[Ibogaine] Boosters, low dose regimens, Bipolar, spiritual use

Melanie Gutierrez gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com
Thu May 17 14:17:08 EDT 2007


I've found a therapist in PHX although I live 4 hours from there, that does
use the hyperventelation.  Right now I'm working with a chiropractor that is
holistic and into well alot of stuff,  All I can say is thank you everyone,
for giving me leads to investigate.
Last night I did some deep breath work, under the stars during the new moon,
in front of the open fire pit in my back yard, with my faithful companion by
my side.  Wow It was a beautiful awesome night.  The energy was there, and
the powers of the universe entered me.  I dont know what My point is
really.   Things are looking up though.
Thanks for the info guys
Melanie


On 5/17/07, Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I did rebirthing for a while and my therapist kind of said holotropic is
> much more intense and takes longer to integrate. It must be very strong if
> it brings similar effects as lsd.  I didn't really like the hyperventilating
> thing with rebirthing but it did get me into an altered state. It is a handy
> technique though to know and you can do a milder form at home if you wish
> and get a nice bit of energy going.
>
> Luke
>
> On 5/16/07, Jeff Black <jefblac at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Holotropic Breathwork is more like hyperventilating, apparently similar
> > to some yogic breathing techniques. To induce a type of trance, as Luke
> > said, in order to access the subconscious. I'm sure it works, but It takes a
> > concerted effort and quite a while to reach a 'useful' state.  LSD was more
> > effective, but it got banned, so Grof improvised. But he worked out all his
> > theories during the years of LSD therapy and it makes some interesting
> > reading. Otto Rank was the father of the birth trauma, but Stan Grof is
> > certainly the godfather, and his theories go far beyond.
> >
> > On 5/16/07, Melanie Gutierrez < gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Didn't really have time to look up holotropic breath work, I've been
> > > reading the thing that Tom Riddle wrote.  But it sounds a lot like the
> > > breath work I already do for meditation.  When I can quiet my mind and do
> > > meditation.   Which isn't as often as I would like.  I have been able to
> > > pull some very assuring tarot cards to get me through this little rough
> > > spot.  So the universe is still trying to keep in contact and show me
> > > direction.
> > > Anyway...
> > > Wow he's a wordy guy, but because of that he gives a sincere
> > > description of what his experience with going to Gabon and having an
> > > initiation.  Pretty cool stuff.
> > > Mel
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 5/16/07, Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen at gmail.com >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Stan Grof developed a technique called holotropic breath work when
> > > > LSD was not allowed to be used anymore.  I think it's a deep breathing
> > > > technique something like rebirthing but more intense and is supposed to
> > > > bring about similar effect to the lsd trance and can be used for regression
> > > > and catharsis.
> > > >
> > > > Some of his books are very interesting and even though they are
> > > > about lsd his research has a lot in common with what takes place with
> > > > ibogaine I think. He talks about regression and childhood trauma, birth,
> > > > womb states, past lives and other psychic phenomenon.
> > > >
> > > > Funny, ibogaine brought back some feelings that I had with lsd years
> > > > ago. Not so much during the experince but later I recognised certain
> > > > feelings as similar to those I felt with lsd.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Luke
> > > >
> > > > On 5/15/07, Melanie Gutierrez <gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You know wierd, because thats the second time this weekish that
> > > > > someone's mentioned to me the use of LSD, both for differrent reasons.  Now
> > > > > I've done LSD 3 time, more as a teenager some 18 years ago.  I really dont
> > > > > remember any of my trips except they were pretty trippy.  Very big
> > > > > contemplation for me, I"ve been doing alot of reading.
> > > > > Melanie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  On 5/13/07, Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen at gmail.com >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Melanie,
> > > > > >                 Whatever your doing must be working if you have
> > > > > > memories starting at 1.  I'm pretty sure it's possible ibogaine could easily
> > > > > > bring you any birth stuff you might have. I was brought to that place even
> > > > > > though I had no intention or desire to go there. Makes me wonder what is
> > > > > > necessary to go through to be able to live a normal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                 I was reading Stan Grofs book about the therapy
> > > > > > using LSD with patients and some people had pre-birth relivings of being
> > > > > > invaded by toxic chemicals in the womb, maybe from mother smoking or
> > > > > > something.  A good deal of his work deals with the trauma of birth. Reading
> > > > > > his book it seems stuff like that is often relived in a symbolic way.  I
> > > > > > think it is similar with ibogaine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >               I had an experience of being in the womb which was
> > > > > > very pleasant. Of earlier stuff like conception I have only read of.  I
> > > > > > think I read about someone reliving being the sperm in the race to the egg
> > > > > > during an LSD therapy session.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Luke
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 5/11/07, Melanie Gutierrez <gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree with you Luke on many of these remarks.   I think alot
> > > > > > > of our (collectively) "problems" stem from somewhere starting from
> > > > > > > conception.  I would go as far to say that the condition of the mothers
> > > > > > > emotions while carrying a child have a great impact on how the fetus/child
> > > > > > > will later deal with things.  Then on to birth....then beginning life.
