk
>>>>> about
>>>>> addiction and in whatever terms, most people would agree that it
>>>>> is more
>>>>> than simply the repeated use of a substance.  That is the most
>>>>> obvious
>>>>> outward manifestation but many personality traits and behaviors
>>>>> seemingly
>>>>> unrelated to the drug use are also shared among addicts to say
>>>>> nothing of
>>>>> people who manifest addictive behaviors around activities like
>>>>> gambling
>>>>> that
>>>>> have nothing at all to do with consuming mind altering substances.
>>>>> Whatever
>>>>> it is that leads people into a situation where they become
>>>>> dependent on
>>>>> the
>>>>> repeated use of a drug, simply removing the drug from the over-all
>>>>> picture
>>>>> does not actually impact on that thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Douglas Fraser wrote:
>>>>>> hrm.... I had a khat plant while I was living in Vancouver. Never
>>>>>> really
>>>>>> used it b/c it was of the weak variety, but it's a nice plant....
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> course, I was not refining the chemical to excess a la coca and
>>>>> cocaine....
>>>>>> but speed freaks are .. freaks and that sort of applies to our
>>>>>> overcaffeinated Western culture. And of course, it's always
>>>>>> easier to
>>>>>> blame the chemicals than one's life and how one's living it and  
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> acknowledging one's problems
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be honest, what bugs me about this story is that the author
>>>>>> does not
>>>>>> ever seem to acknowledge the chemicals were just tools for him to
>>>>>> escape
>>>>>> his issues - it's like he never had any issues and then one day,
>>>>>> poof!
>>>>>> he's an addict. maybe it's just my projections... and the way he
>>>>>> writes.
>>>>>> Then he imparts such power to ibogaine.. or seems to. This is a
>>>>>> subtle
>>>>>> point, but it's a crucial one. Ibogaine can be considered to have
>>>>>> something of a "cult" surrounding it, much like ayahuasca does,
>>>>>> and if
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> (society) can deal with those projections in an honest manner,
>>>>>> then we
>>>>>> won't be faced with the trouble that acid and MDMA had to deal  
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> (the
>>>>>> hysteria, the bans, etc). then again, I'm an idealist....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> doug
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kevin Walker wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To The List.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A patient forward this attachment and asked me please to publish
>>>>>> it on
>>>>>> Mindvox for him!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>> THE EVOLUTION OF ADDICTION TREATMENT- By Bareman 12
>>>>>> July 2008
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Try some of this." smiled Dean, handing my wife and I a small
>>>>>> piece of
>>>>>> paper with some white powder in the centre.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "It's called cut or cat and is a chemical version of the
>>>>>> plant ,cut,
>>>>>> used to enhance energy and concentration,much like a herbal
>>>>>> version of
>>>>>> cocaine."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 15 minutes later we were driving to our magnificent , fully paid
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> house, with our music studio, one of the finest and most magical
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We were feeling motivated, on top of the world,energetic beyond
>>>>>> belief
>>>>>> and excited about the prospects of life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That powder sure had a kick to it, a kick that we would later be
>>>>>> directed toward my manhood.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 2
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Half an hour after arriving home and working passionately on a  
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> song,
>>>>>> we felt the need for a little more of the magic powder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Hey Dean, got any more cat?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Sure, I make the stuff,but it's rather expensive to produce so I
>>>>>> sell
>>>>>> it to my friends at 150 a gram."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I"m coming back,give me 2."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I walked upstairs to our safe where we had about 100 00 rand in
>>>>>> cash,
>>>>>> and took a mere 300 for Dean.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See, I figured for 300 rand we were so prolific and energetic
>>>>>> that we
>>>>>> could do 2 days work in one, so why not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We had tried Ritalin before and cat was like it's big brother in
>>>>>> so far
>>>>>> as focus and energy was concerned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dean told me it was based on a naturally occurring herb, so what
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> harm?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We finished working in the early hours of the morning, sustaining
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> energies by topping up with another line every half hour or  
>>>>>> so,and
>>>>>> let's
>>>>>> just say making love was explosive to say the least. Bonus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now as for our sleep life, the birds were chirping,the sun was
>>>>>> rising
>>>>>> and we had no intentions of entertaining the notion of alpha/beta
>>>>>> states
>>>>>> as we had to get our daughter ready for school.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lucky we still had some left which we hastily finished.
