[Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment

Sophia Depas mssmdepas at gmail.com
Mon Jul 21 02:43:59 EDT 2008


I have got a great deal out of reading this conversation(is it called
that online?) not in relation to scoring (I couldn't resist sorry)lol.

Probably my most consistent  excuse for avoiding detox has been
related to my very strong beliefd system in regard to addiction in its
many guises. Most spexcifically that I consider an addiction to be a
symptom of a problem and not the problem itself. However, I do believe
that to a certain extent one will find the party person who went too
far and got stuck...But then there's a reaason for the party initially
isn't thetrer?
I know that I have used in the self-destructive manner that I have, in
order to survive and function adequately as a parent. I was not
parented and as my kids grew I believe my fear grew. I knew more than
the average punter about smack cuz of studying psychology. I knew it
was not initself harmful. I initially used morphine as a painkiller,
and added h when it wasn't strong enough (I have endometriosis). I
subsequently used for seven years without getting physically addicted.
And in this tikme discovered that it enabled me to fulfill my motherly
duties with gusto! I started to plan the worst housework around h
days. I never used more than 2 days, and always had a minimum gap of 3
days.  Eventually it all changed and I went downhill to my personal
pit of frustartion and inadequacy This was precipitated by a trip on
2cb which was one of the best and extreme mind expanding experience
out. And it began my dodgy journey. I'm not sure I could get through
to physical independence without ibo.
I want to finally face feeling. I wish to demonstrate this to my kids
although it's a little late! They are 15 and 18. And although I am
aware of the long post ibo road to recovery, I believe that the
initial ndecision is the most crucial factor.
I hope this isn't too off topic, or at all so...
love and happiness

soph





On 7/20/08, Matt Shriver <ibogamail at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Matt
>
>  I agree with what you say here.  What I think is not so good for the
> ibogaine movement is when someone gives one of these glowing accounts and
> people who have never been introduced to ibogaine read it and say "Oh wow is
> this stuff for real?  Where is this guy now?" only to find that he's off
> strung out somewhere.  This is what the family and friends of that person
> will see also.  But yes the results can be and are amazing sometimes, I tend
> to think miraculous is the correct word based on the fact that miracle means
> something done by God.  Whatever power it is that moves through ibogaine, it
> is deep, and wide, and primordial, and most of all powerful enough to be
> called by that term, or at least it seems so to me.  But stopping using dope
> and staying off of dope are two different things and a full time ibogaine
> experience is not practical.
>
>  One thing that I think happens is that if an addict stays clean, the issues
> that contributed to their addiction will come up, when they are no-longer
> being repressed or avoided with drugs they will resurface.  And when they do
> they can either face them and deal with them or they can attempt to ignore
> and deny them.  If they choose the later, they will in time very likely wind
> up using dope again.  Ibogaine could be used to treat the cravings probably
> for a very long time, but I think more than cravings are involved.  How
> often do addicts use dope for other reasons: its available, they're bored,
> they're having a feeling they don't want, whatever...  Cravings are only a
> part of the reason for using dope.  But I also think that ibogaine itself
> helps treat those underlying issues to some extent by bringing them to
> consciousness in a non-traumatizing way.
>
>  So boosters used to treat cravings could very well help to treat the
> underlying source of the addiction also.  But this also presumes a source
> that can be "treated", some people would say that addiction is a condition
> that cannot be cured.  From my own experience I would say both positions are
> true.  It appears that the deeper I dig into the underlying issues, the more
> issues are revealed underneath.  But the process of continually digging and
> revealing does in a way seem to affect something resembling a cure.  I have
> not had a craving to use heroin or crack or any of the other various drugs I
> abused in years.  I do however sometimes crave a change of feeling, I
> sometimes wish I could escape frustration or irritation and do so quickly.
> But even so drugs never sound like a good idea to me, they just don't, I
> can't even begin to convince myself that the results won't be the same as
> they always used to be which was just horrendous.  So my sense is that if I
> stopped doing the things I do to "treat" my addiction, if I stopped working
> on myself, that could change and drugs might start to sound like a god idea
> again.
>
>  My opinions anonymous is that the real cure or treatment for addiction is
> to develop a lifestyle that includes a process for continual
> self-examination and personal responsibility.   The details are not that
> important just that there is a process and it is fully incorporated into the
> lifestyle.
>
>  Matt.
>
>  Matthew Zielinski wrote:
>
> I think its only natural that people who had a positive, enlightening first
> ibogaine experience praise it as a life saving gift.   Sudenly they are
> overwhelmed with happines and joy without resorting to using anything to get
> there so that is a big deal.
>
> That is just a fact.  And it is an amazing fact!
>
> If and when they relapse they do it on their own accord. They have a choice
> to use or not to use.  That doesnt diminish the fact that ibogaine helped
> them tremendously in those first weeks.
