[Ibogaine] FW: Small, well-designed trial of ibogaine for opiate detox

Nick Sandberg nick227 at tiscali.co.uk
Wed Feb 20 13:50:20 EST 2008

Well, there are moves to get rid of non-Western approved medications in the
EU. The pharm business is about as murky as it gets, in my experience. It's
really darkness visible, devil-worshipping stuff. The idea is that you need
to demonstrate empirically that a medication is effective, or it gets hard
to sell it. Problem is that many medicines work more subtly and through
channels western science can't understand and thus disputes even exist.

Relating to Chinese medicine, back in the day doctors over there used to get
paid by patients who stayed well, not when you were sick. It gave the docs
an incentive to keep you healthy. Nowadays in the West it's the polar
opposite. Currently 11% of American women are on anti-depressant meds. It's
lunacy. You go to the doctors for anything and any suspicion of depression
and you're on some ssri. For years, or for life. Sheer madness. DSMIV now
has even more categories of depression, seemingly just so more and more
people can be prescribed anti-depressants - drugs which make the pharm
business a living fortune. Like I say, the whole thing is corruption
incarnate. </rant!>






From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com] On
Behalf Of simon loxton
Sent: 20 February 2008 18:02
To: The Ibogaine List
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] FW: Small,well-designed trial of ibogaine for opiate


This whole "debate" makes me wonder how we are still alive today without the
pharmaceutical companies being there to make sure the medicines were
effective and safe to take. Just a thought: has Chinese medicine ever been
questioned as to its safety or efficacy because it has not gone through the
processes these companies would need to deem them to be "safe" or
"effective"?I would think that we have had far more extremely dangerous and
unexpected side effects from drug companies failed concoctions than from
natural medicines that have been used for hundreds of years; duh. 


----- Original Message ----
From: Nick Sandberg <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk>
To: Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 20 February, 2008 5:29:27 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] FW: Small, well-designed trial of ibogaine for opiate

More correspondence with Alex. There are 2 threads now



From: Alex Wodak [mailto:awodak at stvincents.com.au] 
Sent: 19 February 2008 23:02
To: Nick Sandberg
Subject: RE: Small, well-designed trial of ibogaine for opiate detox


Dear Nick,


Ibogaine is only one of many drugs for many different conditions championed
by people outside the pharmaceutical industry 


Some of these drugs may be effective 


Some of these drugs will be ineffective 


Some of these drugs may be safe


Some of these drugs will be unsafe


We have learnt from bitter experience that the pharmaceutical industry is
not to be trusted to market effective and safe drugs unless it is regulated


A fundamental principle of medicine in 'first do no harm'


We have also learnt from bitter experience that well meaning people who
champion drugs of unknown efficacy and safety get infiltrated by not so well
meaning snake oil salesmen 


I have no problem accepting that the world of science and due scientific
process is imperfect but less harmful than all other frameworks 


So I stand by every word in my Abstract which you lacerated


Nothing you have said to me has been borne out 


Ibogaine as a treatment for heroin dependence should be assumed to be
ineffective and unsafe until evidence emerges to revise that judgment


So far, that evidence has not emerged


best wishes, 








Dr. Alex Wodak,
Director, Alcohol and Drug Service,
St. Vincent 's Hospital, 
Darlinghurst, NSW, 2010,


Telephone: (61+02) 9361 8012
If no prompt answer, try 9361 8014
Facsimile: (61+02) 8382 4738
awodak at stvincents.com.au



From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227 at tiscali.co.uk] 
Sent: 20 February 2008 12:44
To: 'Alex Wodak'
Subject: RE: Small, well-designed trial of ibogaine for opiate detox


Dear Alex,

All I am doing with ibogaine is pushing for more awareness and scientific
trials. The drug will inevitably continue to be used by hundreds of people
seeking detox anyway. As point of fact I've been by far the most vocal
opponent of casual ibogaine treatment for years, but the reality is that
thousands of people are seeking help and the pharm business is utterly
uninterested. It couldn't give a fuck, basically.

As to accusing you..I have accused you of manipulation. I stand by that. I
may have accused you of not caring. I retract that accusation, if I made it.
I read some of your papers on the net and I think you have done great work. 

When I look at your abstract I really have to wonder just who you think
you're actually debating with, in the upcoming conference. Are you just
trying to push energy out at ibogaine proponents because you don't like some
individual or the way they do things? Because that's what it seems like.
Have you witnessed an ibogaine treatment? Have you spoken with people who've
used the drug to come off? Have you actually done any face-to-face research?
Have you really talked to people? Because it doesn't feel to me like you've
done any of this stuff. You're simply criticizing the lack of academic
evidence when every serious minded researcher totally knows this because
they've been dealing with the reality of it for years. I certainly have. I
believe in ibogaine because I've witnessed treatments, and I've followed up
people who've taken the drug, hundreds of them. You are just parroting off
some lecture that everyone knows anyhow. It's a drag, basically. I would
like you to look.




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