[Ibogaine] Ibogaine Conferences - where's the Bwiti ?

DC in AZ dcollier9 at cox.net
Fri Feb 15 10:41:57 EST 2008


am I missing something or are there any Bwiti Masters that have Iboga knowledge to share, doing any Ibogaine-or-related conference sessions ?

It would be even better if one of the combo Catholic-Bwiti Masters were also presenting, to cover even more topics.

imo: as for Dana making presentations, I think he should continue to do so, and just be himself, since
we need to think outside the box to solve these/any tough issues. Besides, he could attract badly-needed publicity since he speaks the truth, there could be trouble.

God Bless Us.
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Donzo
"Love converts hearts, and gives peace."
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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dana Beal 
  To: The Ibogaine List 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Barcelona Ibogaine sessionsetforInternationalHarmReduction Conference


  How convenient. It's not about efficacy, or the deletion of the GDNF information. It's just Dana acting like a loon, again.


  Even half dead from fatigue from the ride to New Orleans, I know way more about the science of ibogaine than Alex Wodak.


  And you'll be happy to know Ken Alper's new powerpoint is so good, that I can cut my presentation in D.C. down to just the GDNF part.


  If you attend, you're perfectly willing to ask me that question that leaves me stumped. But Ken's on the panel, so he'll just answer it. If he had been willing to go to New Orleans or Barcelona, there would be no need for me to have developed my presentation. But this trip to D.C. is a first for him. Previously he was unwilling to do anything outside New York City.


  You're always free to organize your own ibogaine forum, and book any one you please. My bona fides are that I remember all the stages of the evolution of our understanding of ibogaine, and how to explain them terms lay folks can understand. If you don't want me on one of the panels of your conference, fine. Just don't put me on, and then kick me off.


  I strongly suspect that Stijn, the INPUD organizer, was not the one behind the decision to put Wodak on the panel in the first place, just as my removal was not unrelated to the need of conference higher-ups to find a slot for Perez Alonso. There's only so much time in two hours.


  Dana/cnw


  On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:40 AM, Eric Madison wrote:



    I think there are two issues happening here. Alex Wodak's presentation is heavily biased based only on his introductory paragraph, I can't imagine it gets any better from there.

    The other issue is a personal one for you Dana. You got banned from a panel you were previously part of. For some reason I don't think that's because they couldn't handle the truth, its far more likely that you really pissed someone off who then threw you off the panel for acting like a loonie. Having you not present on a scientific topic isn't something that makes the world a worse place. 

    There are a lot of people associated with ibogaine who are neither PHDs or MDs who do present on science (Howard Lotsof, Patrick Kroupa, Jon Freedlander), but when listening to them speak I believe they know what they're talking about. On the other end of the board is you. Your "scientific" and "medical" presentations are sloppy, borderline incoherent. If there is anybody in that audience with even a basic scientific background and they question you about anything you're talking about, you're dead. You're not going to be able to give an answer that makes sense. I don't think this is something the world needs to mourn. Your "scientific" presentations are really not helping the ibogaine movement. Despite the fact that you insist on booking yourself talking about science at all these ibogaine conferences that you fund and despite the fact that all of these HRC and DPA panels run by Lotsof or Kroupa, place you on them and then let you talk about god knows what, it doesn't make you an effective speaker on scientific or medical aspects of ibogaine. 

    I remember you from the HRC conference in New Orleans in 2004, screaming your head off at Dr. Peter Cohen and threatening to punch him because you disagreed with him. Maybe the problem is you, not some committee being unable to handle the truth.

    Do you honestly think you understand even half of what you're talking about?

    I've heard you talk on other aspects of ibogaine and you do a good job, I don't understand why it's so important to you to keep presenting about areas you don't understand or effectively communicate to anybody else.



    On Feb 12, 2008 10:16 AM, Dana Beal <dana at phantom.com> wrote:

      Yeah, but the point is that none of the other presentations speak to efficacy, or present on GDNF. The information that would contradict Wodak has been replace by his general observations on clinical trials, which are not specific to ibogaine, and that is disingenuous.


      Dana/cnw


      On Feb 12, 2008, at 6:45 AM, Nick Sandberg wrote:


        Hi again Dana,



        Checking out a bit more, I see that there are 4 speakers and only one is skeptic. I've written to Alex and cc'ed to Gerry, the UK head of IHRA, saying I find it reprehensible that he compares ibogaine to thalidomide, but I would consider it fair to have one skeptic in discussions also. My mail copied below.