>
> I think the whole ibogaine program should be revised a bit.  I think more
> emphasis should be placed on boosters and not solely on the first flood
> dose.  Only looking at my self here but without the booster doses I think I
> might have slipped again.  Now with  regualar boosters(even though I only
> had 2) I have better control over my behaviour and the way I react to
> trigers/cravings/situations.
>
> Ibogaine is an amazing tool to detox with since it elimenates most of the
> wd's  but as far as abstianance rate its not that affective.  Booster doses
> should be implemented as a part of the ibogaine program.  Regular boosters
> should be advocated as the means to help acheaive that sobriety.  Since I'm
> only speaking from personal experience and only a short time of sobriety its
> hard to establish if thats true but speaking with few people from the list
> it does seem to be the case.
>
> Happy Sunday!
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/20/08, DC in AZ <dcollier9 at cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > depends on what label you apply to yourself by your actions, a "party
> person" having a good time after work is done, and keeping a responsible
> life situation
> > where you pay your bills, and you care about others is one case...
> >
> > or one can label themself an "addict" where your fun is now causing you to
> not be responsible, and you dont care about anyone, even yourself,
> > and so on.
> >
> > the drug being used properly or abused - is only a small part of the
> personality defects, or virtues being addressed (or ignored).
> >
> > but just so fun-loving people know that they may use drugs without being
> "an addiction" problem person with deep issues. that is not addressed by NA,
> > or so I have heard.
> >
> > imo.
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Donzo
> > "Love converts hearts, and gives peace."
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Matt Shriver
> > To: The Ibogaine List
> > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:26 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: The Evolution of Addiction Treatment
> >
> >   I had similar reactions to Douglas.  I had thought about responding to
> this before but never got around to it.  I think the author over-stresses
> the "miracle cure" angle to ibogaine which I don't think is entirely
> helpful.  I will be the first to admit that there is more than just a grain
> of truth to that perspective but it is not the whole story.  From what I
> have seen on this list and in myself, those who get the amazing, ecstatic,
> miraculously delivered from the throes of addiction experience, those are
> the ones most likely to write something like this, but if they do not follow
> it up with any additional effort, then more often then not they wind up
> using again.  And that pattern is I think not helpful for ibogaine.  The
> grain of truth is in the fact that people actually do have these
> experiences, I have myself.  But the whole truth is that if nothing else
> changes, then in the long run, nothing at all changes and they wind up right
> back where they started.
> >
> > NA is one way that many people find freedom from drug addiction but it is
> not the only way. I think that people who are overly judgmental of it are
> really dealing with their own internal issues that they are projecting onto
> NA.  I will be the last to claim that NA is without it's problems.  But it's
> more or less like say for instance the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day
> Saints, the Mormons.  How many people go around with a resentment against
> the Mormons, probably not a lot.  But just as with NA the tendency is to
> view the whole organization based on the interactions you have with any of
> it's members.  And these people will ring your doorbell and interrupt
> whatever it is you are doing to try and sell you literature about a religion
> you are probably not even interested in.  Some of them are pushy.  Some of
> them are totally cool.  In my experience they are all very polite (other
> than sometimes being overly persistent or just generally bothersome like
> when different ones come by 3 days apart, c'mon I already told the last guys
> I wasn't interested).  But my point is that if you go away from these
> interactions with a resentment about the the Mormons in general than that is
> really about you, not the Mormons.  And it seems like there are a lot of
> addicts running around with 12-step resentment.  If it's not for you then
> cool, don't go.  But if you go around dissing on it you may well be denying
> someone else access to the very method that would work best for them to gain
> freedom from drug addiction.  Hundreds of thousands have found help in NA
> and if you include AA then you can change that number to millions.
> >
> > But just to get back to Douglas' point, addiction doesn't happen in a
> vacuum.  There are associated behaviors, thought patterns, habits, and
> tendencies that all support continuing in that lifestyle.  These things must
> be dealt with and these things are usually already present prior to drug
> addiction so simply returning to the pre-drug taking life is not exactly
> realistic.  If all you remove is the physical and psychological addiction to
> a specific substance you have essentially only treated the manifestations of
> the issue, not the actual issue itself.  However you want to talk about
> addiction and in whatever terms, most people would agree that it is more
> than simply the repeated use of a substance.  That is the most obvious
> outward manifestation but many personality traits and behaviors seemingly
> unrelated to the drug use are also shared among addicts to say nothing of
> people who manifest addictive behaviors around activities like gambling that
> have nothing at all to do with consuming mind altering substances.  Whatever
> it is that leads people into a situation where they become dependent on the
> repeated use of a drug, simply removing the drug from the over-all picture
> does not actually impact on that thing.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > Douglas Fraser wrote:
> > hrm.... I had a khat plant while I was living in Vancouver. Never really
> > used it b/c it was of the weak variety, but it's a nice plant.... and of
> > course, I was not refining the chemical to excess a la coca and
> cocaine....