>>>>>> Fantastic, it
>>>>>> felt like we had just had a good ten hours of slumber and were
>>>>>> ready
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> another exciting day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 4
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After taking C to school, I popped into Dean's place with some  
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> cash
>>>>>> from the safe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Give me 5 grams, I don't want to run out."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That day we went to our doctor complaining of insomnia. He
>>>>>> obliged by
>>>>>> giving us a script for sleeping tablets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We were set.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 5
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Three years later:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We had invested in a house in an exclusive suburb which we were
>>>>>> letting
>>>>>> out on the basis that the tenants rent would pay the mortgage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our tenants were moving out and we thought this the ideal
>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> move in and start a drug free life as the novelty had worn off
>>>>>> and we
>>>>>> weren't feeling great anymore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dean had quit so we were getting from another supplier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will never forget the day 5 year old C walked into the studio  
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> said
>>>>>> "You know what,dad? Taking drugs is like taking a brand new house
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> the more drugs you take,the older and dirtier the house gets
>>>>>> until it
>>>>>> turns into a dirty old cottage..................that's
>>>>> why you and mom
>>>>>> want to move to Dainfern."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She was sharp,real sharp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 6
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eight years after our first encounter:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here I sit, a divorced,lonely,broken,drug dependent 40 year old
>>>>>> man.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All my accumulated wealth gone due to irrational
>>>>>> investment,giving half
>>>>>> of it away and my 2 designer drugs of choice,Gamma Hydroxyl
>>>>>> Butyrate and
>>>>>> Meth-cathanone (cat)consuming the rest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No house,no studio,no friends,no family,no clients only the
>>>>>> uncomfortable cravings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I had been to a 12 step conventional rehab a few years earlier
>>>>>> and had
>>>>>> lasted 5 days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then my ex told me about Ibogaine, a naturally occurring
>>>>>> hallucinogenic
>>>>>> plant derivative used by the Ubuntu tribe during
>>>>>> ceremonials,which was
>>>>>> accidently found to stop cravings for heroin and other substances
>>>>>> without withdrawals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See, a conventional 6 week rehab program teaches you how to deal
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the cravings, whereas Ibogaine nullifies the cravings without the
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> feared withdrawals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't get me wrong,Ibogaine is a tough route to take and the
>>>>>> first 4
>>>>>> days were filled with hallucinations and ataxia (partial loss of
>>>>>> control
>>>>>> of the limbs.), but worth every second.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is part of an email I sent my friend pertaining to one
>>>>>> hallucination I experienced:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The process was uncomfortable and time passed slowly as the plant
>>>>>> worked
>>>>>> its way through my brain "reformatting" my hard drive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is a hallucinogenic and makes you very aware on an
>>>>>> introspective as
>>>>>> well as a spiritual level.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Day one and I started hearing ancient chanting which grew  
>>>>>> louder at
>>>>>> night,especially before sleep where my adventures would begin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I heard a digeridoo type buzzing sound surrounding me and,as I
>>>>>> dozed
>>>>>> off,was awoken by the buzzing of motorbikes and found myself in a
>>>>>> skanky
>>>>>> hotel/nightclub surrounded by a massive amount of helmets
>>>>>> belonging to
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> deadly gang.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They performed a ritual type ceremony in which they selected the
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> teenage leader based on size and strength,and then out of the
>>>>>> back of
>>>>>> the club in walks..........C, my 11 year old daughter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She partakes in the ceremony and afterwards disappears.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I turn around and to my horror and disbelief,there she
>>>>>> is........performing fleet on the new leader.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The leader walks up to me afterwards to shake my hand on raising
>>>>>> such a
>>>>>> skilled daughter and feelings of rage,hoplessness and fear of
>>>>>> being the
>>>>>> lowest of the low overwhelm me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tell C in a calm,amicable way that her beauty and Fenian are
>>>>>> the most
>>>>>> powerful weapons she has in a man's world which she should never
>>>>>> give
>>>>> away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I didn't" she replied,pulling out R200 from her pocket.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Suddenly,I am awake,crying and shivering with the sickest  
>>>>>> sensation
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> described as a dad's worst nightmare.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Give up the narcotics or face the consequences" was the
