[Ibogaine] Charles/methadone detox

Charles Rossouw charles at ibogainesa.co.za
Sat Sep 22 10:12:43 EDT 2007


Hi Kirk

I have often wondered how much value can be attached to the visonary part myself.  The reason why I wonder, is that we have had people who experienced the visionary part vividly, and failed, and we have had people who experienced very little visions or can't remember anything, and were successful to stop their habit over a long term.  We have experienced this with people on uppers and on downers, so there's no pattern that can explain it.

As for the self-awareness value, I believe the visions are very important (after taking Ibogaine myself nearly four years ago), but maybe some people choose to ignore this, or they feel indifferent to what they see in themselves while using drugs, and then fall back.  Because I don't understand this, it doesn't mean that I am discrediting the visionary part in the overall success of the Ibogaine experience at all - all I'm trying to say here is that you don't need to feel cheated by not having the ballistic visions that some people report after Ibogaine.  After all - you can do it again if you want to.  

Kind regards

Charles
_____________________________________
NHP / Dr Charles Rossouw  (Reg no 5806430)
NHP / Dr Kevin Walker (Reg no 6206429)

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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Capt Kirk 
  To: The Ibogaine List 
  Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 1:07 PM
  Subject: [Ibogaine] Charles/methadone detox


  Heya Charles!
  Good to hear from ya...
  I do realise it's longer to come off Methadone than other shorter acting drugs.... with Ibogaine, I wonder how important the full on flood dose is to the ultimate effect of ibogaine... thus perhaps flood then maintenance via booster?  I feel I somehow missed that ultimate flood by being stepped for as long as I was........and in saying this I have no bad feeling to how I was treated with ibogaine in fact I would have been curious to see how long I could have gone being step dosed (as was eric lol) I could have been a great hamster!!  Mind you I also uknowingly had cancer so lordy knows how that affected the process......!!??
  I guess personally I feel I missed something because I didn't experience the visionary stage......just my perspective!!
  hugs kirk xxx


   
  ----- Original Message ----
  From: Charles Rossouw <charles at ibogainesa.co.za>
  To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
  Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 10:33:49 PM
  Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] simon/methadone detox


  Hi Captain

  We have also had experience with Methadone, and have found that treatment over a period of time works better for long-term methadone (and also for buprenorphine) users.  Whether it is best to step-dose before or to give maintenance doses after the initial "Flood", I cannot say.  We give a "flood" dose at the start and then follow with small maintenance daily doses, or other supportive measures (if the patient doesn't feel like taking more Ibogaine) at the moment.  We have in the past even allowed patients to have a second "full" treatment after two weeks, and we are inclined to go that route these days for the long acting opiates.

  What I can say, is that direct support in a controlled situation is of paramount importance, as you stated.  We have seen withdrawals (measured objectively) from methadone after Ibogaine for up to 10 days, and for buprenorphine for up to 21 days. I can just imagine that a person can be discouraged very easily, taking into account the residual side-effects from the Ibogaine (Especially sleeplesness and slight depression) if the patient has to deal with real withdrawals also for this period, without support, in a free environment.  By support I mean pshychological and physical support, meaning counseling, good diet, appropriate medication, alternative therapies, etc.  And this support (again you are right) should be there until it is no longer needed, which differs from person to person.

  Kind regards

  Charles
  _____________________________________
  NHP / Dr Charles Rossouw  (Reg no 5806430)
  NHP / Dr Kevin Walker (Reg no 6206429)

  Disclaimer and Confidentiality Note:
  This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which
  it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged,
  confidential and exempt from exposure under applicable law.   If the reader
  of this message is not the sole authorised recipient you are hereby
  notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of the
  communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this in error
  please destroy immediately. Whilst suitable precautions against virus
  transmittal are taken by IBOGAINE HOLDINGS SA (Pty)  Ltd (and associated companies) we
  cannot accept any responsibility for viruses or their consequences.
  3 Harry van Wyk Ave
  Norkem Park
  Kempton Park
  1618
  Cell:+27 82 305 9304
  www.ibogainesa.co.za
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Capt Kirk 
    To: The Ibogaine List 
    Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 12:00 PM
    Subject: [Ibogaine] simon/methadone detox


    This is an area that does need discussion I feel............whether the step dosing method is better than the test/flood dose method I don't know I'm no expert I only know from what I experienced.... and I will never know for sure what would have been best.........but I feel I missed the ultimate flood from being step dosed for so long.   Learn learn learn.
    I was only on 30 mg per day, I had my last dose on a wed lunchtime and didn't feel any withdrawal until the friday evening.......we finally did the flood on the sunday night.  
    And you are absolutely right, each person is going to require something different as we all react differently, and ibogaine is one helluva ride... the first day after the flood if it hadn't been for my provider I may very well have freaked out and given up, that was the roughest part of it all.  Support in those early times is so essential.


    ----- Original Message ----
    From: simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk>
    To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
    Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 9:51:16 PM
    Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Detox or Die


    And how long between your last dose of methadone and your dose of ibogaine Matt? This just confirms that you can use a single dose regimen for methadone though some argue that it should be done over 3 days some say to a week. I prefer a single dose and a booster if needed. This is just me though I am not saying there is only one way or one is wrong and one is right. The outcome is the most important and for me that the patient is as comfortable as possible and knows what is happening all the time and that they receive explanations for what is being done. This is just me as I said.


    ----- Original Message ----
    From: Matthew Shriver <Matt at ITSupport.net>
    To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
    Sent: Saturday, 22 September, 2007 5:16:49 AM
    Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Detox or Die


    I came off of 74mg/day methadone with a single hcl dose of about 22-23 mg/kg.  I had no boosters and it was not very uncomfortable (in terms of withdrawal anyway).  That was over 4 years ago and I have never looked back.  Just my experience though, everyone’s a little different.



    Matt




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    From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com] On Behalf Of Pero Ki
    Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 9:06 PM
    To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
    Subject: [Ibogaine] Detox or Die





    I recently viewed this documentary & found it very compelling as I'm attempting to overcome the various difficulties (mainly $$) to get free from 'evildone'. Firstly does anyone know if this doco' is available on-line. Second, I thought it relevant to the current discussion/argument(!?) as he was coming off methadone and appeared to be taking the bark powder, tester then initiatory dose, afterwards he worried it hadn't worked as he felt withdrawal. In the voice-over he said that the symptoms passed quite quickly (relatively) then it cuts to much later and he's fine and 'cured'. Yet from this mailing list I'm finding it quite difficult to see a consensus on dose/s or a clear picture of what to expect. I have people more knowledgeable than myself to help me do this, but as someone said earlier- it's important to know for yourself what you're doing and in for, or just to make such a big move in the first place. I'm sure if there are others in my position out there, this is the stuff they want to know & importantly, that they can trust.


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