From gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 05:08:24 2007
From: gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com (Melanie Gutierrez)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 02:08:24 -0700
Subject: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
In-Reply-To: <4c90d90709301348s2c15502vaac91418477d86da@mail.gmail.com>
References: <193156.54748.qm@web27601.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4c90d90709301348s2c15502vaac91418477d86da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5e5515970710010208g6feef583h1f0ffad6a181669c@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Everyone,
What if.....


On 9/30/07, Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Simon,
>              I don't know if there are many unconditionally loving
> families about. Maybe I'm being cynical, I've just seen and heard so much of
> the way people can be ignorant towards children without being aware of the
> damage they can do. I hope there are, I guess there must be. I still think
> that there's mostly likely some painful trauma in the addicts background.
> Maybe if the parents are loving someone might be abused by an outsider,
> babysitter, relation, priest, teacher.


Such things happen, as say here, no matter what.  People are abused, its not
always the parents, yadda yaddaa....

 I remember reading about a local man who killed himself because he was
> abused by a local man, his other brother was picketing the abusers place as
> he was abused too.  Never heard what became of him.
>
>            There are probably other things that happen in circumstances
> that aren't the parents fault but will still cause a child damage. It's hard
> to know what could happen to cause problems.


Let me interject here also biological factors, that we don't blame anyone
for, because they are more concrete and "explainable".  Things like, Autism,
mental retardation, serious emotional problems.....the list goes on.

 I recall reading that Arthur Janov said that people having traumatic births
> has being more susceptible to addictions later because they have heavy pain
> imprint at such a crucial stage it makes other pains seem more extreem.


All the way down to birth.  But what if, we actually choose our destiny
before birth?  Chose to live THIS life with I believe environmental
influence.  Thats where I'm at, but why is the unanswerable for me.  I'm
just starting to learn that every experience is worth just as much weight as
the previous one.

 I had traumatic birth but I know my mother did too but she wasn't ever
> addicted to anything. I could see where it caused a lot of problems though.
>
> Luke
>
>
>
> On 9/27/07, simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >  HI Luke,
> > So what you are saying is that some families only look like good
> > families only from an outsiders point of view and I agree with this. But you
> > can have addicts coming from good families in the true sense (although I am
> > sure you would have to define what is meant by good)
> > So lets just say for argument both parents are present and the child
> > grows up realising that they are loved by both parents unconditionally and
> > both parents love each other.
> > All that needs to happen is for some one from that family to go through
> > certain experiences to create or bring out an addictive type behaviour. To
> > give an example they took twins and separated them for the day. One started
> > the day listening to upbeat music the other sentimental. Then they each
> > watched a separate movie. The one was a sad and sentimental and the other a
> > comedy. They then sent them shopping to see how they would behave and the
> > differences were obvious. The one who received the upbeat music and saw a
> > comedy enjoyed her self and bought some thing she normally would not so she
> > became a bit more inspired and adventurous. The other bought nothing. To me
> > it  just shows how you can take any person and expose them to a set of
> > experiences and these experiences can have an affect on that persons life.
> > So you can have a person from a loving home who has a bad day or even not,
> > but for some reason the addictive personality starts and has nothing to do
> > with where you are from or what your background is. The only thing I can say
> > in defence of the loving family situation that they may have possibly spent
> > time educating the child on how to avoid developing destructive behaviour
> > patterns.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Luke Christoffersen < luke.christoffersen at gmail.com>
> > To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, 26 September, 2007 9:13:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
> >
> > Hi Simon,
> >              There's one thing I've noticed about the strangeness of
> > addicts or other messed up people coming from so called 'good homes'.
> > People/Parents often don't behave the same way when other people are around
> > than they do when children are at home when there's no one to see what the
> > dynamic is really like.  I've seen it in my own life and in things I've
> > heard from others.  What my look like a happy home from the outside could be
> > miserable and lonely for the child.  Then when people grow up they can't
> > remember it, don't know there was anything wrong. Most people bury the
> > memories
> >             Often I think the idea of a traumatic childhood is thought
> > of as someone who was sexually abused or other of the extreme ends of this
> > area but years of little things like being criticized or not being allowed
> > to express oneself build up to cause terrible lifelong damage.  I think
> > there's many things that take place in 'good' homes that destroy the child
> > from being the person he or she needs to be allowed to be. I didn't come
> > from a broken home or poor home or anything like that, there was a lot of
> > enjoyment in my childhood too, but I still grew to be miserable and twisted
> > and suffering with self hatred because of negativity during my early life
> > but once I'd grown up I had long forgotten and and no idea understanding of
> > what was wrong inside me even though the hurt was still inside me. Drink and
> > drugs allowe d me to free myself for a time.
> >
> > Luke
> >
> >
> > On 9/23/07, simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
> > >
> > >  This maybe true, but being an addict or ex addict I have had plenty
> > > of friends who came from very good homes. Then there are the addicts that
> > > are very motivated and good in business you just don't hear about the last
> > > two because they manage to keep things covered up quite well and have the
> > > finances to keep them out of trouble and out of the public eye. As an
> > > example, the guy who I developed a habit with was a Dutch school teacher, he
> > > still had a good relationship with his family and had a "normal" life other
> > > than the fact that he was addicted to heroin.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail. Learn more<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/default/fifa_trueswitch/*http://eur.i1.yimg.com/java.europe.yahoo.com/uk/mail/fu/trueswitch/index.html>
> >
> >
> >  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> > (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
> >  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
> >
> >
>
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
>
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From simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Oct  1 05:44:18 2007
From: simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk (simon loxton)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:44:18 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Ibogaine] quantum weirdness
Message-ID: <402743.58052.qm@web27607.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V4K7FepKw4


----- Original Message ----
From: Matthew Shriver <Matt at ITSupport.net>
To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Saturday, 29 September, 2007 6:35:13 PM
Subject: [Ibogaine] quantum weirdness


I have known about this for a long time but someone finally made a cartoon to explain it.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc


      ___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it
now.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ 
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From bicuitboy714 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 07:42:30 2007
From: bicuitboy714 at gmail.com (Randy Faulconer)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 07:42:30 -0400
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ervatamia hainanensis - South China plant
In-Reply-To: <F98EC1B1-5F02-43A2-95E4-737A2824210E@phantom.com>
References: <20071001005247.1B967DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>
	<F98EC1B1-5F02-43A2-95E4-737A2824210E@phantom.com>
Message-ID: <29d165a30710010442tb50c1ebrf2f9ba308c3d3213@mail.gmail.com>

      Very interesting Howard. It looks like this grows in a lot of
different climates too..
          Randy


On 9/30/07, Howard Lotsof <hslotsof at phantom.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
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From jenkster at resonance.org  Mon Oct  1 10:08:01 2007
From: jenkster at resonance.org (Chris Jenks)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 07:08:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ervatamia hainanensis - South China plant
In-Reply-To: <F98EC1B1-5F02-43A2-95E4-737A2824210E@phantom.com>
References: <20071001005247.1B967DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>
	<F98EC1B1-5F02-43A2-95E4-737A2824210E@phantom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710010704420.4167@ace.sift.us>


   Dear Howard,

   I haven't been reading this list regularly at all, but I checked in 
enough to see that the list server was recently replaced. I seem to be 
getting messages again, but for some reason the one you just posted didn't 
contain any text, except the three automatic lines below. I don't know how 
Randy got your message and I didn't! Anyway, I would like to read your 
post if you could repost it and/or cc me directly.

   Thanks,

     Chris

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, Howard Lotsof wrote:

>
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>


From ken_salter45 at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  1 11:54:54 2007
From: ken_salter45 at hotmail.com (ken Salter)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:54:54 +0000
Subject: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
In-Reply-To: <5e5515970710010208g6feef583h1f0ffad6a181669c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <193156.54748.qm@web27601.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4c90d90709301348s2c15502vaac91418477d86da@mail.gmail.com> 
	<5e5515970710010208g6feef583h1f0ffad6a181669c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY123-W126C0D14B329110D87E56BECAD0@phx.gbl>





Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 02:08:24 -0700From: gutierrezmelanie at gmail.comTo: ibogaine at mindvox.comSubject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
Hey Everyone,
What if..... 
On 9/30/07, Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen at gmail.com> wrote: 
Hi Simon,             I don't know if there are many unconditionally loving families about. Maybe I'm being cynical, I've just seen and heard so much of the way people can be ignorant towards children without being aware of the damage they can do. I hope there are, I guess there must be. I still think that there's mostly likely some painful trauma in the addicts background. Maybe if the parents are loving someone might be abused by an outsider, babysitter, relation, priest, teacher.  
 
Such things happen, as say here, no matter what.  People are abused, its not always the parents, yadda yaddaa....
I remember reading about a local man who killed himself because he was abused by a local man, his other brother was picketing the abusers place as he was abused too.  Never heard what became of him.            There are probably other things that happen in circumstances that aren't the parents fault but will still cause a child damage. It's hard to know what could happen to cause problems.
 
Let me interject here also biological factors, that we don't blame anyone for, because they are more concrete and "explainable".  Things like, Autism, mental retardation, serious emotional problems.....the list goes on. 
 I recall reading that Arthur Janov said that people having traumatic births has being more susceptible to addictions later because they have heavy pain imprint at such a crucial stage it makes other pains seem more extreem. 
 
All the way down to birth.  But what if, we actually choose our destiny before birth?  Chose to live THIS life with I believe environmental influence.  Thats where I'm at, but why is the unanswerable for me.  I'm just starting to learn that every experience is worth just as much weight as the previous one.  
I had traumatic birth but I know my mother did too but she wasn't ever addicted to anything. I could see where it caused a lot of problems though. Luke
On 9/27/07, simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote: 



HI Luke,
So what you are saying is that some families only look like good families only from an outsiders point of view and I agree with this. But you can have addicts coming from good families in the true sense (although I am sure you would have to define what is meant by good) So lets just say for argument both parents are present and the child grows up realising that they are loved by both parents unconditionally and both parents love each other. 
All that needs to happen is for some one from that family to go through certain experiences to create or bring out an addictive type behaviour. To give an example they took twins and separated them for the day. One started the day listening to upbeat music the other sentimental. Then they each watched a separate movie. The one was a sad and sentimental and the other a comedy. They then sent them shopping to see how they would behave and the differences were obvious. The one who received the upbeat music and saw a comedy enjoyed her self and bought some thing she normally would not so she became a bit more inspired and adventurous. The other bought nothing. To me it  just shows how you can take any person and expose them to a set of experiences and these experiences can have an affect on that persons life. So you can have a person from a loving home who has a bad day or even not, but for some reason the addictive personality starts and has nothing to do with where you are from or what your background is. The only thing I can say in defence of the loving family situation that they may have possibly spent time educating the child on how to avoid developing destructive behaviour patterns. 
 
----- Original Message ----From: Luke Christoffersen < luke.christoffersen at gmail.com>To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>Sent: Wednesday, 26 September, 2007 9:13:13 PM Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc EmeryHi Simon,             There's one thing I've noticed about the strangeness of addicts or other messed up people coming from so called 'good homes'.  People/Parents often don't behave the same way when other people are around than they do when children are at home when there's no one to see what the dynamic is really like.  I've seen it in my own life and in things I've heard from others.  What my look like a happy home from the outside could be miserable and lonely for the child.  Then when people grow up they can't remember it, don't know there was anything wrong. Most people bury the memories             Often I think the idea of a traumatic childhood is thought of as someone who was sexually abused or other of the extreme ends of this area but years of little things like being criticized or not being allowed to express oneself build up to cause terrible lifelong damage.  I think there's many things that take place in 'good' homes that destroy the child from being the person he or she needs to be allowed to be. I didn't come from a broken home or poor home or anything like that, there was a lot of enjoyment in my childhood too, but I still grew to be miserable and twisted and suffering with self hatred because of negativity during my early life but once I'd grown up I had long forgotten and and no idea understanding of what was wrong inside me even though the hurt was still inside me. Drink and drugs allowe d me to free myself for a time. Luke
On 9/23/07, simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote: 



This maybe true, but being an addict or ex addict I have had plenty of friends who came from very good homes. Then there are the addicts that are very motivated and good in business you just don't hear about the last two because they manage to keep things covered up quite well and have the finances to keep them out of trouble and out of the public eye. As an example, the guy who I developed a habit with was a Dutch school teacher, he still had a good relationship with his family and had a "normal" life other than the fact that he was addicted to heroin. 
 