>>>>>> clearest,most
>>>>>> frightening message of the Ibogaine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These type of hallucinations were experienced every night for the
>>>>>> fist
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>> nights which I can recall in detail, and then a euphoria was
>>>>>> experienced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That was 3 weeks ago and I have absolutely no inclination to even
>>>>>> entertain the thoughts of GHB or white powder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am finally at peace and motivated beyond reason to become a
>>>>>> success
>>>>>> story,not a statistic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Strange thing is I am attracting such positive energy now and
>>>>>> feel more
>>>>>> confident and creative, whilst being more focussed and grounded
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> ever before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CHAPTER 7
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In conclusion,Ibogaine definitely seems like the standard for
>>>>>> treating
>>>>>> addiction over and above a very dated 12 step regime.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are constantly evolving, and with evolution comes change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why go through a 6 week minimum rehabilitation program and still
>>>>>> feel
>>>>>> the fear and uncertainty of a relapse when the
>>>>>> alternative,Ibogaine,
>>>>>> offers a solution to constant cravings in a week with very little
>>>>>> chance
>>>>>> of relapse as the body is brought to a state of homeostasis
>>>>>> relatively
>>>>>> quickly, avoiding nasty withdrawal symptoms?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is definitely a treatment for the individual who is sick and
>>>>>> tired
>>>>>> of feeling sick and tired and really wants to return to sobriety
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> having to be taught how to deal with his/her addictive tendencies
>>>>>> in a
>>>>>> condescending and uncomfortable manner of what I consider to be a
>>>>>> sorely
>>>>>> outdated 12 step program.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Within 2-3 weeks of the Ibogaine treatment,my energy levels,
>>>>>> motivation,
>>>>>> creativity and general well being had returned to a state of
>>>>>> normality
>>>>>> and my world had changed from grey to a colorful appreciation
>>>>>> with no
>>>>>> desire to return to the dark, uncomfortable place I had been in
>>>>>> just a
>>>>>> few weeks earlier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beat that 12 step.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::
>>>>> [%][)
>>>>>> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::
>>>>> [%][)
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::
>>>>> [%][)
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>>> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:22:47 +0000 (GMT)
>>> From: simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>> Message-ID: <465804.4056.qm at web28615.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Hey Matt;
>>>
>>> Thats a very important point you have made.
>>>
>>> Personally I struggle getting long term feedback from patients.
>>> There is a lot of information before; during and just after the
>>> experience but not nearly as much six months to a year later. I try
>>> to stress the importance of just keeping in contact so that when
>>> whatever the usual triggers start presenting themselves they can be
>>> dealt with; easily if caught in time.
>>>
>>> The other problem I have experienced with people who dont stay in
>>> touch and continue with some form of after care; is that they only
>>> respond when things are too late or there has already been a lapse.
>>> In these situations if they continue to go it alone its common to
>>> think the ibogaine has not worked (But thats a whole topic on its  
>>> own)
>>>
>>> So I would stress the importance of keeping in touch. Obviously it
>>> would be easier to have a six month program or some thing like that
>>> but thats not everyones cup of tea or even doable in most cases.
>>>
>>> Keep well Matt.
>>>
>>> Si'
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Matthew Zielinski <masterhermesbathory at gmail.com>
>>> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 12:17:23 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>
>>>
>>> I think its only natural that people who had a positive,
>>> enlightening first ibogaine experience praise it as a life saving
>>> gift.   Sudenly they are overwhelmed with happines and joy without
>>> resorting to using anything to get there so that is a big deal.
>>>
>>> That is just a fact.  And it is an amazing fact!
>>>
>>> If and when they relapse they do it on their own accord. They have a
>>> choice to use or not to use.  That doesnt diminish the fact that
>>> ibogaine helped them tremendously in those first weeks.
>>>
>>> I think the whole ibogaine program should be revised a bit.  I think
>>> more emphasis should be placed on boosters and not solely on the
>>> first flood dose.  Only looking at my self here but without the
>>> booster doses I think I might have slipped again.  Now with
>>> regular boosters(even though I only had 2) I have better control
>>> over my behavior and the way I react to trigers/cravings/situations.
>>>
>>> Ibogaine is an amazing tool to detox with since it eliminates most
>>> of the wd's  but as far as abstinence rate its not that affective.
>>> Booster doses should be implemented as a part of the ibogaine
>>> program.  Regular boosters should be advocated as the means to help
>>> achieve that sobriety.  Since I'm only speaking from personal
>>> experience and only a short time of sobriety its hard to establish
>>> if thats true but speaking with few people from the list it does
>>> seem to be the case.
>>>
>>> Happy Sunday!
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/20/08, DC in AZ <dcollier9 at cox.net> wrote:
>>> depends on what label you apply to yourself by your actions, a
>>> "party person" having a good time after work is done, and keeping a
>>> responsible life situation
>>> where you pay your bills, and you care about others is one case...