> > but speed freaks are .. freaks and that sort of applies to our
> > overcaffeinated Western culture. And of course, it's always easier to
> > blame the chemicals than one's life and how one's living it and not
> > acknowledging one's problems
> >
> > To be honest, what bugs me about this story is that the author does not
> > ever seem to acknowledge the chemicals were just tools for him to escape
> > his issues - it's like he never had any issues and then one day, poof!
> > he's an addict. maybe it's just my projections... and the way he writes.
> > Then he imparts such power to ibogaine.. or seems to. This is a subtle
> > point, but it's a crucial one. Ibogaine can be considered to have
> > something of a "cult" surrounding it, much like ayahuasca does, and if we
> > (society) can deal with those projections in an honest manner, then we
> > won't be faced with the trouble that acid and MDMA had to deal with (the
> > hysteria, the bans, etc). then again, I'm an idealist....
> >
> > doug
> >
> > Kevin Walker wrote:
> >
> >
> > To The List.
> >
> > A patient forward this attachment and asked me please to publish it on
> > Mindvox for him!
> >
> > Regards
> > Kevin
> > THE EVOLUTION OF ADDICTION TREATMENT- By Bareman 12
> > July 2008
> >
> > CHAPTER 1
> >
> > "Try some of this." smiled Dean, handing my wife and I a small piece of
> > paper with some white powder in the centre.
> >
> >
> >
> > "It's called cut or cat and is a chemical version of the plant ,cut,
> > used to enhance energy and concentration,much like a herbal version of
> > cocaine."
> >
> >
> >
> > 15 minutes later we were driving to our magnificent , fully paid for
> > house, with our music studio, one of the finest and most magical in the
> > country.
> >
> >
> >
> > We were feeling motivated, on top of the world,energetic beyond belief
> > and excited about the prospects of life.
> >
> >
> >
> > That powder sure had a kick to it, a kick that we would later be
> > directed toward my manhood.
> >
> >
> >
> > CHAPTER 2
> >
> >
> >
> > Half an hour after arriving home and working passionately on a new song,
> > we felt the need for a little more of the magic powder.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Hey Dean, got any more cat?"
> >
> >
> >
> > "Sure, I make the stuff,but it's rather expensive to produce so I sell
> > it to my friends at 150 a gram."
> >
> >
> >
> > "I"m coming back,give me 2."
> >
> >
> >
> > I walked upstairs to our safe where we had about 100 00 rand in cash,
> > and took a mere 300 for Dean.
> >
> >
> >
> > See, I figured for 300 rand we were so prolific and energetic that we
> > could do 2 days work in one, so why not?
> >
> >
> >
> > We had tried Ritalin before and cat was like it's big brother in so far
> > as focus and energy was concerned.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dean told me it was based on a naturally occurring herb, so what was the
> > harm?
> >
> >
> >
> > CHAPTER 3
> >
> >
> >
> > We finished working in the early hours of the morning, sustaining our
> > energies by topping up with another line every half hour or so,and let's
> > just say making love was explosive to say the least. Bonus.
> >
> >
> >
> > Now as for our sleep life, the birds were chirping,the sun was rising
> > and we had no intentions of entertaining the notion of alpha/beta states
> > as we had to get our daughter ready for school.
> >
> >
> >
> > Lucky we still had some left which we hastily finished. Fantastic, it
> > felt like we had just had a good ten hours of slumber and were ready for
> > another exciting day.
> >
> >
> >
> > CHAPTER 4
> >
> >
> >
> > After taking C to school, I popped into Dean's place with some more cash
> > from the safe.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Give me 5 grams, I don't want to run out."
> >
> >
> >
> > That day we went to our doctor complaining of insomnia. He obliged by
> > giving us a script for sleeping tablets.
> >
> >
> >
> > We were set.
> >
> >
> >
> > CHAPTER 5
> >
> >
> >
> > Three years later:
> >
> >
> >
> > We had invested in a house in an exclusive suburb which we were letting
> > out on the basis that the tenants rent would pay the mortgage.
> >
> >
> >
> > Our tenants were moving out and we thought this the ideal opportunity to
> > move in and start a drug free life as the novelty had worn off and we
> > weren't feeling great anymore.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dean had quit so we were getting from another supplier.
> >
> >
> >
> > I will never forget the day 5 year old C walked into the studio and said
> > "You know what,dad? Taking drugs is like taking a brand new house and
> > the more drugs you take,the older and dirtier the house gets until it
> > turns into a dirty old cottage..................that's
> why you and mom
> > want to move to Dainfern."
> >
> >
> >
> > She was sharp,real sharp.