24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail. Learn more  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-(][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][) -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=- (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][) -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- 
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From gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 13:24:47 2007
From: gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com (Melanie Gutierrez)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:24:47 -0700
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ervatamia hainanensis - South China plant
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710010704420.4167@ace.sift.us>
References: <20071001005247.1B967DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>
	<F98EC1B1-5F02-43A2-95E4-737A2824210E@phantom.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710010704420.4167@ace.sift.us>
Message-ID: <5e5515970710011024p3e66ca7by7ce529c6206be611@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, I thought I was just trippin,  same here, there have been 2 blannk
messages now That I've seen.
M


On 10/1/07, Chris Jenks <jenkster at resonance.org> wrote:
>
>
>   Dear Howard,
>
>   I haven't been reading this list regularly at all, but I checked in
> enough to see that the list server was recently replaced. I seem to be
> getting messages again, but for some reason the one you just posted didn't
> contain any text, except the three automatic lines below. I don't know how
> Randy got your message and I didn't! Anyway, I would like to read your
> post if you could repost it and/or cc me directly.
>
>   Thanks,
>
>     Chris
>
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, Howard Lotsof wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> > (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
> >  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
> >
>
> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
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From gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 13:51:48 2007
From: gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com (Melanie Gutierrez)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:51:48 -0700
Subject: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W126C0D14B329110D87E56BECAD0@phx.gbl>
References: <193156.54748.qm@web27601.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4c90d90709301348s2c15502vaac91418477d86da@mail.gmail.com>
	<5e5515970710010208g6feef583h1f0ffad6a181669c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY123-W126C0D14B329110D87E56BECAD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5e5515970710011051g31c915ecgecc9c4b63443754b@mail.gmail.com>

Ken's message was blank for me, anyone else see it?

On 10/1/07, ken Salter <ken_salter45 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 02:08:24 -0700
> From: gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com
> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
>
> Hey Everyone,
> What if.....
>
>
> On 9/30/07, *Luke Christoffersen* <luke.christoffersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Simon,
>              I don't know if there are many unconditionally loving
> families about. Maybe I'm being cynical, I've just seen and heard so much of
> the way people can be ignorant towards children without being aware of the
> damage they can do. I hope there are, I guess there must be. I still think
> that there's mostly likely some painful trauma in the addicts background.
> Maybe if the parents are loving someone might be abused by an outsider,
> babysitter, relation, priest, teacher.
>
>
> Such things happen, as say here, no matter what.  People are abused, its
> not always the parents, yadda yaddaa....
>
> I remember reading about a local man who killed himself because he was
> abused by a local man, his other brother was picketing the abusers place as
> he was abused too.  Never heard what became of him.
>
>            There are probably other things that happen in circumstances
> that aren't the parents fault but will still cause a child damage. It's hard
> to know what could happen to cause problems.
>
>
> Let me interject here also biological factors, that we don't blame anyone
> for, because they are more concrete and "explainable".  Things like, Autism,
> mental retardation, serious emotional problems.....the list goes on.
>
>  I recall reading that Arthur Janov said that people having traumatic
> births has being more susceptible to addictions later because they have
> heavy pain imprint at such a crucial stage it makes other pains seem more
> extreem.
>
>
> All the way down to birth.  But what if, we actually choose our destiny
> before birth?  Chose to live THIS life with I believe environmental
> influence.  Thats where I'm at, but why is the unanswerable for me.  I'm
> just starting to learn that every experience is worth just as much weight as
> the previous one.
>
> I had traumatic birth but I know my mother did too but she wasn't ever
> addicted to anything. I could see where it caused a lot of problems though.
>
> Luke
>
>
>
> On 9/27/07, *simon loxton* <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
>
>  HI Luke,
> So what you are saying is that some families only look like good families
> only from an outsiders point of view and I agree with this. But you can have
> addicts coming from good families in the true sense (although I am sure you
> would have to define what is meant by good)
> So lets just say for argument both parents are present and the child grows
> up realising that they are loved by both parents unconditionally and both
> parents love each other.
> All that needs to happen is for some one from that family to go through
> certain experiences to create or bring out an addictive type behaviour. To
> give an example they took twins and separated them for the day. One started
> the day listening to upbeat music the other sentimental. Then they each
> watched a separate movie. The one was a sad and sentimental and the other a
> comedy. They then sent them shopping to see how they would behave and the
> differences were obvious. The one who received the upbeat music and saw a
> comedy enjoyed her self and bought some thing she normally would not so she
> became a bit more inspired and adventurous. The other bought nothing. To me
> it  just shows how you can take any person and expose them to a set of
> experiences and these experiences can have an affect on that persons life.
> So you can have a person from a loving home who has a bad day or even not,
> but for some reason the addictive personality starts and has nothing to do
> with where you are from or what your background is. The only thing I can say
> in defence of the loving family situation that they may have possibly spent
> time educating the child on how to avoid developing destructive behaviour
> patterns.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Luke Christoffersen < luke.christoffersen at gmail.com>
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, 26 September, 2007 9:13:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
>
> Hi Simon,
>              There's one thing I've noticed about the strangeness of
> addicts or other messed up people coming from so called 'good homes'.
> People/Parents often don't behave the same way when other people are around
> than they do when children are at home when there's no one to see what the
> dynamic is really like.  I've seen it in my own life and in things I've
> heard from others.  What my look like a happy home from the outside could be
> miserable and lonely for the child.  Then when people grow up they can't
> remember it, don't know there was anything wrong. Most people bury the
> memories
>             Often I think the idea of a traumatic childhood is thought of
> as someone who was sexually abused or other of the extreme ends of this area
> but years of little things like being criticized or not being allowed to
> express oneself build up to cause terrible lifelong damage.  I think there's
> many things that take place in 'good' homes that destroy the child from
> being the person he or she needs to be allowed to be. I didn't come from a
> broken home or poor home or anything like that, there was a lot of enjoyment
> in my childhood too, but I still grew to be miserable and twisted and
> suffering with self hatred because of negativity during my early life but
> once I'd grown up I had long forgotten and and no idea understanding of what
> was wrong inside me even though the hurt was still inside me. Drink and
> drugs allowe d me to free myself for a time.
>
> Luke
>
>
> On 9/23/07, *simon loxton* <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
>
>  This maybe true, but being an addict or ex addict I have had plenty of
> friends who came from very good homes. Then there are the addicts that are
> very motivated and good in business you just don't hear about the last two
> because they manage to keep things covered up quite well and have the
> finances to keep them out of trouble and out of the public eye. As an
> example, the guy who I developed a habit with was a Dutch school teacher, he
> still had a good relationship with his family and had a "normal" life other
> than the fact that he was addicted to heroin.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail. Learn more<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/default/fifa_trueswitch/*http://eur.i1.yimg.com/java.europe.yahoo.com/uk/mail/fu/trueswitch/index.html>
>
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
>
>
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com<http://live.com/>.
> Check it out! <http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx+>
>
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
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From bicuitboy714 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 14:05:45 2007
From: bicuitboy714 at gmail.com (Randy Faulconer)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 14:05:45 -0400
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ervatamia hainanensis - South China plant
In-Reply-To: <F98EC1B1-5F02-43A2-95E4-737A2824210E@phantom.com>
References: <20071001005247.1B967DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>
	<F98EC1B1-5F02-43A2-95E4-737A2824210E@phantom.com>
Message-ID: <29d165a30710011105o2618a4a1rbb90c2575b0d4b21@mail.gmail.com>

               Yall didn't know? I can read Howard's mind. I can read yours
too.........................BWA HAAH HAAA HA HAAAA HAAAAAA








    No really, I just looked at the header and saw that Howard had put the
name of a plant, and knowing Howard is always on the cutting edge of
everything I looked up the name of the plant. It contains Ibogamide and MC
18 among some indole alkaloids of
interest..................................or you can believe I can read your
mind. It's up to you!!!!!???????

          Peace Love and Crystal Balls

                 Randy


On 9/30/07, Howard Lotsof <hslotsof at phantom.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
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From Matt at ITSupport.net  Mon Oct  1 14:09:30 2007
From: Matt at ITSupport.net (Matthew Shriver)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:09:30 -0600
Subject: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
In-Reply-To: <5e5515970710011051g31c915ecgecc9c4b63443754b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <193156.54748.qm@web27601.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><4c90d90709301348s2c15502vaac91418477d86da@mail.gmail.com><5e5515970710010208g6feef583h1f0ffad6a181669c@mail.gmail.com><BAY123-W126C0D14B329110D87E56BECAD0@phx.gbl>
	<5e5515970710011051g31c915ecgecc9c4b63443754b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008d01c80456$370f3060$3201a8c0@bluefiashly>

You're not tripping Mel.  This one and Howard's were both blank.  But if you
google that plant name that Howard sent you will find that it contains some
iboga alkaloids, unfortunately however it does not contain ibogaine from
what I saw anyway.

 

This post reminded me of Ron/Grasshopper who used to post blank messages
every once in awhile, to keep us on our toes I guess.  Wonder whatever
happened to him.  

 

Matt

 

  _____  

From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com] On
Behalf Of Melanie Gutierrez
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 11:52 AM
To: The Ibogaine List
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery

 

Ken's message was blank for me, anyone else see it?

On 10/1/07, ken Salter <ken_salter45 at hotmail.com> wrote: 

 


  _____  


Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 02:08:24 -0700
From: gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com
To: ibogaine at mindvox.com 


Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery

Hey Everyone,

What if.....

 

On 9/30/07, Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen at gmail.com> wrote: 

Hi Simon,
             I don't know if there are many unconditionally loving families
about. Maybe I'm being cynical, I've just seen and heard so much of the way
people can be ignorant towards children without being aware of the damage
they can do. I hope there are, I guess there must be. I still think that
there's mostly likely some painful trauma in the addicts background. Maybe
if the parents are loving someone might be abused by an outsider,
babysitter, relation, priest, teacher.  

 

Such things happen, as say here, no matter what.  People are abused, its not
always the parents, yadda yaddaa....

 

I remember reading about a local man who killed himself because he was
abused by a local man, his other brother was picketing the abusers place as
he was abused too.  Never heard what became of him. 

           There are probably other things that happen in circumstances that
aren't the parents fault but will still cause a child damage. It's hard to
know what could happen to cause problems.

 

Let me interject here also biological factors, that we don't blame anyone
for, because they are more concrete and "explainable".  Things like, Autism,
mental retardation, serious emotional problems.....the list goes on. 

 

 I recall reading that Arthur Janov said that people having traumatic births
has being more susceptible to addictions later because they have heavy pain
imprint at such a crucial stage it makes other pains seem more extreem. 

 

All the way down to birth.  But what if, we actually choose our destiny
before birth?  Chose to live THIS life with I believe environmental
influence.  Thats where I'm at, but why is the unanswerable for me.  I'm
just starting to learn that every experience is worth just as much weight as
the previous one.  

 

I had traumatic birth but I know my mother did too but she wasn't ever
addicted to anything. I could see where it caused a lot of problems though. 

Luke




On 9/27/07, simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote: 

HI Luke,

So what you are saying is that some families only look like good families
only from an outsiders point of view and I agree with this. But you can have
addicts coming from good families in the true sense (although I am sure you
would have to define what is meant by good) 
So lets just say for argument both parents are present and the child grows
up realising that they are loved by both parents unconditionally and both
parents love each other. 

All that needs to happen is for some one from that family to go through
certain experiences to create or bring out an addictive type behaviour. To
give an example they took twins and separated them for the day. One started
the day listening to upbeat music the other sentimental. Then they each
watched a separate movie. The one was a sad and sentimental and the other a
comedy. They then sent them shopping to see how they would behave and the
differences were obvious. The one who received the upbeat music and saw a
comedy enjoyed her self and bought some thing she normally would not so she
became a bit more inspired and adventurous. The other bought nothing. To me
it  just shows how you can take any person and expose them to a set of
experiences and these experiences can have an affect on that persons life.
So you can have a person from a loving home who has a bad day or even not,
but for some reason the addictive personality starts and has nothing to do
with where you are from or what your background is. The only thing I can say
in defence of the loving family situation that they may have possibly spent
time educating the child on how to avoid developing destructive behaviour
patterns. 


