[Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment

simon loxton simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk
Mon Jul 21 07:22:47 EDT 2008


Hey Matt;

Thats a very important point you have made.

Personally I struggle getting long term feedback from patients. There is a lot of information before; during and just after the experience but not nearly as much six months to a year later. I try to stress the importance of just keeping in contact so that when whatever the usual triggers start presenting themselves they can be dealt with; easily if caught in time.

The other problem I have experienced with people who dont stay in touch and continue with some form of after care; is that they only respond when things are too late or there has already been a lapse. In these situations if they continue to go it alone its common to think the ibogaine has not worked (But thats a whole topic on its own)

So I would stress the importance of keeping in touch. Obviously it would be easier to have a six month program or some thing like that but thats not everyones cup of tea or even do'able in most cases.

Keep well Matt.

Si'





----- Original Message ----
From: Matthew Zielinski <masterhermesbathory at gmail.com>
To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, 21 July, 2008 12:17:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment


I think its only natural that people who had a positive, enlightening first ibogaine experience praise it as a life saving gift.   Sudenly they are overwhelmed with happines and joy without resorting to using anything to get there so that is a big deal.
 
That is just a fact.  And it is an amazing fact!  
 
If and when they relapse they do it on their own accord. They have a choice to use or not to use.  That doesnt diminish the fact that ibogaine helped them tremendously in those first weeks.  
 
I think the whole ibogaine program should be revised a bit.  I think more emphasis should be placed on boosters and not solely on the first flood dose.  Only looking at my self here but without the booster doses I think I might have slipped again.  Now with  regualar boosters(even though I only had 2) I have better control over my behaviour and the way I react to trigers/cravings/situations.  
 
Ibogaine is an amazing tool to detox with since it elimenates most of the wd's  but as far as abstianance rate its not that affective.  Booster doses should be implemented as a part of the ibogaine program.  Regular boosters should be advocated as the means to help acheaive that sobriety.  Since I'm only speaking from personal experience and only a short time of sobriety its hard to establish if thats true but speaking with few people from the list it does seem to be the case.  
 
Happy Sunday!
Matt
 
 
 
 
 
On 7/20/08, DC in AZ <dcollier9 at cox.net> wrote:
depends on what label you apply to yourself by your actions, a "party person" having a good time after work is done, and keeping a responsible life situation
where you pay your bills, and you care about others is one case...
 
or one can label themself an "addict" where your fun is now causing you to not be responsible, and you dont care about anyone, even yourself,
and so on.
 
the drug being used properly or abused - is only a small part of the personality defects, or virtues being addressed (or ignored).
 
but just so fun-loving people know that they may use drugs without being "an addiction" problem person with deep issues. that is not addressed by NA,
or so I have heard.
 
imo.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donzo
"Love converts hearts, and gives peace."
__________________________________________________
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Matt Shriver 
To: The Ibogaine List 
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment

 I had similar reactions to Douglas.  I had thought about responding to this before but never got around to it.  I think the author over-stresses the "miracle cure" angle to ibogaine which I don't think is entirely helpful.  I will be the first to admit that there is more than just a grain of truth to that perspective but it is not the whole story.  From what I have seen on this list and in myself, those who get the amazing, ecstatic, miraculously delivered from the throes of addiction experience, those are the ones most likely to write something like this, but if they do not follow it up with any additional effort, then more often then not they wind up using again.  And that pattern is I think not helpful for ibogaine.  The grain of truth is in the fact that people actually do have these experiences, I have myself.  But the whole truth is that if nothing else changes, then in the long run, nothing at all changes and they wind up right back where they
 started.

NA is one way that many people find freedom from drug addiction but it is not the only way. I think that people who are overly judgmental of it are really dealing with their own internal issues that they are projecting onto NA.  I will be the last to claim that NA is without it's problems.  But it's more or less like say for instance the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormons.  How many people go around with a resentment against the Mormons, probably not a lot.  But just as with NA the tendency is to view the whole organization based on the interactions you have with any of it's members.  And these people will ring your doorbell and interrupt whatever it is you are doing to try and sell you literature about a religion you are probably not even interested in.  Some of them are pushy.  Some of them are totally cool.  In my experience they are all very polite (other than sometimes being overly persistent or just generally bothersome like
 when different ones come by 3 days apart, c'mon I already told the last guys I wasn't interested).  But my point is that if you go away from these interactions with a resentment about the the Mormons in general than that is really about you, not the Mormons.  And it seems like there are a lot of addicts running around with 12-step resentment.  If it's not for you then cool, don't go.  But if you go around dissing on it you may well be denying someone else access to the very method that would work best for them to gain freedom from drug addiction.  Hundreds of thousands have found help in NA and if you include AA then you can change that number to millions.