>>>
>>> or one can label themself an "addict" where your fun is now causing
>>> you to not be responsible, and you dont care about anyone, even
>>> yourself,
>>> and so on.
>>>
>>> the drug being used properly or abused - is only a small part of the
>>> personality defects, or virtues being addressed (or ignored).
>>>
>>> but just so fun-loving people know that they may use drugs without
>>> being "an addiction" problem person with deep issues. that is not
>>> addressed by NA,
>>> or so I have heard.
>>>
>>> imo.
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Dons
>>> "Love converts hearts, and gives peace."
>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Matt Shriver
>>> To: The Ibogaine List
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:26 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
>>>
>>> I had similar reactions to Douglas.  I had thought about responding
>>> to this before but never got around to it.  I think the author over-
>>> stresses the "miracle cure" angle to ibogaine which I don't think is
>>> entirely helpful.  I will be the first to admit that there is more
>>> than just a grain of truth to that perspective but it is not the
>>> whole story.  From what I have seen on this list and in myself,
>>> those who get the amazing, ecstatic, miraculously delivered from the
>>> throes of addiction experience, those are the ones most likely to
>>> write something like this, but if they do not follow it up with any
>>> additional effort, then more often then not they wind up using
>>> again.  And that pattern is I think not helpful for ibogaine.  The
>>> grain of truth is in the fact that people actually do have these
>>> experiences, I have myself.  But the whole truth is that if nothing
>>> else changes, then in the long run, nothing at all changes and they
>>> wind up right back where they
>>> started.
>>>
>>> NA is one way that many people find freedom from drug addiction but
>>> it is not the only way. I think that people who are overly
>>> judgmental of it are really dealing with their own internal issues
>>> that they are projecting onto NA.  I will be the last to claim that
>>> NA is without it's problems.  But it's more or less like say for
>>> instance the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the
>>> Mormons.  How many people go around with a resentment against the
>>> Mormons, probably not a lot.  But just as with NA the tendency is to
>>> view the whole organization based on the interactions you have with
>>> any of it's members.  And these people will ring your doorbell and
>>> interrupt whatever it is you are doing to try and sell you
>>> literature about a religion you are probably not even interested
>>> in.  Some of them are pushy.  Some of them are totally cool.  In my
>>> experience they are all very polite (other than sometimes being
>>> overly persistent or just generally bothersome like
>>> when different ones come by 3 days apart, c'mon I already told the
>>> last guys I wasn't interested).  But my point is that if you go away
>>> from these interactions with a resentment about the the Mormons in
>>> general than that is really about you, not the Mormons.  And it
>>> seems like there are a lot of addicts running around with 12-step
>>> resentment.  If it's not for you then cool, don't go.  But if you go
>>> around dissing on it you may well be denying someone else access to
>>> the very method that would work best for them to gain freedom from
>>> drug addiction.  Hundreds of thousands have found help in NA and if
>>> you include AA then you can change that number to millions.
>>>
>>> But just to get back to Douglas' point, addiction doesn't happen in
>>> a vacuum.  There are associated behaviors, thought patterns, habits,
>>> and tendencies that all support continuing in that lifestyle.  These
>>> things must be dealt with and these things are usually already
>>> present prior to drug addiction so simply returning to the pre-drug
>>> taking life is not exactly realistic.  If all you remove is the
>>> physical and psychological addiction to a specific substance you
>>> have essentially only treated the manifestations of the issue, not
>>> the actual issue itself.  However you want to talk about addiction
>>> and in whatever terms, most people would agree that it is more than
>>> simply the repeated use of a substance.  That is the most obvious
>>> outward manifestation but many personality traits and behaviors
>>> seemingly unrelated to the drug use are also shared among addicts to
>>> say nothing of people who manifest addictive behaviors around
>>> activities like gambling that have
>>> nothing at all to do with consuming mind altering substances.
>>> Whatever it is that leads people into a situation where they become
>>> dependent on the repeated use of a drug, simply removing the drug
>>> from the over-all picture does not actually impact on that thing.
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>> Douglas Fraser wrote:
>>> hrm....  I had a khat plant while I was living in Vancouver.  Never
>>> really
>>> used it b/c it was of the weak variety, but it's a nice plant....
>>> and of
>>> course, I was not refining the chemical to excess a la coca and
>>> cocaine....