 

----- Original Message ----
From: Luke Christoffersen < luke.christoffersen at gmail.com
<mailto:luke.christoffersen at gmail.com> >
To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 26 September, 2007 9:13:13 PM 
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery

Hi Simon,
             There's one thing I've noticed about the strangeness of addicts
or other messed up people coming from so called 'good homes'.
People/Parents often don't behave the same way when other people are around
than they do when children are at home when there's no one to see what the
dynamic is really like.  I've seen it in my own life and in things I've
heard from others.  What my look like a happy home from the outside could be
miserable and lonely for the child.  Then when people grow up they can't
remember it, don't know there was anything wrong. Most people bury the
memories 
            Often I think the idea of a traumatic childhood is thought of as
someone who was sexually abused or other of the extreme ends of this area
but years of little things like being criticized or not being allowed to
express oneself build up to cause terrible lifelong damage.  I think there's
many things that take place in 'good' homes that destroy the child from
being the person he or she needs to be allowed to be. I didn't come from a
broken home or poor home or anything like that, there was a lot of enjoyment
in my childhood too, but I still grew to be miserable and twisted and
suffering with self hatred because of negativity during my early life but
once I'd grown up I had long forgotten and and no idea understanding of what
was wrong inside me even though the hurt was still inside me. Drink and
drugs allowe d me to free myself for a time. 

Luke



On 9/23/07, simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote: 

This maybe true, but being an addict or ex addict I have had plenty of
friends who came from very good homes. Then there are the addicts that are
very motivated and good in business you just don't hear about the last two
because they manage to keep things covered up quite well and have the
finances to keep them out of trouble and out of the public eye. As an
example, the guy who I developed a habit with was a Dutch school teacher, he
still had a good relationship with his family and had a "normal" life other
than the fact that he was addicted to heroin. 

 


 

 


  _____  


24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail. Learn more
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/default/fifa_trueswitch/*http:/eur.
i1.yimg.com/java.europe.yahoo.com/uk/mail/fu/trueswitch/index.html>  



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(][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
 -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-




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(][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
 -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- 





 

  _____  

Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com
<http://live.com/> . Check it out! <http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx+> 



 -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
(][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
 -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-

 

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From gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 14:48:18 2007
From: gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com (Melanie Gutierrez)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:48:18 -0700
Subject: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
In-Reply-To: <008d01c80456$370f3060$3201a8c0@bluefiashly>
References: <193156.54748.qm@web27601.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4c90d90709301348s2c15502vaac91418477d86da@mail.gmail.com>
	<5e5515970710010208g6feef583h1f0ffad6a181669c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY123-W126C0D14B329110D87E56BECAD0@phx.gbl>
	<5e5515970710011051g31c915ecgecc9c4b63443754b@mail.gmail.com>
	<008d01c80456$370f3060$3201a8c0@bluefiashly>
Message-ID: <5e5515970710011148g1b040b2dlfc1cd06e74467c53@mail.gmail.com>

Well, a couple of months ago, I tried to call Mr. Hopper out on the list, to
no avail.  Maybe now with the server switch, maybe he's getting the
messages.  *shrug*  Here it goes again...
Yoooohoooooo, hippyhopper, where are you?????
MM


On 10/1/07, Matthew Shriver <Matt at itsupport.net> wrote:
>
>  You're not tripping Mel.  This one and Howard's were both blank.  But if
> you google that plant name that Howard sent you will find that it contains
> some iboga alkaloids, unfortunately however it does not contain ibogaine
> from what I saw anyway.
>
>
>
> This post reminded me of Ron/Grasshopper who used to post blank messages
> every once in awhile, to keep us on our toes I guess.  Wonder whatever
> happened to him.
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Melanie Gutierrez
> *Sent:* Monday, October 01, 2007 11:52 AM
> *To:* The Ibogaine List
> *Subject:* Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
>
>
>
> Ken's message was blank for me, anyone else see it?
>
> On 10/1/07, *ken Salter* <ken_salter45 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 02:08:24 -0700
> From: gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com
> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
>
> Hey Everyone,
>
> What if.....
>
>
>
> On 9/30/07, *Luke Christoffersen* <luke.christoffersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Simon,
>              I don't know if there are many unconditionally loving
> families about. Maybe I'm being cynical, I've just seen and heard so much of
> the way people can be ignorant towards children without being aware of the
> damage they can do. I hope there are, I guess there must be. I still think
> that there's mostly likely some painful trauma in the addicts background.
> Maybe if the parents are loving someone might be abused by an outsider,
> babysitter, relation, priest, teacher.
>
>
>
> Such things happen, as say here, no matter what.  People are abused, its
> not always the parents, yadda yaddaa....
>
>
>
> I remember reading about a local man who killed himself because he was
> abused by a local man, his other brother was picketing the abusers place as
> he was abused too.  Never heard what became of him.
>
>            There are probably other things that happen in circumstances
> that aren't the parents fault but will still cause a child damage. It's hard
> to know what could happen to cause problems.
>
>
>
> Let me interject here also biological factors, that we don't blame anyone
> for, because they are more concrete and "explainable".  Things like, Autism,
> mental retardation, serious emotional problems.....the list goes on.
>
>
>
>  I recall reading that Arthur Janov said that people having traumatic
> births has being more susceptible to addictions later because they have
> heavy pain imprint at such a crucial stage it makes other pains seem more
> extreem.
>
>
>
> All the way down to birth.  But what if, we actually choose our destiny
> before birth?  Chose to live THIS life with I believe environmental
> influence.  Thats where I'm at, but why is the unanswerable for me.  I'm
> just starting to learn that every experience is worth just as much weight as
> the previous one.
>
>
>
> I had traumatic birth but I know my mother did too but she wasn't ever
> addicted to anything. I could see where it caused a lot of problems though.
>
> Luke
>
>
>  On 9/27/07, *simon loxton* <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
>
> HI Luke,
>
> So what you are saying is that some families only look like good families
> only from an outsiders point of view and I agree with this. But you can have
> addicts coming from good families in the true sense (although I am sure you
> would have to define what is meant by good)
> So lets just say for argument both parents are present and the child grows
> up realising that they are loved by both parents unconditionally and both
> parents love each other.
>
> All that needs to happen is for some one from that family to go through
> certain experiences to create or bring out an addictive type behaviour. To
> give an example they took twins and separated them for the day. One started
> the day listening to upbeat music the other sentimental. Then they each
> watched a separate movie. The one was a sad and sentimental and the other a
> comedy. They then sent them shopping to see how they would behave and the
> differences were obvious. The one who received the upbeat music and saw a
> comedy enjoyed her self and bought some thing she normally would not so she
> became a bit more inspired and adventurous. The other bought nothing. To me
> it  just shows how you can take any person and expose them to a set of
> experiences and these experiences can have an affect on that persons life.
> So you can have a person from a loving home who has a bad day or even not,
> but for some reason the addictive personality starts and has nothing to do
> with where you are from or what your background is. The only thing I can say
> in defence of the loving family situation that they may have possibly spent
> time educating the child on how to avoid developing destructive behaviour
> patterns.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Luke Christoffersen < luke.christoffersen at gmail.com>
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, 26 September, 2007 9:13:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
>
> Hi Simon,
>              There's one thing I've noticed about the strangeness of
> addicts or other messed up people coming from so called 'good homes'.
> People/Parents often don't behave the same way when other people are around
> than they do when children are at home when there's no one to see what the
> dynamic is really like.  I've seen it in my own life and in things I've
> heard from others.  What my look like a happy home from the outside could be
> miserable and lonely for the child.  Then when people grow up they can't
> remember it, don't know there was anything wrong. Most people bury the
> memories
>             Often I think the idea of a traumatic childhood is thought of
> as someone who was sexually abused or other of the extreme ends of this area
> but years of little things like being criticized or not being allowed to
> express oneself build up to cause terrible lifelong damage.  I think there's
> many things that take place in 'good' homes that destroy the child from
> being the person he or she needs to be allowed to be. I didn't come from a
> broken home or poor home or anything like that, there was a lot of enjoyment
> in my childhood too, but I still grew to be miserable and twisted and
> suffering with self hatred because of negativity during my early life but
> once I'd grown up I had long forgotten and and no idea understanding of what
> was wrong inside me even though the hurt was still inside me. Drink and
> drugs allowe d me to free myself for a time.
>
> Luke
>
>  On 9/23/07, *simon loxton* <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
>
> This maybe true, but being an addict or ex addict I have had plenty of
> friends who came from very good homes. Then there are the addicts that are
> very motivated and good in business you just don't hear about the last two
> because they manage to keep things covered up quite well and have the
> finances to keep them out of trouble and out of the public eye. As an
> example, the guy who I developed a habit with was a Dutch school teacher, he
> still had a good relationship with his family and had a "normal" life other
> than the fact that he was addicted to heroin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail. Learn more<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/default/fifa_trueswitch/*http:/eur.i1.yimg.com/java.europe.yahoo.com/uk/mail/fu/trueswitch/index.html>
>
>
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
>
>
>
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> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com<http://live.com/>.
> Check it out! <http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx+>
>
>
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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From gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 14:50:11 2007
From: gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com (Melanie Gutierrez)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:50:11 -0700
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ervatamia hainanensis - South China plant
In-Reply-To: <29d165a30710011105o2618a4a1rbb90c2575b0d4b21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071001005247.1B967DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>
	<F98EC1B1-5F02-43A2-95E4-737A2824210E@phantom.com>
	<29d165a30710011105o2618a4a1rbb90c2575b0d4b21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5e5515970710011150od78f367q39ea0affe861713f@mail.gmail.com>

I'm going with....Your a super hero.....With a BIG R on your chest......

On 10/1/07, Randy Faulconer <bicuitboy714 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>                Yall didn't know? I can read Howard's mind. I can read
> yours too.........................BWA HAAH HAAA HA HAAAA HAAAAAA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     No really, I just looked at the header and saw that Howard had put the
> name of a plant, and knowing Howard is always on the cutting edge of
> everything I looked up the name of the plant. It contains Ibogamide and MC
> 18 among some indole alkaloids of
> interest..................................or you can believe I can read your
> mind. It's up to you!!!!!???????
>
>           Peace Love and Crystal Balls
>
>                  Randy
>
>
> On 9/30/07, Howard Lotsof <hslotsof at phantom.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> > (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
> > -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
> >
>
>
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
>
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From gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 15:21:21 2007
From: gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com (Melanie Gutierrez)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:21:21 -0700
Subject: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
In-Reply-To: <BAY123-W126C0D14B329110D87E56BECAD0@phx.gbl>
References: <193156.54748.qm@web27601.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4c90d90709301348s2c15502vaac91418477d86da@mail.gmail.com>
	<5e5515970710010208g6feef583h1f0ffad6a181669c@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY123-W126C0D14B329110D87E56BECAD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5e5515970710011221i2289c94fi9e0efd002d210231@mail.gmail.com>