> >
> >
> >
> > CHAPTER 6
> >
> >
> >
> > Eight years after our first encounter:
> >
> >
> >
> > Here I sit, a divorced,lonely,broken,drug dependent 40 year old man.
> >
> >
> >
> > All my accumulated wealth gone due to irrational investment,giving half
> > of it away and my 2 designer drugs of choice,Gamma Hydroxy Buturate and
> > Meth-cathanone (cat)consuming the rest.
> >
> >
> >
> > No house,no studio,no friends,no family,no clients only the
> > uncomfortable cravings.
> >
> >
> >
> > I had been to a 12 step conventional rehab a few years earlier and had
> > lasted 5 days.
> >
> >
> >
> > Then my ex told me about Ibogaine, a naturally occurring hallucinogenic
> > plant derivative used by the Ubuntu tribe during ceremonials,which was
> > accidently found to stop cravings for heroin and other substances
> > without withdrawals.
> >
> >
> >
> > See, a conventional 6 week rehab program teaches you how to deal with
> > the cravings, whereas Ibogaine nullifies the cravings without the much
> > feared withdrawals.
> >
> >
> >
> > Don't get me wrong,Ibogaine is a tough route to take and the first 4
> > days were filled with hallucinations and ataxia (partial loss of control
> > of the limbs.), but worth every second.
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is part of an email I sent my friend pertaining to one
> > hallucination I experienced:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The process was uncomfortable and time passed slowly as the plant worked
> > its way through my brain "reformatting" my hard drive.
> >
> >
> >
> > It is a hallucinogenic and makes you very aware on an introspective as
> > well as a spiritual level.
> >
> >
> >
> > Day one and I started hearing ancient chanting which grew louder at
> > night,especially before sleep where my adventures would begin.
> >
> >
> >
> > I heard a digeridoo type buzzing sound surrounding me and,as I dozed
> > off,was awoken by the buzzing of motorbikes and found myself in a skanky
> > hotel/nightclub surrounded by a massive amount of helmets belonging to a
> > deadly gang.
> >
> >
> >
> > They performed a ritual type ceremony in which they selected the new
> > teenage leader based on size and strength,and then out of the back of
> > the club in walks..........C, my 11 year old daughter.
> >
> >
> >
> > She partakes in the ceremony and afterwards disappears.
> >
> >
> >
> > I turn around and to my horror and disbelief,there she
> > is........performing fellatio on the new leader.
> >
> >
> >
> > The leader walks up to me afterwards to shake my hand on raising such a
> > skilled daughter and feelings of rage,hoplessness and fear of being the
> > lowest of the low overwhelm me.
> >
> >
> >
> > I tell C in a calm,amicable way that her beauty and femina are the most
> > powerful weapons she has in a man's world which she should never give
> away.
> >
> >
> >
> > "I didn't" she replied,pulling out R200 from her pocket.
> >
> >
> >
> > Suddenly,I am awake,crying and shivering with the sickest sensation only
> > described as a dad's worst nightmare.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Give up the narcotics or face the consequences" was the clearest,most
> > frightening message of the Ibogaine.
> >
> >
> >
> > These type of hallucinations were experienced every night for the fist 4
> > nights which I can recall in detail, and then a euphoria was experienced.
> >
> >
> >
> > That was 3 weeks ago and I have absolutely no inclination to even
> > entertain the thoughts of GHB or white powder.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am finally at peace and motivated beyond reason to become a success
> > story,not a statistic.
> >
> >
> >
> > Strange thing is I am attracting such positive energy now and feel more
> > confident and creative, whilst being more focussed and grounded than
> > ever before.
> >
> >
> >
> > CHAPTER 7
> >
> >
> >
> > In conclusion,Ibogaine definitely seems like the standard for treating
> > addiction over and above a very dated 12 step regime.
> >
> >
> >
> > We are constantly evolving, and with evolution comes change.
> >
> >
> >
> > Why go through a 6 week minimum rehabilitation program and still feel
> > the fear and uncertainty of a relapse when the alternative,Ibogaine,
> > offers a solution to constant cravings in a week with very little chance
> > of relapse as the body is brought to a state of homeostasis relatively
> > quickly, avoiding nasty withdrawal symptoms?
> >
> >
> >
> > This is definitely a treatment for the individual who is sick and tired
> > of feeling sick and tired and really wants to return to sobriety without
> > having to be taught how to deal with his/her addictive tendencies in a
> > condescending and uncomfortable manner of what I consider to be a sorely
> > outdated 12 step program.
> >
> >
> >
> > Within 2-3 weeks of the Ibogaine treatment,my energy levels, motivation,
> > creativity and general well being had returned to a state of normality
> > and my world had changed from grey to a colourful appreciation with no
> > desire to return to the dark, uncomfortable place I had been in just a
> > few weeks earlier.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Beat that 12 step.
> >
> >
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