But just to get back to Douglas' point, addiction doesn't happen in a vacuum.  There are associated behaviors, thought patterns, habits, and tendencies that all support continuing in that lifestyle.  These things must be dealt with and these things are usually already present prior to drug addiction so simply returning to the pre-drug taking life is not exactly realistic.  If all you remove is the physical and psychological addiction to a specific substance you have essentially only treated the manifestations of the issue, not the actual issue itself.  However you want to talk about addiction and in whatever terms, most people would agree that it is more than simply the repeated use of a substance.  That is the most obvious outward manifestation but many personality traits and behaviors seemingly unrelated to the drug use are also shared among addicts to say nothing of people who manifest addictive behaviors around activities like gambling that have
 nothing at all to do with consuming mind altering substances.  Whatever it is that leads people into a situation where they become dependent on the repeated use of a drug, simply removing the drug from the over-all picture does not actually impact on that thing.

Matt

Douglas Fraser wrote: 
hrm....  I had a khat plant while I was living in Vancouver.  Never really 
used it b/c it was of the weak variety, but it's a nice plant....   and of 
course, I was not refining the chemical to excess a la coca and cocaine.... 
   but speed freaks are .. freaks and that sort of applies to our 
overcaffeinated Western culture.   And of course, it's always easier to 
blame the chemicals than one's life and how one's living it and not 
acknowledging one's problems

To be honest, what bugs me about this story is that the author does not 
ever seem to acknowledge the chemicals were just tools for him to escape 
his issues - it's like he never had any issues and then one day, poof! 
he's an addict.   maybe it's just my projections... and the way he writes. 
    Then he imparts such power to ibogaine.. or seems to.  This is a subtle 
point, but it's a crucial one.  Ibogaine can be considered to have 
something of a "cult" surrounding it, much like ayahuasca does, and if we 
(society) can deal with those projections in an honest manner, then we 
won't be faced with the trouble that acid and MDMA had to deal with (the 
hysteria, the bans, etc).     then again, I'm an idealist....

doug

Kevin Walker wrote:

To The List.

A patient forward this attachment and asked me please to publish it on 
Mindvox for him!

Regards
Kevin
THE EVOLUTION OF ADDICTION TREATMENT- By Bareman                   12 
July 2008

CHAPTER 1

"Try some of this." smiled Dean, handing my wife and I a small piece of 
paper with some white powder in the centre.



"It's called cut or cat and is a chemical version of the plant ,cut, 
used to enhance energy and concentration,much like a herbal version of 
cocaine."



15 minutes later we were driving to our magnificent , fully paid for 
house, with our music studio, one of the finest and most magical in the 
country.



We were feeling motivated, on top of the world,energetic beyond belief 
and excited about the prospects of life.



That powder sure had a kick to it, a kick that we would later  be 
directed toward my manhood.



CHAPTER 2



Half an hour after arriving home and working passionately on a new song, 
we felt the need for a little more of the magic powder.



"Hey Dean, got any more cat?"



"Sure, I make the stuff,but it's rather expensive to produce so I sell 
it to my friends at 150 a gram."



"I"m coming back,give me 2."



I walked upstairs to our safe where we had about 100 00 rand in cash, 
and took a mere 300 for Dean.



See, I figured for 300 rand we were so prolific and energetic that we 
could do 2 days work in one, so why not?



We had tried Ritalin before and cat was like it's big brother in so far 
as focus and energy was concerned.



Dean told me it was based on a naturally occurring herb, so what was the 
harm?



CHAPTER 3



We finished working in the early hours of the morning, sustaining our 
energies by topping up with another line every half hour or so,and let's 
just say making love was explosive to say the least. Bonus.



Now as for our sleep life, the birds were chirping,the sun was rising 
and we had no intentions of entertaining the notion of alpha/beta states 
as we had to get our daughter ready for school.



Lucky we still had some left which we hastily finished. Fantastic, it 
felt like we had just had a good ten hours of slumber and were ready for 
another exciting day.



CHAPTER 4



After taking C to school, I popped into Dean's place with some more cash 
from the safe.



"Give me 5 grams, I don't want to run out."



That day we went to our doctor complaining of insomnia. He obliged by 
giving us a script for sleeping tablets.



We were set.



CHAPTER 5



Three years later:



We had invested in a house in an exclusive suburb which we were letting 
out on the basis that the tenants rent would pay the mortgage.