just message me offlist

On 10/1/07, ken Salter <ken_salter45 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 02:08:24 -0700
> From: gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com
> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
>
> Hey Everyone,
> What if.....
>
>
> On 9/30/07, *Luke Christoffersen* <luke.christoffersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Simon,
>              I don't know if there are many unconditionally loving
> families about. Maybe I'm being cynical, I've just seen and heard so much of
> the way people can be ignorant towards children without being aware of the
> damage they can do. I hope there are, I guess there must be. I still think
> that there's mostly likely some painful trauma in the addicts background.
> Maybe if the parents are loving someone might be abused by an outsider,
> babysitter, relation, priest, teacher.
>
>
> Such things happen, as say here, no matter what.  People are abused, its
> not always the parents, yadda yaddaa....
>
> I remember reading about a local man who killed himself because he was
> abused by a local man, his other brother was picketing the abusers place as
> he was abused too.  Never heard what became of him.
>
>            There are probably other things that happen in circumstances
> that aren't the parents fault but will still cause a child damage. It's hard
> to know what could happen to cause problems.
>
>
> Let me interject here also biological factors, that we don't blame anyone
> for, because they are more concrete and "explainable".  Things like, Autism,
> mental retardation, serious emotional problems.....the list goes on.
>
>  I recall reading that Arthur Janov said that people having traumatic
> births has being more susceptible to addictions later because they have
> heavy pain imprint at such a crucial stage it makes other pains seem more
> extreem.
>
>
> All the way down to birth.  But what if, we actually choose our destiny
> before birth?  Chose to live THIS life with I believe environmental
> influence.  Thats where I'm at, but why is the unanswerable for me.  I'm
> just starting to learn that every experience is worth just as much weight as
> the previous one.
>
> I had traumatic birth but I know my mother did too but she wasn't ever
> addicted to anything. I could see where it caused a lot of problems though.
>
> Luke
>
>
>
> On 9/27/07, *simon loxton* <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
>
>  HI Luke,
> So what you are saying is that some families only look like good families
> only from an outsiders point of view and I agree with this. But you can have
> addicts coming from good families in the true sense (although I am sure you
> would have to define what is meant by good)
> So lets just say for argument both parents are present and the child grows
> up realising that they are loved by both parents unconditionally and both
> parents love each other.
> All that needs to happen is for some one from that family to go through
> certain experiences to create or bring out an addictive type behaviour. To
> give an example they took twins and separated them for the day. One started
> the day listening to upbeat music the other sentimental. Then they each
> watched a separate movie. The one was a sad and sentimental and the other a
> comedy. They then sent them shopping to see how they would behave and the
> differences were obvious. The one who received the upbeat music and saw a
> comedy enjoyed her self and bought some thing she normally would not so she
> became a bit more inspired and adventurous. The other bought nothing. To me
> it  just shows how you can take any person and expose them to a set of
> experiences and these experiences can have an affect on that persons life.
> So you can have a person from a loving home who has a bad day or even not,
> but for some reason the addictive personality starts and has nothing to do
> with where you are from or what your background is. The only thing I can say
> in defence of the loving family situation that they may have possibly spent
> time educating the child on how to avoid developing destructive behaviour
> patterns.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Luke Christoffersen < luke.christoffersen at gmail.com>
> To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, 26 September, 2007 9:13:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
>
> Hi Simon,
>              There's one thing I've noticed about the strangeness of
> addicts or other messed up people coming from so called 'good homes'.
> People/Parents often don't behave the same way when other people are around
> than they do when children are at home when there's no one to see what the
> dynamic is really like.  I've seen it in my own life and in things I've
> heard from others.  What my look like a happy home from the outside could be
> miserable and lonely for the child.  Then when people grow up they can't
> remember it, don't know there was anything wrong. Most people bury the
> memories
>             Often I think the idea of a traumatic childhood is thought of
> as someone who was sexually abused or other of the extreme ends of this area
> but years of little things like being criticized or not being allowed to
> express oneself build up to cause terrible lifelong damage.  I think there's
> many things that take place in 'good' homes that destroy the child from
> being the person he or she needs to be allowed to be. I didn't come from a
> broken home or poor home or anything like that, there was a lot of enjoyment
> in my childhood too, but I still grew to be miserable and twisted and
> suffering with self hatred because of negativity during my early life but
> once I'd grown up I had long forgotten and and no idea understanding of what
> was wrong inside me even though the hurt was still inside me. Drink and
> drugs allowe d me to free myself for a time.
>
> Luke
>
>
> On 9/23/07, *simon loxton* <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
>
>  This maybe true, but being an addict or ex addict I have had plenty of
> friends who came from very good homes. Then there are the addicts that are
> very motivated and good in business you just don't hear about the last two
> because they manage to keep things covered up quite well and have the
> finances to keep them out of trouble and out of the public eye. As an
> example, the guy who I developed a habit with was a Dutch school teacher, he
> still had a good relationship with his family and had a "normal" life other
> than the fact that he was addicted to heroin.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail. Learn more<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/uk/taglines/default/fifa_trueswitch/*http://eur.i1.yimg.com/java.europe.yahoo.com/uk/mail/fu/trueswitch/index.html>
>
>
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>
>
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com<http://live.com/>.
> Check it out! <http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx+>
>
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
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>
>
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From hokkaidocrow at gmail.com  Mon Oct  1 15:24:55 2007
From: hokkaidocrow at gmail.com (Carlton B)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:24:55 -0400
Subject: [Ibogaine] ruminations on entheogens, addiction, and NA
In-Reply-To: <20071001005247.1B967DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>
References: <20071001005247.1B967DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <5c3c8a220710011224i4b9ab48am3153f2e22f12aa91@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/30/07, slowone at hush.ai <slowone at hush.ai> wrote:
> I'm glad I don't have a history of addiction and NA to lead me to
> struggle with my use of ayahuasca. That said, I have recently been
> thinking that my main reason for taking it is to share the ceremony
> with people I love so that I can hang out afterwards and have
> spontaneous conversations. This is because ayahuasca itself has
> been so wearing on me of late, showing me my death in my succumbing
> to fatigue and feelings of failure ('vine of death' is what
> ayahuasca means). So I have a sort of mirror-image problem to
> yours. Looks like both of us are signed up for the immediate future
> though.

I didn't quite get what you were saying there... do you feel like your
ayahuasca usage is problematic in some way, or do you wonder if it's
getting to a problematic stage, or are you just reflecting on the
reasons you take it?  If you don't mind my asking, about how often are
you taking it, and to what degree of effect?


From simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Oct  1 15:28:55 2007
From: simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk (simon loxton)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:28:55 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery
Message-ID: <402831.86427.qm@web27614.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

I got a blank message from Howard



----- Original Message ----
From: Melanie Gutierrez <gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com>
To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, 1 October, 2007 7:51:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery

Ken's message was blank for me, anyone else see it?


On 10/1/07, ken Salter <ken_salter45 at hotmail.com> wrote: 





Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 02:08:24 -0700
From: gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com
To: ibogaine at mindvox.com 

Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery


Hey Everyone,
What if.....

 
On 9/30/07, Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen at gmail.com> wrote: 
Hi Simon,
             I don't know if there are many unconditionally loving families about. Maybe I'm being cynical, I've just seen and heard so much of the way people can be ignorant towards children without being aware of the damage they can do. I hope there are, I guess there must be. I still think that there's mostly likely some painful trauma in the addicts background. Maybe if the parents are loving someone might be abused by an outsider, babysitter, relation, priest, teacher.  
 
Such things happen, as say here, no matter what.  People are abused, its not always the parents, yadda yaddaa....


I remember reading about a local man who killed himself because he was abused by a local man, his other brother was picketing the abusers place as he was abused too.  Never heard what became of him. 

           There are probably other things that happen in circumstances that aren't the parents fault but will still cause a child damage. It's hard to know what could happen to cause problems.
 
Let me interject here also biological factors, that we don't blame anyone for, because they are more concrete and "explainable".  Things like, Autism, mental retardation, serious emotional problems.....the list goes on. 


 I recall reading that Arthur Janov said that people having traumatic births has being more susceptible to addictions later because they have heavy pain imprint at such a crucial stage it makes other pains seem more extreem. 
 
All the way down to birth.  But what if, we actually choose our destiny before birth?  Chose to live THIS life with I believe environmental influence.  Thats where I'm at, but why is the unanswerable for me.  I'm just starting to learn that every experience is worth just as much weight as the previous one.  


I had traumatic birth but I know my mother did too but she wasn't ever addicted to anything. I could see where it caused a lot of problems though. 

Luke




On 9/27/07, simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote: 
HI Luke,
So what you are saying is that some families only look like good families only from an outsiders point of view and I agree with this. But you can have addicts coming from good families in the true sense (although I am sure you would have to define what is meant by good) 
So lets just say for argument both parents are present and the child grows up realising that they are loved by both parents unconditionally and both parents love each other. 
All that needs to happen is for some one from that family to go through certain experiences to create or bring out an addictive type behaviour. To give an example they took twins and separated them for the day. One started the day listening to upbeat music the other sentimental. Then they each watched a separate movie. The one was a sad and sentimental and the other a comedy. They then sent them shopping to see how they would behave and the differences were obvious. The one who received the upbeat music and saw a comedy enjoyed her self and bought some thing she normally would not so she became a bit more inspired and adventurous. The other bought nothing. To me it  just shows how you can take any person and expose them to a set of experiences and these experiences can have an affect on that persons life. So you can have a person from a loving home who has a bad day or even not, but for some reason the addictive personality starts and has nothing to do
 with where you are from or what your background is. The only thing I can say in defence of the loving family situation that they may have possibly spent time educating the child on how to avoid developing destructive behaviour patterns. 

 
----- Original Message ----
From: Luke Christoffersen < luke.christoffersen at gmail.com>
To: The Ibogaine List <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 26 September, 2007 9:13:13 PM 
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] The War on Consciousness , Marc Emery

Hi Simon,
             There's one thing I've noticed about the strangeness of addicts or other messed up people coming from so called 'good homes'.  People/Parents often don't behave the same way when other people are around than they do when children are at home when there's no one to see what the dynamic is really like.  I've seen it in my own life and in things I've heard from others.  What my look like a happy home from the outside could be miserable and lonely for the child.  Then when people grow up they can't remember it, don't know there was anything wrong. Most people bury the memories 
            Often I think the idea of a traumatic childhood is thought of as someone who was sexually abused or other of the extreme ends of this area but years of little things like being criticized or not being allowed to express oneself build up to cause terrible lifelong damage.  I think there's many things that take place in 'good' homes that destroy the child from being the person he or she needs to be allowed to be. I didn't come from a broken home or poor home or anything like that, there was a lot of enjoyment in my childhood too, but I still grew to be miserable and twisted and suffering with self hatred because of negativity during my early life but once I'd grown up I had long forgotten and and no idea understanding of what was wrong inside me even though the hurt was still inside me. Drink and drugs allowe d me to free myself for a time. 

Luke



On 9/23/07, simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote: 
This maybe true, but being an addict or ex addict I have had plenty of friends who came from very good homes. Then there are the addicts that are very motivated and good in business you just don't hear about the last two because they manage to keep things covered up quite well and have the finances to keep them out of trouble and out of the public eye. As an example, the guy who I developed a habit with was a Dutch school teacher, he still had a good relationship with his family and had a "normal" life other than the fact that he was addicted to heroin. 





 



24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail. Learn more 


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From hslotsof at phantom.com  Mon Oct  1 16:05:24 2007
From: hslotsof at phantom.com (Howard Lotsof)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:05:24 -0400
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ervatamia hainanensis - South China plant
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710010704420.4167@ace.sift.us>
References: <20071001005247.1B967DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>
	<F98EC1B1-5F02-43A2-95E4-737A2824210E@phantom.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710010704420.4167@ace.sift.us>
Message-ID: <2C08A24B-E42F-4465-94D7-DA414A61FF1F@phantom.com>

Sorry Chris,

Don't know what happened. I have been having problems with the list  
and my mail server (mail for mac).

Hope this helps.

Zhongguo Zhong Yao Za Zhi. 2007 Jul;32(13):1296-9.
Links
[Study on chemical constituents in rhigome of Ervatamia hainanensis]

[Article in Chinese]

Liang S, Chen HS, Jin YS, Jin L, Lu J, Du JL.
College of Pharmacy, Second Military Medical University, Shanghai  
200433, China.

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the chemical constituents of the rhizome of  
Ervatamia hainanensis. METHOD: The solvent extraction and silica  
column chromatography were used to separate the chemical  
constituents, and their structures were identified by physico  
chemical properties and spectra analysis. RESULT: Twelve compounds  
were isolated and their structures were identified as voacangine (1),  
ibogaine (2), ibogamine (3), coronaridine (4), 19-heyneanine (5), 19- 
epi-heyneanine (6), 3-hydroxyl coronaridine (7), coronaridine  
hydroxyindolenine (8), 3-(2-oxopropyl) coronaridine (9), vobasine  
(10), alpha-amyrin (11), alpha-amyrin acetate (12). CONCLUSION:  
Compounds 1, 2, 6, 11 and 12 were first found from this plant.
PMID: 17879729 [PubMed - in process]

Also see. http://english.biodiv.gov.cn/images_biodiv/resources/ 
medicinal-en.htm

Howard

On Oct 1, 2007, at 10:08 AM, Chris Jenks wrote:

>
>    Dear Howard,
>
>    I haven't been reading this list regularly at all, but I checked in
> enough to see that the list server was recently replaced. I seem to be
> getting messages again, but for some reason the one you just posted  
> didn't
> contain any text, except the three automatic lines below. I don't  
> know how
> Randy got your message and I didn't! Anyway, I would like to read your
> post if you could repost it and/or cc me directly.
>
>    Thanks,
>
>      Chris
>
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, Howard Lotsof wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
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>>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>>
>
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From gomorrhan at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  1 16:59:07 2007
From: gomorrhan at hotmail.com (Kevin Brady)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:59:07 -0700
Subject: [Ibogaine] ruminations on entheogens, addiction, and NA
In-Reply-To: <5c3c8a220710011224i4b9ab48am3153f2e22f12aa91@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071001005247.1B967DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>
	<5c3c8a220710011224i4b9ab48am3153f2e22f12aa91@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY121-W30F79840E1C0B326B73726A2AD0@phx.gbl>