>>>  but speed freaks are .. freaks and that sort of applies to our
>>> overcaffeinated Western culture.   And of course, it's always easier
>>> to
>>> blame the chemicals than one's life and how one's living it and not
>>> acknowledging one's problems
>>>
>>> To be honest, what bugs me about this story is that the author does
>>> not
>>> ever seem to acknowledge the chemicals were just tools for him to
>>> escape
>>> his issues - it's like he never had any issues and then one day,  
>>> poof!
>>> he's an addict.   maybe it's just my projections... and the way he
>>> writes.
>>>   Then he imparts such power to ibogaine.. or seems to.  This is a
>>> subtle
>>> point, but it's a crucial one.  Ibogaine can be considered to have
>>> something of a "cult" surrounding it, much like ayahuasca does, and
>>> if we
>>> (society) can deal with those projections in an honest manner,  
>>> then we
>>> won't be faced with the trouble that acid and MDMA had to deal with
>>> (the
>>> hysteria, the bans, etc).     then again, I'm an idealist....
>>>
>>> doug
>>>
>>> Kevin Walker wrote:
>>>
>>> To The List.
>>>
>>> A patient forward this attachment and asked me please to publish  
>>> it on
>>> Mindvox for him!
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Kevin
>>> THE EVOLUTION OF ADDICTION TREATMENT- By Bareman                    
>>> 12
>>> July 2008
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 1
>>>
>>> "Try some of this." smiled Dean, handing my wife and I a small piece
>>> of
>>> paper with some white powder in the centre.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "It's called cut or cat and is a chemical version of the plant ,cut,
>>> used to enhance energy and concentration,much like a herbal  
>>> version of
>>> cocaine."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 15 minutes later we were driving to our magnificent , fully paid for
>>> house, with our music studio, one of the finest and most magical in
>>> the
>>> country.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We were feeling motivated, on top of the world,energetic beyond  
>>> belief
>>> and excited about the prospects of life.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That powder sure had a kick to it, a kick that we would later  be
>>> directed toward my manhood.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 2
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Half an hour after arriving home and working passionately on a new
>>> song,
>>> we felt the need for a little more of the magic powder.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Hey Dean, got any more cat?"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Sure, I make the stuff,but it's rather expensive to produce so I  
>>> sell
>>> it to my friends at 150 a gram."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "I"m coming back,give me 2."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I walked upstairs to our safe where we had about 100 00 rand in  
>>> cash,
>>> and took a mere 300 for Dean.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> See, I figured for 300 rand we were so prolific and energetic that  
>>> we
>>> could do 2 days work in one, so why not?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We had tried Ritalin before and cat was like it's big brother in so
>>> far
>>> as focus and energy was concerned.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dean told me it was based on a naturally occurring herb, so what was
>>> the
>>> harm?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 3
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We finished working in the early hours of the morning, sustaining  
>>> our
>>> energies by topping up with another line every half hour or so,and
>>> let's
>>> just say making love was explosive to say the least. Bonus.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now as for our sleep life, the birds were chirping,the sun was  
>>> rising
>>> and we had no intentions of entertaining the notion of alpha/beta
>>> states
>>> as we had to get our daughter ready for school.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Lucky we still had some left which we hastily finished. Fantastic,  
>>> it
>>> felt like we had just had a good ten hours of slumber and were ready
>>> for
>>> another exciting day.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 4
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> After taking C to school, I popped into Dean's place with some more
>>> cash
>>> from the safe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Give me 5 grams, I don't want to run out."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That day we went to our doctor complaining of insomnia. He obliged  
>>> by
>>> giving us a script for sleeping tablets.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We were set.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Three years later:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We had invested in a house in an exclusive suburb which we were
>>> letting
>>> out on the basis that the tenants rent would pay the mortgage.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Our tenants were moving out and we thought this the ideal
>>> opportunity to
>>> move in and start a drug free life as the novelty had worn off and  
>>> we
>>> weren't feeling great anymore.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dean had quit so we were getting from another supplier.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I will never forget the day 5 year old C walked into the studio and
>>> said
>>> "You know what,dad? Taking drugs is like taking a brand new house  
>>> and
>>> the more drugs you take,the older and dirtier the house gets until  
>>> it
>>> turns into a dirty old cottage..................that's why you and  
>>> mom
>>> want to move to Dainfern."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> She was sharp,real sharp.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 6
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Eight years after our first encounter:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here I sit, a divorced,lonely,broken,drug dependent 40 year old man.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All my accumulated wealth gone due to irrational investment,giving