Our tenants were moving out and we thought this the ideal opportunity to 
move in and start a drug free life as the novelty had worn off and we 
weren't feeling great anymore.



Dean had quit so we were getting from another supplier.



I will never forget the day 5 year old C walked into the studio and said 
"You know what,dad? Taking drugs is like taking a brand new house and 
the more drugs you take,the older and dirtier the house gets until it 
turns into a dirty old cottage..................that's why you and mom 
want to move to Dainfern."



She was sharp,real sharp.



CHAPTER 6



Eight years after our first encounter:



Here I sit, a divorced,lonely,broken,drug dependent 40 year old man.



All my accumulated wealth gone due to irrational investment,giving half 
of it away and my 2 designer drugs of choice,Gamma Hydroxy Buturate and 
Meth-cathanone (cat)consuming the rest.



No house,no studio,no friends,no family,no clients only the 
uncomfortable cravings.



I had been to a 12 step conventional rehab a few years earlier and had 
lasted 5 days.



Then my ex told me about Ibogaine, a naturally occurring hallucinogenic 
plant derivative used by the Ubuntu tribe during ceremonials,which was 
accidently found to stop cravings for heroin and other substances 
without withdrawals.



See, a conventional 6 week rehab program teaches you how to deal with 
the cravings, whereas Ibogaine nullifies the cravings without the much 
feared withdrawals.



Don't get me wrong,Ibogaine is a tough route to take and the first 4 
days were filled with hallucinations and ataxia (partial loss of control 
of the limbs.), but worth every second.



Here is part of an email I sent my friend pertaining to one 
hallucination I experienced:





The process was uncomfortable and time passed slowly as the plant worked 
its way through my brain "reformatting" my hard drive.



It is a hallucinogenic and makes you very aware on an introspective as 
well as a spiritual level.



Day one and I started hearing ancient chanting which grew louder at 
night,especially before sleep where my adventures would begin.



I heard a digeridoo type buzzing sound surrounding me and,as I dozed 
off,was awoken by the buzzing of motorbikes and found myself in a skanky 
hotel/nightclub surrounded by a massive amount of helmets belonging to a 
deadly  gang.



They performed a ritual type ceremony in which they selected the new 
teenage leader based on size and strength,and then out of the back of 
the club in walks..........C, my 11 year old daughter.



She partakes in the ceremony and afterwards disappears.



I turn around and to my horror and disbelief,there she 
is........performing fellatio on the new leader.



The leader walks up to me afterwards to shake my hand on raising such a 
skilled daughter and feelings of rage,hoplessness and fear of being the 
lowest of the low overwhelm me.



I tell C  in a calm,amicable way that her beauty and femina are the most 
powerful weapons she has in a man's world which she should never give away.



"I didn't" she replied,pulling out R200 from her pocket.



Suddenly,I am awake,crying and shivering with the sickest sensation only 
described as a dad's worst nightmare.



"Give up the narcotics or face the consequences" was the clearest,most 
frightening message of the Ibogaine.



These type of hallucinations were experienced every night for the fist 4 
nights which I can recall in detail, and then a euphoria was experienced.



That was 3 weeks ago and I have absolutely no inclination to even 
entertain the thoughts of GHB or white powder.



I am finally at peace and motivated beyond reason to become a success 
story,not a statistic.



Strange thing is I am attracting such positive energy now and feel more 
confident and creative, whilst being more focussed and grounded than 
ever before.



CHAPTER 7



In conclusion,Ibogaine definitely seems like the standard for treating 
addiction over and above a very dated 12 step regime.



We are constantly evolving, and with evolution comes change.



Why go through a 6 week minimum rehabilitation program and still feel 
the fear and uncertainty of a relapse when the alternative,Ibogaine, 
offers a solution to constant cravings in a week with very little chance 
of relapse as the body is brought to a state of homeostasis relatively 
quickly, avoiding nasty withdrawal symptoms?



This is definitely a treatment for the individual who is sick  and tired 
of feeling sick and tired and really wants to return to sobriety without 
having to be taught how to deal with his/her addictive tendencies in a 
condescending and uncomfortable manner of what I consider to be a sorely 
outdated 12 step program.



Within 2-3 weeks of the Ibogaine treatment,my energy levels, motivation, 
creativity and general well being had returned to a state of normality 
and my world had changed from grey to a colourful appreciation with no 
desire to return to the dark, uncomfortable place I had been in just a 
few weeks earlier.





Beat that 12 step.


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