More importantly (to me), how do I get some?Kevin G. Brady(415) 341-0022 (H)gomorrhan at hotmail.comwww.myspace.com/clear_objectives> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:24:55 -0400> From: hokkaidocrow at gmail.com> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ruminations on entheogens, addiction, and NA> > On 9/30/07, slowone at hush.ai <slowone at hush.ai> wrote:> > I'm glad I don't have a history of addiction and NA to lead me to> > struggle with my use of ayahuasca. That said, I have recently been> > thinking that my main reason for taking it is to share the ceremony> > with people I love so that I can hang out afterwards and have> > spontaneous conversations. This is because ayahuasca itself has> > been so wearing on me of late, showing me my death in my succumbing> > to fatigue and feelings of failure ('vine of death' is what> > ayahuasca means). So I have a sort of mirror-image problem to> > yours. Looks like both of us are signed up for the immediate future> > though.> > I didn't quite get what you were saying there... do you feel like your> ayahuasca usage is problematic in some way, or do you wonder if it's> getting to a problematic stage, or are you just reflecting on the> reasons you take it? If you don't mind my asking, about how often are> you taking it, and to what degree of effect?> > -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-> (][%] :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine :: [%][)> -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
_________________________________________________________________
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http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx
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From Matt at ITSupport.net  Mon Oct  1 18:48:06 2007
From: Matt at ITSupport.net (Matthew Shriver)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:48:06 -0600
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ervatamia hainanensis - South China plant
In-Reply-To: <2C08A24B-E42F-4465-94D7-DA414A61FF1F@phantom.com>
References: <20071001005247.1B967DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com><F98EC1B1-5F02-43A2-95E4-737A2824210E@phantom.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.0710010704420.4167@ace.sift.us>
	<2C08A24B-E42F-4465-94D7-DA414A61FF1F@phantom.com>
Message-ID: <00b901c8047d$226c38c0$3201a8c0@bluefiashly>

Hey that's not the same list of constituents I found when I googled it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstrac
tPlus&list_uids=17402121

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:17048586

http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medline/ebm/record/17048586/full_citation/%5B
Studies_on_constituents_from_root_and_stem_of_Ervatamia_hainanensis%5D

Unless ibogaine has a chemical name I am not aware of.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com] On
Behalf Of Howard Lotsof
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 2:05 PM
To: The Ibogaine List
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ervatamia hainanensis - South China plant

Sorry Chris,

Don't know what happened. I have been having problems with the list  
and my mail server (mail for mac).

Hope this helps.

Zhongguo Zhong Yao Za Zhi. 2007 Jul;32(13):1296-9.
Links
[Study on chemical constituents in rhigome of Ervatamia hainanensis]

[Article in Chinese]

Liang S, Chen HS, Jin YS, Jin L, Lu J, Du JL.
College of Pharmacy, Second Military Medical University, Shanghai  
200433, China.

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the chemical constituents of the rhizome of  
Ervatamia hainanensis. METHOD: The solvent extraction and silica  
column chromatography were used to separate the chemical  
constituents, and their structures were identified by physico  
chemical properties and spectra analysis. RESULT: Twelve compounds  
were isolated and their structures were identified as voacangine (1),  
ibogaine (2), ibogamine (3), coronaridine (4), 19-heyneanine (5), 19- 
epi-heyneanine (6), 3-hydroxyl coronaridine (7), coronaridine  
hydroxyindolenine (8), 3-(2-oxopropyl) coronaridine (9), vobasine  
(10), alpha-amyrin (11), alpha-amyrin acetate (12). CONCLUSION:  
Compounds 1, 2, 6, 11 and 12 were first found from this plant.
PMID: 17879729 [PubMed - in process]

Also see. http://english.biodiv.gov.cn/images_biodiv/resources/ 
medicinal-en.htm

Howard

On Oct 1, 2007, at 10:08 AM, Chris Jenks wrote:

>
>    Dear Howard,
>
>    I haven't been reading this list regularly at all, but I checked in
> enough to see that the list server was recently replaced. I seem to be
> getting messages again, but for some reason the one you just posted  
> didn't
> contain any text, except the three automatic lines below. I don't  
> know how
> Randy got your message and I didn't! Anyway, I would like to read your
> post if you could repost it and/or cc me directly.
>
>    Thanks,
>
>      Chris
>
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, Howard Lotsof wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
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>>
>
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From jenkster at resonance.org  Mon Oct  1 18:53:24 2007
From: jenkster at resonance.org (Chris Jenks)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:53:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ervatamia hainanensis - South China plant
In-Reply-To: <2C08A24B-E42F-4465-94D7-DA414A61FF1F@phantom.com>
References: <20071001005247.1B967DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com>
	<F98EC1B1-5F02-43A2-95E4-737A2824210E@phantom.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0710010704420.4167@ace.sift.us>
	<2C08A24B-E42F-4465-94D7-DA414A61FF1F@phantom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0710011552410.4167@ace.sift.us>


   Dear Howard,

   Thanks, it came through this time.

   Chris

On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, Howard Lotsof wrote:

> Sorry Chris,
>
> Don't know what happened. I have been having problems with the list
> and my mail server (mail for mac).
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Zhongguo Zhong Yao Za Zhi. 2007 Jul;32(13):1296-9.
> Links
> [Study on chemical constituents in rhigome of Ervatamia hainanensis]
>
> [Article in Chinese]
>
> Liang S, Chen HS, Jin YS, Jin L, Lu J, Du JL.
> College of Pharmacy, Second Military Medical University, Shanghai
> 200433, China.
>
> OBJECTIVE: To investigate the chemical constituents of the rhizome of
> Ervatamia hainanensis. METHOD: The solvent extraction and silica
> column chromatography were used to separate the chemical
> constituents, and their structures were identified by physico
> chemical properties and spectra analysis. RESULT: Twelve compounds
> were isolated and their structures were identified as voacangine (1),
> ibogaine (2), ibogamine (3), coronaridine (4), 19-heyneanine (5), 19-
> epi-heyneanine (6), 3-hydroxyl coronaridine (7), coronaridine
> hydroxyindolenine (8), 3-(2-oxopropyl) coronaridine (9), vobasine
> (10), alpha-amyrin (11), alpha-amyrin acetate (12). CONCLUSION:
> Compounds 1, 2, 6, 11 and 12 were first found from this plant.
> PMID: 17879729 [PubMed - in process]
>
> Also see. http://english.biodiv.gov.cn/images_biodiv/resources/
> medicinal-en.htm
>
> Howard
>
> On Oct 1, 2007, at 10:08 AM, Chris Jenks wrote:
>
>>
>>    Dear Howard,
>>
>>    I haven't been reading this list regularly at all, but I checked in
>> enough to see that the list server was recently replaced. I seem to be
>> getting messages again, but for some reason the one you just posted
>> didn't
>> contain any text, except the three automatic lines below. I don't
>> know how
>> Randy got your message and I didn't! Anyway, I would like to read your
>> post if you could repost it and/or cc me directly.
>>
>>    Thanks,
>>
>>      Chris
>>
>> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, Howard Lotsof wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>>>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>>>
>>
>>   -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>>   -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>


From Ulrich.Hugel at prontomail.com  Mon Oct  1 19:18:44 2007
From: Ulrich.Hugel at prontomail.com (Ulrich Hugel)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:18:44 -0700
Subject: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS
Message-ID: <49BA2BC703579C248A7975BCA1547084@Ulrich.Hugel.prontomail.com>

Beware: The ears have walls!

Dana,
I'm rather disappointed in the negativity of your response.
I'm sorry that many of your friends died when you were in ACT UP. 
But do you KNOW that they were doing LDN as described and it didn't 
help? I doubt it. So your statement "If there was something to it, 
about 300 people from ACT UP wouldn't have died while I was going to 
their meetings." is meaningless beyond being an expression of your 
pain about all those people dying.

Yes, I agree that ibogaine is great stuff. Too bad I have to pay 
over $2000 a dose if I get lucky enough to find all the hoops that 
need to be jumped thru to make even that happen. It feels to me that 
the ibogaine "treatment community" is financially exploiting the 
pain and desperation of addicts in many cases.
I've had experience with ibogaine and it does have some useful 
effects. I wish I could get more. But it's not some kind of miracle 
cure with paranormal powers to forever cure whatever ails you and 
make the rest of your life all peaches and cream after just 1 or 2 
treatments. Too bad I had to spend all my savings for 1 dose, the 
effects of which soon wore off. 
LDN can be had in the US without a prescription for less than $1/day.

To put it mildly, I'm no fan of the pharmaceutical industry or the 
FDA. This implication that I'm trying to promote DuPont is just 
ignorant crap on your part. Naltrexone is off patent, available as a 
generic. And no, the pharmaceutical industry does not have 
the "resources" to promote LDN. LDN is an unapproved use for 
naltrexone, and for a pharmaceutical company to promote it is a 
violation of the law that the FDA would immediately and vigorously 
prosecute. Being off-patent, no pharmco is going to spend the $100M+ 
to get FDA approval.
The promotion of LDN is a grass roots effort. I would have thought 
that of all people, someone like yourself would appreciate that. 

Lastly, I was hoping that some folks might get the point that LDN 
might increase endorphin levels even in those who do not have 
cancer, MS etc. Many people become addicts by self medicating 
chronic suffering due to a constitutionally low endorphin tone. 
Considering the appalling cost and lack of availability of Iboga, 
LDN could be a useful option for some people - not for addiction 
interruption, but to help to live straight more comfortably - by 
improving the underlying problem that led to addiction in the first 
place.

Ulrich


Dana Beal wrote:

I don't know. They already had something like this for AIDS when I  
was in ACT UP. If there was something to it, about 300 people from  
ACT UP wouldn't have died while I was going to their meetings.

That was before the anti-retrovirals. Anyway, I was under the  
impression Ilah was on methadone the whole time, although I heard 
at  
her funeral that she had weaned herself off before her most recent  
illness.

I think the effects we're seeing on hepatitis with ibogaine are a 
lot  
more dramatic-- a lot more like the one treatment or several having 
a  
really dramatic effect on addiction-- than any maintenance type  
approach that you seem to be advocating here with trexan. I think  
ibogaine should be available as a primary treatment for hepatitis C  
and prophylaxis against development of liver cancer that often  
results from hep C. I keep trying to get people to try it instead 
of  
interferon, which often doesn't work, but wreaks havoc on the body.

Trexan is a Dupont product I believe. I think they have all the  
resources they need to promote it without your assistance.

Dana/cnw


On Sep 29, 2007, at 2:50 PM, Ulrich Hugel wrote:

> Hi folks,
> I'm a newbie here and I just read a post about the woman dying of
> liver cancer. I wanted to share something pretty amazing I learned
> recently:
> www.lowdosenaltrexone.org
> Apparently naltrexone, 3-4mg once a day at bed time has had some
> truly remarkable success in reversing and putting into remission
> advanced, metastasized, conventional treatment resistant cancers
> including pancreatic, liver, renal, breast, melanoma etc. Something
> like 20-30% in a series of 300 patients had complete remission, and
> another 30% stopped progression.
> It stops CD4 counts from dropping in AIDS, is said to have 80%
> success in putting MS into remission, and is helpful in
> CFIDS/fibromyalgia and rheumatoid arthritis.
> In all these conditions endorphin levels are low, and endorphins 
are
> the main signaling molecules that "orchestrate" the immune system.
> The way low dose naltrexone works is by blocking endorphins for a 
few
> hours before the normal surge of endorphin production by the
> hypothalamus in the last third of the night. This causes a rebound
> increase in endorphins which restores proper immune function.
> Unfortunately, LDN can't be used by people currently dependant on
> opiates. That's where the Iboga comes in.
>
> Ulrich




 "Men stumble over the truth from time to time, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."


From hslotsof at phantom.com  Mon Oct  1 20:27:03 2007
From: hslotsof at phantom.com (Howard Lotsof)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:27:03 -0400
Subject: [Ibogaine] Ervatamia hainanensis - South China plant
In-Reply-To: <00b901c8047d$226c38c0$3201a8c0@bluefiashly>
References: <20071001005247.1B967DA81F@mailserver7.hushmail.com><F98EC1B1-5F02-43A2-95E4-737A2824210E@phantom.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.0710010704420.4167@ace.sift.us>
	<2C08A24B-E42F-4465-94D7-DA414A61FF1F@phantom.com>
	<00b901c8047d$226c38c0$3201a8c0@bluefiashly>
Message-ID: <FB0279BA-0437-4E4E-ABD9-E6C76FEB0BBF@phantom.com>

Hi Matt,

All your citations are from a 2006 article, See 2007 article.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

Then enter search term ibogaine.