>>> half
>>> of it away and my 2 designer drugs of choice,Gamma Hydroxyl Butyrate
>>> and
>>> Meth-cathanone (cat)consuming the rest.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No house,no studio,no friends,no family,no clients only the
>>> uncomfortable cravings.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I had been to a 12 step conventional rehab a few years earlier and  
>>> had
>>> lasted 5 days.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Then my ex told me about Ibogaine, a naturally occurring
>>> hallucinogenic
>>> plant derivative used by the Ubuntu tribe during ceremonials,which  
>>> was
>>> accidently found to stop cravings for heroin and other substances
>>> without withdrawals.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> See, a conventional 6 week rehab program teaches you how to deal  
>>> with
>>> the cravings, whereas Ibogaine nullifies the cravings without the  
>>> much
>>> feared withdrawals.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Don't get me wrong,Ibogaine is a tough route to take and the first 4
>>> days were filled with hallucinations and ataxia (partial loss of
>>> control
>>> of the limbs.), but worth every second.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is part of an email I sent my friend pertaining to one
>>> hallucination I experienced:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The process was uncomfortable and time passed slowly as the plant
>>> worked
>>> its way through my brain "reformatting" my hard drive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is a hallucinogenic and makes you very aware on an  
>>> introspective as
>>> well as a spiritual level.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Day one and I started hearing ancient chanting which grew louder at
>>> night,especially before sleep where my adventures would begin.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I heard a digeridoo type buzzing sound surrounding me and,as I dozed
>>> off,was awoken by the buzzing of motorbikes and found myself in a
>>> skanky
>>> hotel/nightclub surrounded by a massive amount of helmets belonging
>>> to a
>>> deadly  gang.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> They performed a ritual type ceremony in which they selected the new
>>> teenage leader based on size and strength,and then out of the back  
>>> of
>>> the club in walks..........C, my 11 year old daughter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> She partakes in the ceremony and afterwards disappears.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I turn around and to my horror and disbelief,there she
>>> is........performing fleet on the new leader.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The leader walks up to me afterwards to shake my hand on raising
>>> such a
>>> skilled daughter and feelings of rage,hoplessness and fear of being
>>> the
>>> lowest of the low overwhelm me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I tell C  in a calm,amicable way that her beauty and Fenian are the
>>> most
>>> powerful weapons she has in a man's world which she should never
>>> give away.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "I didn't" she replied,pulling out R200 from her pocket.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Suddenly,I am awake,crying and shivering with the sickest sensation
>>> only
>>> described as a dad's worst nightmare.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Give up the narcotics or face the consequences" was the  
>>> clearest,most
>>> frightening message of the Ibogaine.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> These type of hallucinations were experienced every night for the
>>> fist 4
>>> nights which I can recall in detail, and then a euphoria was
>>> experienced.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That was 3 weeks ago and I have absolutely no inclination to even
>>> entertain the thoughts of GHB or white powder.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am finally at peace and motivated beyond reason to become a  
>>> success
>>> story,not a statistic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Strange thing is I am attracting such positive energy now and feel
>>> more
>>> confident and creative, whilst being more focussed and grounded than
>>> ever before.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CHAPTER 7
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In conclusion,Ibogaine definitely seems like the standard for  
>>> treating
>>> addiction over and above a very dated 12 step regime.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We are constantly evolving, and with evolution comes change.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why go through a 6 week minimum rehabilitation program and still  
>>> feel
>>> the fear and uncertainty of a relapse when the alternative,Ibogaine,
>>> offers a solution to constant cravings in a week with very little
>>> chance
>>> of relapse as the body is brought to a state of homeostasis  
>>> relatively
>>> quickly, avoiding nasty withdrawal symptoms?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is definitely a treatment for the individual who is sick  and
>>> tired
>>> of feeling sick and tired and really wants to return to sobriety
>>> without
>>> having to be taught how to deal with his/her addictive tendencies  
>>> in a
>>> condescending and uncomfortable manner of what I consider to be a
>>> sorely
>>> outdated 12 step program.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Within 2-3 weeks of the Ibogaine treatment,my energy levels,
>>> motivation,
>>> creativity and general well being had returned to a state of  
>>> normality
>>> and my world had changed from grey to a colorful appreciation with  
>>> no
>>> desire to return to the dark, uncomfortable place I had been in  
>>> just a
>>> few weeks earlier.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Beat that 12 step.
>>>
>>>
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