> > > > > > > One of my hopes for ibo is that some of that will be revealed
> > > > > > > to me.  Now my first early childhood memory begins at the age of 1 year, and
> > > > > > > in various forms of psychotherapy I've went though every thing memory
> > > > > > > wise at least twice since my earliest memory at 1year old.  Funny family
> > > > > > > discussions I've had and described things to my family and they say NO way
> > > > > > > you remember that, you were only 2 years old.....well guess what, it is
> > > > > > > possible.   So if Ibo can reveal to me conception, birth, up to 1 year old,
> > > > > > > hell I've pretty much dealt with the rest of the shit.
> > > > > > > My belief is, That "God"/the universe/budda....(the list goes
> > > > > > > on)....will never give you more than you can handle at any time (yeah old AA
> > > > > > > phrase), but I do believe it.
> > > > > > > More later
> > > > > > > Thanks Luke
> > > > > > > Melanie
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >  On 5/11/07, Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen at gmail.com
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I read Janov suggesting that bipolar is the result of some
> > > > > > > > types of birth trauma. The manic and the depression are the two sides of the
> > > > > > > > same trauma that would have been deeply inprinted on a biological level.
> > > > > > > > The manics high is the symptoms of the energetic optimistic part of the
> > > > > > > > event were success and the drive for completion was all followed by deep
> > > > > > > > despair and exhaustion when they failed to get through and all hope is lost.
> > > > > > > > They end up going through the same cycle in their symptoms later in life.
> > > > > > > > I'm not sure how much he's right but it makes sense to me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'd imagine you'd be talking about some very extreme levels
> > > > > > > > of trauma for people with strong bipolar symptoms. Though I think that there
> > > > > > > > are many levels of bipolar depression.  I sometimes seem to have a mild form
> > > > > > > > of it as I suffer depressions but I also get highs and peroids of lots of
> > > > > > > > energy and feel high and like doing lots of stuff. Personally I've found
> > > > > > > > that my deepest pathological problems can all so far be traced back to that
> > > > > > > > one event in my life. Of course lot of things happened in my life but the
> > > > > > > > physiological blueprint for my struggles and mood swings seem to have been
> > > > > > > > laid down from the begining.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure ibogaine could help with healing these
> > > > > > > > problems but I'm not sure how good an idea it is for some people to be
> > > > > > > > trying to do this as you might go through some horrendous places.  It makes
> > > > > > > > me wonder if ibogaine can heal some parts of the mind without having to
> > > > > > > > relive those moments or those negative feelings directly.  I've read of
> > > > > > > > people reliving events from an emotionally detached perspective with
> > > > > > > > ibogaine. Maybe some problems can be healed in a symbolic way without having
> > > > > > > > to regress directly to past events.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Luke
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 5/10/07, Nick Sandberg <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >  Hi Jeff,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was there too, I think! Was it in Red Lion Sq or
> > > > > > > > > somewhere near there?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > About bi-polar, I think maybe, from a psychological
> > > > > > > > > perspective, one could say that if the disorder is arising because of a lot
> > > > > > > > > of material being held down into the unconscious then maybe ibogaine could
> > > > > > > > > be effective. I don't know enough about bi-polar psychiatrically to give a
> > > > > > > > > meaningful answer, but I think it may be slightly more pathological than
> > > > > > > > > psych-. Then again, this doesn't really mean ibogaine couldn't help. I'm not
> > > > > > > > > so much help here! I think it's fair to say that it also could be quite
> > > > > > > > > risky and I imagine that you'd want to have gone down more traditional
> > > > > > > > > therapeutic roads first.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes, drugs have potential but I still see them more as a
> > > > > > > > > thing to be tried when other approaches have failed or not done enough.