Howard

On Oct 1, 2007, at 6:48 PM, Matthew Shriver wrote:

> Hey that's not the same list of constituents I found when I googled  
> it.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez? 
> cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstrac
> tPlus&list_uids=17402121
>
> http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:17048586
>
> http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medline/ebm/record/17048586/ 
> full_citation/%5B
> Studies_on_constituents_from_root_and_stem_of_Ervatamia_hainanensis%5D
>
> Unless ibogaine has a chemical name I am not aware of.
>
> Matt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com [mailto:ibogaine- 
> bounces at mindvox.com] On
> Behalf Of Howard Lotsof
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 2:05 PM
> To: The Ibogaine List
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Ervatamia hainanensis - South China plant
>
> Sorry Chris,
>
> Don't know what happened. I have been having problems with the list
> and my mail server (mail for mac).
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Zhongguo Zhong Yao Za Zhi. 2007 Jul;32(13):1296-9.
> Links
> [Study on chemical constituents in rhigome of Ervatamia hainanensis]
>
> [Article in Chinese]
>
> Liang S, Chen HS, Jin YS, Jin L, Lu J, Du JL.
> College of Pharmacy, Second Military Medical University, Shanghai
> 200433, China.
>
> OBJECTIVE: To investigate the chemical constituents of the rhizome of
> Ervatamia hainanensis. METHOD: The solvent extraction and silica
> column chromatography were used to separate the chemical
> constituents, and their structures were identified by physico
> chemical properties and spectra analysis. RESULT: Twelve compounds
> were isolated and their structures were identified as voacangine (1),
> ibogaine (2), ibogamine (3), coronaridine (4), 19-heyneanine (5), 19-
> epi-heyneanine (6), 3-hydroxyl coronaridine (7), coronaridine
> hydroxyindolenine (8), 3-(2-oxopropyl) coronaridine (9), vobasine
> (10), alpha-amyrin (11), alpha-amyrin acetate (12). CONCLUSION:
> Compounds 1, 2, 6, 11 and 12 were first found from this plant.
> PMID: 17879729 [PubMed - in process]
>
> Also see. http://english.biodiv.gov.cn/images_biodiv/resources/
> medicinal-en.htm
>
> Howard
>
> On Oct 1, 2007, at 10:08 AM, Chris Jenks wrote:
>
>>
>>    Dear Howard,
>>
>>    I haven't been reading this list regularly at all, but I  
>> checked in
>> enough to see that the list server was recently replaced. I seem  
>> to be
>> getting messages again, but for some reason the one you just posted
>> didn't
>> contain any text, except the three automatic lines below. I don't
>> know how
>> Randy got your message and I didn't! Anyway, I would like to read  
>> your
>> post if you could repost it and/or cc me directly.
>>
>>    Thanks,
>>
>>      Chris
>>
>> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, Howard Lotsof wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>>>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>>>
>>
>>   -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>>   -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
>
>   -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>   -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
>
>
>   -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>   -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-



From xristine at comcast.net  Mon Oct  1 21:50:51 2007
From: xristine at comcast.net (xristine)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 18:50:51 -0700
Subject: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS
References: <49BA2BC703579C248A7975BCA1547084@Ulrich.Hugel.prontomail.com>
Message-ID: <00a801c80496$aa741940$47020718@INNOCOUS>

    Ulrich
Thank you so much for your comments as I  am quietly assimilating the way 
this list works.  I had wanted to say something quite the same as you did 
because I did feel the anger and pain of negativity from the post of Dana. 
Thank you for doing a good job clarifying your good message.

I got excited immediatly thinking of exactly what you were hoping to 
implicate.  I took a minute I was going to use researching the ibogaine 
issues and did a good bit of looking into using Naltrexone in the novel 
way.Funny thing is that today I also had called a University Study doing 
work with addicts and (Its paid too)they are using medication for Meth 
withdrawal and maintenance.  I had thoughts of LDn in my brain while asking 
about their program and accidentally made a brain connection that went 
beyond my learniing.  I asked if it was Naltrexone, the meds they were going 
to use!! Then I realized what I had done.  They are going to use Dexi's and 
placebos.

I commented to the researcher that their study was doomed (laughing but 
serious) because anyone who gets a placebo is going to go to sleep and never 
return for the rest.

Oh, I am Xristine and have come for knowledge.  I have addicts on the left, 
right and middle if you know what I mean.  I am a very functional but 
yearning for growth for not just me but the left and right (my adult child 
and a good friend)

I am so glad to learn about Ibogaine but was also thrilled to find a pharm 
suggestion I had never seen and hope that sort of thing is open for 
discussion also.  I notice discussion of other plant medicines. Actually I 
made a comment in the form of a question to someone who compared plant meds 
to the use of opium.  I said isn't opium a plant med? (or sumpin like that)

Time to make dinner but thanks for putting me on your list and a happy hello 
to all of you; I'll give you our situation later when I sit down again. 
Meanwhile I am enjoying the variety on this list.

Xristine

I will be making a doctor appointment and giving my best promotion to get a 
prescription.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ulrich Hugel" <Ulrich.Hugel at prontomail.com>
To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS


> Beware: The ears have walls!
>
> Dana,
> I'm rather disappointed in the negativity of your response.
> I'm sorry that many of your friends died when you were in ACT UP.
> But do you KNOW that they were doing LDN as described and it didn't
> help? I doubt it. So your statement "If there was something to it,
> about 300 people from ACT UP wouldn't have died while I was going to
> their meetings." is meaningless beyond being an expression of your
> pain about all those people dying.
>
> Yes, I agree that ibogaine is great stuff. Too bad I have to pay
> over $2000 a dose if I get lucky enough to find all the hoops that
> need to be jumped thru to make even that happen. It feels to me that
> the ibogaine "treatment community" is financially exploiting the
> pain and desperation of addicts in many cases.
> I've had experience with ibogaine and it does have some useful
> effects. I wish I could get more. But it's not some kind of miracle
> cure with paranormal powers to forever cure whatever ails you and
> make the rest of your life all peaches and cream after just 1 or 2
> treatments. Too bad I had to spend all my savings for 1 dose, the
> effects of which soon wore off.
> LDN can be had in the US without a prescription for less than $1/day.
>
> To put it mildly, I'm no fan of the pharmaceutical industry or the
> FDA. This implication that I'm trying to promote DuPont is just
> ignorant crap on your part. Naltrexone is off patent, available as a
> generic. And no, the pharmaceutical industry does not have
> the "resources" to promote LDN. LDN is an unapproved use for
> naltrexone, and for a pharmaceutical company to promote it is a
> violation of the law that the FDA would immediately and vigorously
> prosecute. Being off-patent, no pharmco is going to spend the $100M+
> to get FDA approval.
> The promotion of LDN is a grass roots effort. I would have thought
> that of all people, someone like yourself would appreciate that.
>
> Lastly, I was hoping that some folks might get the point that LDN
> might increase endorphin levels even in those who do not have
> cancer, MS etc. Many people become addicts by self medicating
> chronic suffering due to a constitutionally low endorphin tone.
> Considering the appalling cost and lack of availability of Iboga,
> LDN could be a useful option for some people - not for addiction
> interruption, but to help to live straight more comfortably - by
> improving the underlying problem that led to addiction in the first
> place.
>
> Ulrich
>
>
> Dana Beal wrote:
>
> I don't know. They already had something like this for AIDS when I
> was in ACT UP. If there was something to it, about 300 people from
> ACT UP wouldn't have died while I was going to their meetings.
>
> That was before the anti-retrovirals. Anyway, I was under the
> impression Ilah was on methadone the whole time, although I heard
> at
> her funeral that she had weaned herself off before her most recent
> illness.
>
> I think the effects we're seeing on hepatitis with ibogaine are a
> lot
> more dramatic-- a lot more like the one treatment or several having
> a
> really dramatic effect on addiction-- than any maintenance type
> approach that you seem to be advocating here with trexan. I think
> ibogaine should be available as a primary treatment for hepatitis C
> and prophylaxis against development of liver cancer that often
> results from hep C. I keep trying to get people to try it instead
> of
> interferon, which often doesn't work, but wreaks havoc on the body.
>
> Trexan is a Dupont product I believe. I think they have all the
> resources they need to promote it without your assistance.
>
> Dana/cnw
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2007, at 2:50 PM, Ulrich Hugel wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>> I'm a newbie here and I just read a post about the woman dying of
>> liver cancer. I wanted to share something pretty amazing I learned
>> recently:
>> www.lowdosenaltrexone.org
>> Apparently naltrexone, 3-4mg once a day at bed time has had some
>> truly remarkable success in reversing and putting into remission
>> advanced, metastasized, conventional treatment resistant cancers
>> including pancreatic, liver, renal, breast, melanoma etc. Something
>> like 20-30% in a series of 300 patients had complete remission, and
>> another 30% stopped progression.
>> It stops CD4 counts from dropping in AIDS, is said to have 80%
>> success in putting MS into remission, and is helpful in
>> CFIDS/fibromyalgia and rheumatoid arthritis.
>> In all these conditions endorphin levels are low, and endorphins
> are
>> the main signaling molecules that "orchestrate" the immune system.
>> The way low dose naltrexone works is by blocking endorphins for a
> few
>> hours before the normal surge of endorphin production by the
>> hypothalamus in the last third of the night. This causes a rebound
>> increase in endorphins which restores proper immune function.
>> Unfortunately, LDN can't be used by people currently dependant on
>> opiates. That's where the Iboga comes in.
>>
>> Ulrich
>
>
>
>
> "Men stumble over the truth from time to time, but most pick themselves up 
> and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- 



From Matt at ITSupport.net  Mon Oct  1 22:54:11 2007
From: Matt at ITSupport.net (Matthew Shriver)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:54:11 -0600
Subject: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS
In-Reply-To: <00a801c80496$aa741940$47020718@INNOCOUS>
References: <49BA2BC703579C248A7975BCA1547084@Ulrich.Hugel.prontomail.com>
	<00a801c80496$aa741940$47020718@INNOCOUS>
Message-ID: <00c301c8049f$82fe1560$3201a8c0@bluefiashly>

Hi Xristine

Welcome to the list.  I saw your post about the opium question and yes I
would say it is a plant medicine.  I have never in my life experienced a
better analgesic than opiates.  But (at the risk of putting incorrect words
in someone else's mouth) what I think that elfstone was emphasizing in that
post was the distinction between what are considered entheogens and what are
not.  Natural does not an entheogen make.  Coffee is from a natural source,
tobacco is a plant, but that does not make caffeine and nicotine entheogens.


As to the rules about what can be discussed I believe they are:
1)Topic must relate to ibogaine or
2)Topic must relate to P.K. Dick or
3)Post must be a demand to be removed from the list

That's pretty much it really.  And of course if you don't feel like talking
about ibogaine or P.K. Dick you can also discuss pretty much anything else
you like. 

Actually the real list purpose is here if you really want to know:

http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/List/index.html

Matt



-----Original Message-----
From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com] On
Behalf Of xristine
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:51 PM
To: The Ibogaine List
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS

    Ulrich
Thank you so much for your comments as I  am quietly assimilating the way 
this list works.  I had wanted to say something quite the same as you did 
because I did feel the anger and pain of negativity from the post of Dana. 
Thank you for doing a good job clarifying your good message.

I got excited immediatly thinking of exactly what you were hoping to 
implicate.  I took a minute I was going to use researching the ibogaine 
issues and did a good bit of looking into using Naltrexone in the novel 
way.Funny thing is that today I also had called a University Study doing 
work with addicts and (Its paid too)they are using medication for Meth 
withdrawal and maintenance.  I had thoughts of LDn in my brain while asking 
about their program and accidentally made a brain connection that went 
beyond my learniing.  I asked if it was Naltrexone, the meds they were going

to use!! Then I realized what I had done.  They are going to use Dexi's and 
placebos.

I commented to the researcher that their study was doomed (laughing but 
serious) because anyone who gets a placebo is going to go to sleep and never

return for the rest.

Oh, I am Xristine and have come for knowledge.  I have addicts on the left, 
right and middle if you know what I mean.  I am a very functional but 
yearning for growth for not just me but the left and right (my adult child 
and a good friend)

I am so glad to learn about Ibogaine but was also thrilled to find a pharm 
suggestion I had never seen and hope that sort of thing is open for 
discussion also.  I notice discussion of other plant medicines. Actually I 
made a comment in the form of a question to someone who compared plant meds 
to the use of opium.  I said isn't opium a plant med? (or sumpin like that)

Time to make dinner but thanks for putting me on your list and a happy hello

to all of you; I'll give you our situation later when I sit down again. 
Meanwhile I am enjoying the variety on this list.