        Nick







        ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////



        Dear Alex,



        I wanted to get in touch with you as I was quite concerned by the précis of your proposed talk at the upcoming Barcelona Harm Reduction Conference, which I've copied below….





        Since the tragic experience of thalidomide some decades ago, medicine has been based firmly on scientific evidence. All interventions are assumed to be ineffective, unsafe and cost-ineffective until proven otherwise. Harm reduction is also based firmly on scientific evidence while conventional drug policy relying heavily on supply control has a weak committment to evidence. Theoretical justifications for interventions are of interest but they are no substitute for rigorous scientific evidence of effectiveness, safety and cost-effectiveness. For example, oral naltrexone has been strongly advocated by critics of harm reduction as a treatment for heroin dependence on the basis of attractive theory. However, empirical studies showed that clearly naltrexone is ineffective, unsafe and cost-ineffective as a treatment for heroin dependence. Published evidence for Ibogaine as a treatment for heroin dependence is unimpressive. Persistent and sincere advocacy for ibogaine is no substitute for rigorous evidence. 'Evidence' means several rigorous scientific trials published in reputable peer-reviewed scientific journals demonstrating major benefits consistently and in the absence of unacceptable side effects. Evidence of effectiveness preferably (but not necessarily) requires randomised controlled trials where this is possible. 'Evidence' is not a strong theoretical rationale. Advocates for Ibogaine and harm reduction clinicians and scientists will be brought closer together when all agree that all prevention and treatment interventions have to be based on rigorous scientific evidence of effectiveness, safety and cost-effectiveness.





        It seemed to me completely misrepresentative of the drug and I felt strongly to get in touch with you and try and see where you were actually coming from. I have been involved with ibogaine in the UK for the past 10 years, running the website www.ibogaine.co.uk. I mention here that I do not sell ibogaine, I do not treat people, and I have no financial stake in the drug whatsoever. I set up and maintained the site for nearly a decade because I was concerned about the plight of addicts and saw first-hand just how incredible this treatment was. I am currently the manager of a leading new-age community in Dorset, England and I am trained and qualified as a Humaniversity Therapist, a humanistic psychology school that run a Therapeutic Community, working directly with addiction, based in Holland.



        Now, to be honest, I find the opening sentence of this précis to be utterly manipulative. I find it hard to believe that someone who had any concern for truth or for the treatment of addiction could make such a misleading comparison. If you have a strong argument it will stand up without resorting to such manipulative techniques. As to the argument itself, I find it only fair that, whilst making the statements you do, you also accurately articulate the means by which new drugs are assessed and come to the market. I say this because when this is done the truth of the situation becomes a great deal more clear. For sure, be sceptical. I've no problem with it, but please at least do some basic research and represent the points fairly.



        As point of fact, there have been proper scientific studies of ibogaine. They have given a preliminary demonstration of the drug's safety and efficacy. There certainly need to be more studies, but the issues that have blocked them taking place thus far are not related to the drug's effectiveness. The studies that have been done have taken place without the financial backing of the Pharm business. They have been financed by private money. Ibogaine has been so disregarded by the State and by the Pharm houses that it is, in my opinion, nothing short of miraculous that the work that has been carried out has happened at all. It has happened for the sole reason that the drug's effects are so positive and so stunning that people just get involved. In a political climate where big business effectively completely controls the development of new medications, that so much work has been done with ibogaine should be applauded, not subjected to manipulative sermonizing. 



        Ibogaine is not going to go away. If it was it would have done so years ago. The reason for this is that it only takes one treatment for people to actually see for themselves just how remarkable this drug is. People get on board. They often just drop what they're doing and get on board. Dr Ken Alper, an associate professor of psychiatry at the NY School of Medicine, recently published an academic survey of clinical and non-clinical ibogaine treatments, covering many thousands of sessions. In the background there are more and more moves to bring psychoactives to the market. Clinical trials are currently going on with MDMA, LSD and Psilocybin. MAPS are financing more studies with ibogaine, again work which hasn't been sanctioned by big business. Ibogaine will get legal eventually. I have personally no doubt about this. 



        I urge you to re-think your talk. For sure present the issues, but please do it fairly. It's awful to see people who are in theory trying to do good for addicts stoop to such manipulation, and absurd to think any good will come of it.



        Kind regards



        Nick Sandberg

        Thorngrove House, etc





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