[Ibogaine] FW: Small, well-designed trial of ibogaine for opiate detox

simon loxton simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk
Wed Feb 20 15:24:51 EST 2008


Hi Nick
When I tell people about the Chinese doctors only getting paid when the patient was well they think I am kidding. What sparked my comment among other things was a time I remember I was in London; and as you know you can volunteer for drug testing in its "so  called" final stages. This particular drug was some sort of heart medication and within I think half an hour there were serious symptoms or adverse side effects. I cant remember all the details now but it was shut up pretty quickly. So so much for trusting in the Pharma. I mean where did medicine start? The only recent discovery is penicillin the rest is experimental which may be a broad statement but what the hell.
Simon


----- Original Message ----
From: Nick Sandberg <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk>
To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 20 February, 2008 8:50:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FW: Small, well-designed trial of ibogaine for opiate detox


Well, there are moves to get rid of non-Western approved medications in the EU. The pharm business is about as murky as it gets, in my experience. It’s really darkness visible, devil-worshipping stuff. The idea is that you need to demonstrate empirically that a medication is effective, or it gets hard to sell it. Problem is that many medicines work more subtly and through channels western science can’t understand and thus disputes even exist.
Relating to Chinese medicine, back in the day doctors over there used to get paid by patients who stayed well, not when you were sick. It gave the docs an incentive to keep you healthy. Nowadays in the West it’s the polar opposite. Currently 11% of American women are on anti-depressant meds. It’s lunacy. You go to the doctors for anything and any suspicion of depression and you’re on some ssri. For years, or for life. Sheer madness. DSMIV now has even more categories of depression, seemingly just so more and more people can be prescribed anti-depressants – drugs which make the pharm business a living fortune. Like I say, the whole thing is corruption incarnate. </rant!>
Nick
 
 
 



From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com] On Behalf Of simon loxton
Sent: 20 February 2008 18:02
To: The Ibogaine List
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FW: Small,well-designed trial of ibogaine for opiate detox
 
This whole "debate" makes me wonder how we are still alive today without the pharmaceutical companies being there to make sure the medicines were effective and safe to take. Just a thought: has Chinese medicine ever been questioned as to its safety or efficacy because it has not gone through the processes these companies would need to deem them to be "safe" or "effective"?I would think that we have had far more extremely dangerous and unexpected side effects from drug companies failed concoctions than from natural medicines that have been used for hundreds of years; duh. 
 
----- Original Message ----
From: Nick Sandberg <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk>
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 20 February, 2008 5:29:27 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: Small, well-designed trial of ibogaine for opiate detox
More correspondence with Alex. There are 2 threads now
Nick



From: Alex Wodak [mailto:awodak at stvincents.com.au] 
Sent: 19 February 2008 23:02
To: Nick Sandberg
Subject: RE: Small, well-designed trial of ibogaine for opiate detox
 
Dear Nick,
 
Ibogaine is only one of many drugs for many different conditions championed by people outside the pharmaceutical industry 
 
Some of these drugs may be effective 
 
Some of these drugs will be ineffective 
 
Some of these drugs may be safe
 
Some of these drugs will be unsafe
 
We have learnt from bitter experience that the pharmaceutical industry is not to be trusted to market effective and safe drugs unless it is regulated closely
 
A fundamental principle of medicine in 'first do no harm'
 
We have also learnt from bitter experience that well meaning people who champion drugs of unknown efficacy and safety get infiltrated by not so well meaning snake oil salesmen 
 
I have no problem accepting that the world of science and due scientific process is imperfect but less harmful than all other frameworks 
 
So I stand by every word in my Abstract which you lacerated
 
Nothing you have said to me has been borne out 
 
Ibogaine as a treatment for heroin dependence should be assumed to be ineffective and unsafe until evidence emerges to revise that judgment
 
So far, that evidence has not emerged
 
best wishes, 
 
Alex
 
 
 
 
 
Dr. Alex Wodak,
Director, Alcohol and Drug Service,
St. Vincent 's Hospital, 
Darlinghurst, NSW, 2010,
AUSTRALIA
 
Telephone: (61+02) 9361 8012
If no prompt answer, try 9361 8014
Facsimile: (61+02) 8382 4738
awodak at stvincents.com.au
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 
From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227 at tiscali.co.uk] 
Sent: 20 February 2008 12:44
To: 'Alex Wodak'
Subject: RE: Small, well-designed trial of ibogaine for opiate detox
 
Dear Alex,
All I am doing with ibogaine is pushing for more awareness and scientific trials. The drug will inevitably continue to be used by hundreds of people seeking detox anyway. As point of fact I’ve been by far the most vocal opponent of casual ibogaine treatment for years, but the reality is that thousands of people are seeking help and the pharm business is utterly uninterested. It couldn’t give a fuck, basically.
As to accusing you….I have accused you of manipulation. I stand by that. I may have accused you of not caring. I retract that accusation, if I made it. I read some of your papers on the net and I think you have done great work. 
When I look at your abstract I really have to wonder just who you think you’re actually debating with, in the upcoming conference. Are you just trying to push energy out at ibogaine proponents because you don’t like some individual or the way they do things? Because that’s what it seems like. Have you witnessed an ibogaine treatment? Have you spoken with people who’ve used the drug to come off? Have you actually done any face-to-face research? Have you really talked to people? Because it doesn’t feel to me like you’ve done any of this stuff. You’re simply criticizing the lack of academic evidence when every serious minded researcher totally knows this because they’ve been dealing with the reality of it for years. I certainly have. I believe in ibogaine because I’ve witnessed treatments, and I’ve followed up people who’ve taken the drug, hundreds of them. You are just parroting off some lecture that everyone knows anyhow. It’s a
 drag, basically. I would like you to look.
Nick
 
***


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