Xristine

I will be making a doctor appointment and giving my best promotion to get a 
prescription.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ulrich Hugel" <Ulrich.Hugel at prontomail.com>
To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS


> Beware: The ears have walls!
>
> Dana,
> I'm rather disappointed in the negativity of your response.
> I'm sorry that many of your friends died when you were in ACT UP.
> But do you KNOW that they were doing LDN as described and it didn't
> help? I doubt it. So your statement "If there was something to it,
> about 300 people from ACT UP wouldn't have died while I was going to
> their meetings." is meaningless beyond being an expression of your
> pain about all those people dying.
>
> Yes, I agree that ibogaine is great stuff. Too bad I have to pay
> over $2000 a dose if I get lucky enough to find all the hoops that
> need to be jumped thru to make even that happen. It feels to me that
> the ibogaine "treatment community" is financially exploiting the
> pain and desperation of addicts in many cases.
> I've had experience with ibogaine and it does have some useful
> effects. I wish I could get more. But it's not some kind of miracle
> cure with paranormal powers to forever cure whatever ails you and
> make the rest of your life all peaches and cream after just 1 or 2
> treatments. Too bad I had to spend all my savings for 1 dose, the
> effects of which soon wore off.
> LDN can be had in the US without a prescription for less than $1/day.
>
> To put it mildly, I'm no fan of the pharmaceutical industry or the
> FDA. This implication that I'm trying to promote DuPont is just
> ignorant crap on your part. Naltrexone is off patent, available as a
> generic. And no, the pharmaceutical industry does not have
> the "resources" to promote LDN. LDN is an unapproved use for
> naltrexone, and for a pharmaceutical company to promote it is a
> violation of the law that the FDA would immediately and vigorously
> prosecute. Being off-patent, no pharmco is going to spend the $100M+
> to get FDA approval.
> The promotion of LDN is a grass roots effort. I would have thought
> that of all people, someone like yourself would appreciate that.
>
> Lastly, I was hoping that some folks might get the point that LDN
> might increase endorphin levels even in those who do not have
> cancer, MS etc. Many people become addicts by self medicating
> chronic suffering due to a constitutionally low endorphin tone.
> Considering the appalling cost and lack of availability of Iboga,
> LDN could be a useful option for some people - not for addiction
> interruption, but to help to live straight more comfortably - by
> improving the underlying problem that led to addiction in the first
> place.
>
> Ulrich
>
>
> Dana Beal wrote:
>
> I don't know. They already had something like this for AIDS when I
> was in ACT UP. If there was something to it, about 300 people from
> ACT UP wouldn't have died while I was going to their meetings.
>
> That was before the anti-retrovirals. Anyway, I was under the
> impression Ilah was on methadone the whole time, although I heard
> at
> her funeral that she had weaned herself off before her most recent
> illness.
>
> I think the effects we're seeing on hepatitis with ibogaine are a
> lot
> more dramatic-- a lot more like the one treatment or several having
> a
> really dramatic effect on addiction-- than any maintenance type
> approach that you seem to be advocating here with trexan. I think
> ibogaine should be available as a primary treatment for hepatitis C
> and prophylaxis against development of liver cancer that often
> results from hep C. I keep trying to get people to try it instead
> of
> interferon, which often doesn't work, but wreaks havoc on the body.
>
> Trexan is a Dupont product I believe. I think they have all the
> resources they need to promote it without your assistance.
>
> Dana/cnw
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2007, at 2:50 PM, Ulrich Hugel wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>> I'm a newbie here and I just read a post about the woman dying of
>> liver cancer. I wanted to share something pretty amazing I learned
>> recently:
>> www.lowdosenaltrexone.org
>> Apparently naltrexone, 3-4mg once a day at bed time has had some
>> truly remarkable success in reversing and putting into remission
>> advanced, metastasized, conventional treatment resistant cancers
>> including pancreatic, liver, renal, breast, melanoma etc. Something
>> like 20-30% in a series of 300 patients had complete remission, and
>> another 30% stopped progression.
>> It stops CD4 counts from dropping in AIDS, is said to have 80%
>> success in putting MS into remission, and is helpful in
>> CFIDS/fibromyalgia and rheumatoid arthritis.
>> In all these conditions endorphin levels are low, and endorphins
> are
>> the main signaling molecules that "orchestrate" the immune system.
>> The way low dose naltrexone works is by blocking endorphins for a
> few
>> hours before the normal surge of endorphin production by the
>> hypothalamus in the last third of the night. This causes a rebound
>> increase in endorphins which restores proper immune function.
>> Unfortunately, LDN can't be used by people currently dependant on
>> opiates. That's where the Iboga comes in.
>>
>> Ulrich
>
>
>
>
> "Men stumble over the truth from time to time, but most pick themselves up

> and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- 


  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
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  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-




From Ulrich.Hugel at prontomail.com  Mon Oct  1 23:03:43 2007
From: Ulrich.Hugel at prontomail.com (Ulrich Hugel)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:03:43 -0700
Subject: [Ibogaine] Xristine LDN and cancer, AIDS
Message-ID: <D4D6E2B19996D2F4B8CF7DD1AC4B34A3@Ulrich.Hugel.prontomail.com>

Hi Xristine,

Good to hear from you. Actually, I wasn't even advocating anything 
in my original post about LDN, I was just sharing some interesting 
information I found that might be useful to someone. I'm glad that 
you picked up on it :-)

About the university study, I have no doubt that dexedrine would 
help meth withdrawal, just like heroin is very effective in 
relieving heroin withdrawal ;-)

Here's my take on the "sacred" plant - opium poppy thing. Sacredness 
is not an inherent quality of something, it's an attitude that one 
chooses to have about something. So elfstone likes entheogens and 
doesn't like opiates. Both (types) are plants that have been used 
traditionally for thousands of years and both have useful effects. 
Now I agree that entheogens are good for the soul and interesting to 
the mind and don't lead to a physical dependance with horrible 
withdrawal symptoms, but for someone in severe pain, opium may well 
be considered sacred in giving blessed relief. 
And it doesn't really matter if the molecule is synthetic or found 
in a plant. Synthetic opiates do the same thing as opium, LSD does 
the same thing as magic mushrooms, amphetamines do the same thing as 
khat. 

I hope you enjoy your dinner; keep in touch.

Ulrich



 "Men stumble over the truth from time to time, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."


From xristine at comcast.net  Mon Oct  1 23:24:33 2007
From: xristine at comcast.net (xristine)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:24:33 -0700
Subject: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS
References: <49BA2BC703579C248A7975BCA1547084@Ulrich.Hugel.prontomail.com><00a801c80496$aa741940$47020718@INNOCOUS>
	<00c301c8049f$82fe1560$3201a8c0@bluefiashly>
Message-ID: <00b301c804a3$c1046450$47020718@INNOCOUS>

ehhmmm uhh, okay just tell me please what is PK Dick?
thanks,
Xristine
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matthew Shriver" <Matt at ITSupport.net>
To: "'The Ibogaine List'" <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS


> Hi Xristine
>
> Welcome to the list.  I saw your post about the opium question and yes I
> would say it is a plant medicine.  I have never in my life experienced a
> better analgesic than opiates.  But (at the risk of putting incorrect 
> words
> in someone else's mouth) what I think that elfstone was emphasizing in 
> that
> post was the distinction between what are considered entheogens and what 
> are
> not.  Natural does not an entheogen make.  Coffee is from a natural 
> source,
> tobacco is a plant, but that does not make caffeine and nicotine 
> entheogens.
>
>
> As to the rules about what can be discussed I believe they are:
> 1)Topic must relate to ibogaine or
> 2)Topic must relate to P.K. Dick or
> 3)Post must be a demand to be removed from the list
>
> That's pretty much it really.  And of course if you don't feel like 
> talking
> about ibogaine or P.K. Dick you can also discuss pretty much anything else
> you like.
>
> Actually the real list purpose is here if you really want to know:
>
> http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/List/index.html
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com] 
> On
> Behalf Of xristine
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:51 PM
> To: The Ibogaine List
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS
>
>    Ulrich
> Thank you so much for your comments as I  am quietly assimilating the way
> this list works.  I had wanted to say something quite the same as you did
> because I did feel the anger and pain of negativity from the post of Dana.
> Thank you for doing a good job clarifying your good message.
>
> I got excited immediatly thinking of exactly what you were hoping to
> implicate.  I took a minute I was going to use researching the ibogaine
> issues and did a good bit of looking into using Naltrexone in the novel
> way.Funny thing is that today I also had called a University Study doing
> work with addicts and (Its paid too)they are using medication for Meth
> withdrawal and maintenance.  I had thoughts of LDn in my brain while 
> asking
> about their program and accidentally made a brain connection that went
> beyond my learniing.  I asked if it was Naltrexone, the meds they were 
> going
>
> to use!! Then I realized what I had done.  They are going to use Dexi's 
> and
> placebos.
>
> I commented to the researcher that their study was doomed (laughing but
> serious) because anyone who gets a placebo is going to go to sleep and 
> never
>
> return for the rest.
>
> Oh, I am Xristine and have come for knowledge.  I have addicts on the 
> left,
> right and middle if you know what I mean.  I am a very functional but
> yearning for growth for not just me but the left and right (my adult child
> and a good friend)
>
> I am so glad to learn about Ibogaine but was also thrilled to find a pharm
> suggestion I had never seen and hope that sort of thing is open for
> discussion also.  I notice discussion of other plant medicines. Actually I
> made a comment in the form of a question to someone who compared plant 
> meds
> to the use of opium.  I said isn't opium a plant med? (or sumpin like 
> that)
>
> Time to make dinner but thanks for putting me on your list and a happy 
> hello
>
> to all of you; I'll give you our situation later when I sit down again.
> Meanwhile I am enjoying the variety on this list.
>
> Xristine
>
> I will be making a doctor appointment and giving my best promotion to get 
> a
> prescription.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ulrich Hugel" <Ulrich.Hugel at prontomail.com>
> To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 4:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS
>
>
>> Beware: The ears have walls!
>>
>> Dana,
>> I'm rather disappointed in the negativity of your response.
>> I'm sorry that many of your friends died when you were in ACT UP.
>> But do you KNOW that they were doing LDN as described and it didn't
>> help? I doubt it. So your statement "If there was something to it,
>> about 300 people from ACT UP wouldn't have died while I was going to
>> their meetings." is meaningless beyond being an expression of your
>> pain about all those people dying.
>>
>> Yes, I agree that ibogaine is great stuff. Too bad I have to pay
>> over $2000 a dose if I get lucky enough to find all the hoops that
>> need to be jumped thru to make even that happen. It feels to me that
>> the ibogaine "treatment community" is financially exploiting the
>> pain and desperation of addicts in many cases.
>> I've had experience with ibogaine and it does have some useful
>> effects. I wish I could get more. But it's not some kind of miracle
>> cure with paranormal powers to forever cure whatever ails you and
>> make the rest of your life all peaches and cream after just 1 or 2
>> treatments. Too bad I had to spend all my savings for 1 dose, the
>> effects of which soon wore off.
>> LDN can be had in the US without a prescription for less than $1/day.
>>
>> To put it mildly, I'm no fan of the pharmaceutical industry or the
>> FDA. This implication that I'm trying to promote DuPont is just
>> ignorant crap on your part. Naltrexone is off patent, available as a
>> generic. And no, the pharmaceutical industry does not have
>> the "resources" to promote LDN. LDN is an unapproved use for
>> naltrexone, and for a pharmaceutical company to promote it is a
>> violation of the law that the FDA would immediately and vigorously
>> prosecute. Being off-patent, no pharmco is going to spend the $100M+
>> to get FDA approval.
>> The promotion of LDN is a grass roots effort. I would have thought
>> that of all people, someone like yourself would appreciate that.
>>
>> Lastly, I was hoping that some folks might get the point that LDN
>> might increase endorphin levels even in those who do not have
>> cancer, MS etc. Many people become addicts by self medicating
>> chronic suffering due to a constitutionally low endorphin tone.
>> Considering the appalling cost and lack of availability of Iboga,
>> LDN could be a useful option for some people - not for addiction
>> interruption, but to help to live straight more comfortably - by
>> improving the underlying problem that led to addiction in the first
>> place.
>>
>> Ulrich
>>
>>
>> Dana Beal wrote:
>>
>> I don't know. They already had something like this for AIDS when I
>> was in ACT UP. If there was something to it, about 300 people from
>> ACT UP wouldn't have died while I was going to their meetings.
>>
>> That was before the anti-retrovirals. Anyway, I was under the
>> impression Ilah was on methadone the whole time, although I heard
>> at
>> her funeral that she had weaned herself off before her most recent
>> illness.
>>
>> I think the effects we're seeing on hepatitis with ibogaine are a
>> lot
>> more dramatic-- a lot more like the one treatment or several having
>> a
>> really dramatic effect on addiction-- than any maintenance type
>> approach that you seem to be advocating here with trexan. I think
>> ibogaine should be available as a primary treatment for hepatitis C
>> and prophylaxis against development of liver cancer that often
>> results from hep C. I keep trying to get people to try it instead
>> of
>> interferon, which often doesn't work, but wreaks havoc on the body.
>>
>> Trexan is a Dupont product I believe. I think they have all the
>> resources they need to promote it without your assistance.
>>
>> Dana/cnw
>>
>>
>> On Sep 29, 2007, at 2:50 PM, Ulrich Hugel wrote:
>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>> I'm a newbie here and I just read a post about the woman dying of
>>> liver cancer. I wanted to share something pretty amazing I learned
>>> recently:
>>> www.lowdosenaltrexone.org
>>> Apparently naltrexone, 3-4mg once a day at bed time has had some
>>> truly remarkable success in reversing and putting into remission
>>> advanced, metastasized, conventional treatment resistant cancers
>>> including pancreatic, liver, renal, breast, melanoma etc. Something
>>> like 20-30% in a series of 300 patients had complete remission, and
>>> another 30% stopped progression.
>>> It stops CD4 counts from dropping in AIDS, is said to have 80%
>>> success in putting MS into remission, and is helpful in
>>> CFIDS/fibromyalgia and rheumatoid arthritis.
>>> In all these conditions endorphin levels are low, and endorphins
>> are
>>> the main signaling molecules that "orchestrate" the immune system.
>>> The way low dose naltrexone works is by blocking endorphins for a
>> few
>>> hours before the normal surge of endorphin production by the
>>> hypothalamus in the last third of the night. This causes a rebound
>>> increase in endorphins which restores proper immune function.
>>> Unfortunately, LDN can't be used by people currently dependant on
>>> opiates. That's where the Iboga comes in.
>>>
>>> Ulrich
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Men stumble over the truth from time to time, but most pick themselves 
>> up
>
>> and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
>>
>>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
>> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
>
>  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
> (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine ::  [%][)
>  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=-
>
>
>
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From JUNKBOY64 at MSN.COM  Mon Oct  1 23:31:25 2007
From: JUNKBOY64 at MSN.COM (LEE)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 21:31:25 -0600
Subject: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS
References: <49BA2BC703579C248A7975BCA1547084@Ulrich.Hugel.prontomail.com><00a801c80496$aa741940$47020718@INNOCOUS>
	<00c301c8049f$82fe1560$3201a8c0@bluefiashly>
Message-ID: <BAY103-DAV42334B83E3E0B16DFF801A9AE0@phx.gbl>


I just googled p.k dick, and would like to read some of his work.. anyone have any favorites that he wrote?  I would love to be introduced to his work as, sadly I have not been introduced, and not wanting to be  tres gauch, would like an introduction... my spelling may be wrong, but the feeling is so right.......... where is grasshopper??? I liked his posts... he got me to open up on this list, along with the ever present randy, who I have heard does like candy.... anywho, im going to stop working and go eat... im a hungry.... & mordreds a hungry..... s.king dark tower series, susanna

unkyjizay

specializing in honda and yamaha motorcycle parts 1960-1989. if you need anything call or email, we can get any part you need. new, and used, even if the part is obsolete.


if someone you love is addicted to something (heroin, cocaine, meth, ect), google ibogaine.... its worth your time..... i promise....
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Matthew Shriver<mailto:Matt at ITSupport.net> 
  To: 'The Ibogaine List'<mailto:ibogaine at mindvox.com> 
  Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 8:54 PM
  Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS


  Hi Xristine

  Welcome to the list.  I saw your post about the opium question and yes I
  would say it is a plant medicine.  I have never in my life experienced a
  better analgesic than opiates.  But (at the risk of putting incorrect words
  in someone else's mouth) what I think that elfstone was emphasizing in that
  post was the distinction between what are considered entheogens and what are
  not.  Natural does not an entheogen make.  Coffee is from a natural source,
  tobacco is a plant, but that does not make caffeine and nicotine entheogens.


  As to the rules about what can be discussed I believe they are:
  1)Topic must relate to ibogaine or
  2)Topic must relate to P.K. Dick or
  3)Post must be a demand to be removed from the list

  That's pretty much it really.  And of course if you don't feel like talking
  about ibogaine or P.K. Dick you can also discuss pretty much anything else
  you like. 

  Actually the real list purpose is here if you really want to know:

  http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/List/index.html<http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/List/index.html>

  Matt



  -----Original Message-----
  From: ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com<mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com> [mailto:ibogaine-bounces at mindvox.com] On
  Behalf Of xristine
  Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:51 PM
  To: The Ibogaine List
  Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS

      Ulrich
  Thank you so much for your comments as I  am quietly assimilating the way 
  this list works.  I had wanted to say something quite the same as you did 
  because I did feel the anger and pain of negativity from the post of Dana. 
  Thank you for doing a good job clarifying your good message.

  I got excited immediatly thinking of exactly what you were hoping to 
  implicate.  I took a minute I was going to use researching the ibogaine 
  issues and did a good bit of looking into using Naltrexone in the novel 
  way.Funny thing is that today I also had called a University Study doing 
  work with addicts and (Its paid too)they are using medication for Meth 
  withdrawal and maintenance.  I had thoughts of LDn in my brain while asking 
  about their program and accidentally made a brain connection that went 
  beyond my learniing.  I asked if it was Naltrexone, the meds they were going

  to use!! Then I realized what I had done.  They are going to use Dexi's and 
  placebos.

  I commented to the researcher that their study was doomed (laughing but 
  serious) because anyone who gets a placebo is going to go to sleep and never

  return for the rest.

  Oh, I am Xristine and have come for knowledge.  I have addicts on the left, 
  right and middle if you know what I mean.  I am a very functional but 
  yearning for growth for not just me but the left and right (my adult child 
  and a good friend)

  I am so glad to learn about Ibogaine but was also thrilled to find a pharm 
  suggestion I had never seen and hope that sort of thing is open for 
  discussion also.  I notice discussion of other plant medicines. Actually I 
  made a comment in the form of a question to someone who compared plant meds 
  to the use of opium.  I said isn't opium a plant med? (or sumpin like that)

  Time to make dinner but thanks for putting me on your list and a happy hello

  to all of you; I'll give you our situation later when I sit down again. 
  Meanwhile I am enjoying the variety on this list.

  Xristine

  I will be making a doctor appointment and giving my best promotion to get a 
  prescription.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Ulrich Hugel" <Ulrich.Hugel at prontomail.com<mailto:Ulrich.Hugel at prontomail.com>>
  To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com<mailto:ibogaine at mindvox.com>>
  Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 4:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] LDN and cancer, AIDS


  > Beware: The ears have walls!
  >
  > Dana,
  > I'm rather disappointed in the negativity of your response.
  > I'm sorry that many of your friends died when you were in ACT UP.
  > But do you KNOW that they were doing LDN as described and it didn't
  > help? I doubt it. So your statement "If there was something to it,
  > about 300 people from ACT UP wouldn't have died while I was going to
  > their meetings." is meaningless beyond being an expression of your
  > pain about all those people dying.
  >
  > Yes, I agree that ibogaine is great stuff. Too bad I have to pay
  > over $2000 a dose if I get lucky enough to find all the hoops that
  > need to be jumped thru to make even that happen. It feels to me that
  > the ibogaine "treatment community" is financially exploiting the
  > pain and desperation of addicts in many cases.
  > I've had experience with ibogaine and it does have some useful
  > effects. I wish I could get more. But it's not some kind of miracle
  > cure with paranormal powers to forever cure whatever ails you and
  > make the rest of your life all peaches and cream after just 1 or 2
  > treatments. Too bad I had to spend all my savings for 1 dose, the
  > effects of which soon wore off.
  > LDN can be had in the US without a prescription for less than $1/day.
  >
  > To put it mildly, I'm no fan of the pharmaceutical industry or the
  > FDA. This implication that I'm trying to promote DuPont is just
  > ignorant crap on your part. Naltrexone is off patent, available as a
  > generic. And no, the pharmaceutical industry does not have
  > the "resources" to promote LDN. LDN is an unapproved use for
  > naltrexone, and for a pharmaceutical company to promote it is a
  > violation of the law that the FDA would immediately and vigorously
  > prosecute. Being off-patent, no pharmco is going to spend the $100M+
  > to get FDA approval.
  > The promotion of LDN is a grass roots effort. I would have thought
  > that of all people, someone like yourself would appreciate that.
  >
  > Lastly, I was hoping that some folks might get the point that LDN
  > might increase endorphin levels even in those who do not have
  > cancer, MS etc. Many people become addicts by self medicating
  > chronic suffering due to a constitutionally low endorphin tone.
  > Considering the appalling cost and lack of availability of Iboga,
  > LDN could be a useful option for some people - not for addiction
  > interruption, but to help to live straight more comfortably - by
  > improving the underlying problem that led to addiction in the first
  > place.
  >
  > Ulrich
  >
  >
  > Dana Beal wrote:
  >
  > I don't know. They already had something like this for AIDS when I
  > was in ACT UP. If there was something to it, about 300 people from
  > ACT UP wouldn't have died while I was going to their meetings.
  >
  > That was before the anti-retrovirals. Anyway, I was under the
  > impression Ilah was on methadone the whole time, although I heard
  > at
  > her funeral that she had weaned herself off before her most recent
  > illness.
  >
  > I think the effects we're seeing on hepatitis with ibogaine are a
  > lot
  > more dramatic-- a lot more like the one treatment or several having
  > a
  > really dramatic effect on addiction-- than any maintenance type
  > approach that you seem to be advocating here with trexan. I think
  > ibogaine should be available as a primary treatment for hepatitis C
  > and prophylaxis against development of liver cancer that often
  > results from hep C. I keep trying to get people to try it instead
  > of
  > interferon, which often doesn't work, but wreaks havoc on the body.
  >
  > Trexan is a Dupont product I believe. I think they have all the
  > resources they need to promote it without your assistance.
  >
  > Dana/cnw
  >
  >
  > On Sep 29, 2007, at 2:50 PM, Ulrich Hugel wrote:
  >
  >> Hi folks,
  >> I'm a newbie here and I just read a post about the woman dying of
  >> liver cancer. I wanted to share something pretty amazing I learned
  >> recently:
  >> www.lowdosenaltrexone.org<http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/>
  >> Apparently naltrexone, 3-4mg once a day at bed time has had some
  >> truly remarkable success in reversing and putting into remission
  >> advanced, metastasized, conventional treatment resistant cancers
  >> including pancreatic, liver, renal, breast, melanoma etc. Something
  >> like 20-30% in a series of 300 patients had complete remission, and
  >> another 30% stopped progression.
  >> It stops CD4 counts from dropping in AIDS, is said to have 80%
  >> success in putting MS into remission, and is helpful in
  >> CFIDS/fibromyalgia and rheumatoid arthritis.
  >> In all these conditions endorphin levels are low, and endorphins
  > are
  >> the main signaling molecules that "orchestrate" the immune system.
  >> The way low dose naltrexone works is by blocking endorphins for a
  > few
  >> hours before the normal surge of endorphin production by the
  >> hypothalamus in the last third of the night. This causes a rebound
  >> increase in endorphins which restores proper immune function.
  >> Unfortunately, LDN can't be used by people currently dependant on
  >> opiates. That's where the Iboga comes in.
  >>
  >> Ulrich
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > "Men stumble over the truth from time to time, but most pick themselves up

  > and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
  >
  >  -=[) ::::::: MindVox | Ibogaine | List Commands ::::::: (]=-
  > (][%]  :: http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine<http://mindvox.com/mailman/listinfo/ibogaine> ::  [%][)
  >  -=[) :::: Change Account Settings :: [Un]Subscribe :::: (]=- 


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