> > > > > > > > > There is invariably a bit of a payback somewhere, in my experience, knowing
> > > > > > > > > a lot of people who've been into psychedelics, and seeing myself.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > About ketamine, I seem to remember from Dr K himself, karl
> > > > > > > > > jannson sometimes aka jan karlson, that it's actually one of the safest
> > > > > > > > > drugs of any class. They give it to 6 week old babies as anaesthetic for
> > > > > > > > > operations, so he said.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > All the best to you
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Nick
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > *From:* Jeff Black [mailto: jefblac at gmail.com]
> > > > > > > > > *Sent:* 10 May 2007 12:44
> > > > > > > > > *To:* ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > > > > > > > > *Subject: *Re: [Ibogaine] Boosters, low dose regimens,
> > > > > > > > > Bipolar, spiritual use
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sure - it was Dan Lieberman's talk years ago in London
> > > > > > > > > that got me interested. Before that I didn't know anything about ibogaine. I
> > > > > > > > > had read a lot about the psychotherapeutic work using LSD while it was
> > > > > > > > > legal, particularly people like Stan Grof. So my main motivation is the
> > > > > > > > > healing potential of psychedelics in general, of which ibogaine of course is
> > > > > > > > > a particularly fascinating case. It is a great shame that all that promising
> > > > > > > > > research ended so abruptly. Apparently there were thousands of studies going
> > > > > > > > > on around the world using psychedelics in the 50s and 60s. Now MAPS and
> > > > > > > > > others are managing to get one or two going again (and kudos to them) but
> > > > > > > > > nearly 50 years have been lost. Ironically, things like Ketamine, which have
> > > > > > > > > a recognized medical application are allowed in clinical trials, but a lot
> > > > > > > > > of potentially safer substances are banned. Anyway, good to see things
> > > > > > > > > finally changing for the better.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 5/9/07, simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >  Hi Jeff,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > May I ask what attracted you to ibogaine?
> > > > > > > > > > Did you hear about its anti addictive properties or some
> > > > > > > > > > thing other than that? I ask because I am interested in the motivation for
> > > > > > > > > > seeking ibogaine other than addiction. The majority of people I come into
> > > > > > > > > > contact with are addicts. Allot have experience with other entheogens. A
> > > > > > > > > > smaller group for trauma and psychological reasons.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Si.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > > > > > > > > From: Jeff Black < jefblac at gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 9 May, 2007 2:47:07 PM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Boosters, low dose regimens,
> > > > > > > > > > Bipolar, spiritual use
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Simon, yes, I'm just gathering information at present.
> > > > > > > > > > And the nature of the ibogaine world means much of it is anecdotal, but it
> > > > > > > > > > all helps to build a picture. Though I admit that I do feel drawn to the
> > > > > > > > > > idea that there is a healing potential in the plant beyond treatment for
> > > > > > > > > > addiction.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 5/9/07, simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk >
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >  Hi Jeff,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > From my understanding caution should be used when
> > > > > > > > > > > considering the use of ibogaine if you are bipolar. As to whether ibogaine
> > > > > > > > > > > has any positive effect on bipolar sufferers, I have yet to hear of personal
> > > > > > > > > > > experience or documented evidence.
> > > > > > > > > > > The only possible benefit may be the anti depressant
> > > > > > > > > > > effect. Because ibogaine works on multiple transmitter systems I would say
> > > > > > > > > > > its difficult to predict a single result or action.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Si.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Jeff Black < jefblac at gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 9 May, 2007 2:04:35 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Boosters, low dose regimens,
> > > > > > > > > > > Bipolar, spiritual use
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Paul, (and others), - thanks for your comments.
> > > > > > > > > > > Amazing really if ibogaine potentiates so many other substances. There was
> > > > > > > > > > > some discussion of benzos recently, I wonder if they fall into this
> > > > > > > > > > > category, one would assume so if Valerian does. Funnily enough I just took a
> > > > > > > > > > > capsule of that tonight for the first time in my life to see if it helps me
> > > > > > > > > > > sleep.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Other points - my bi-polar question was really about
> > > > > > > > > > > whether ibogaine is contraindicated in that case for the treatment of
> > > > > > > > > > > addiction, but your suggestion is that ibogaine may even help with the
> > > > > > > > > > > underlying bi-polar condition as well as the addiction. Interesting stuff.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Regarding the bark / HCL question, my own inclination
> > > > > > > > > > > was towards HCL, simply because it would seem safer (from what I have read).
> > > > > > > > > > > But it's not be the 'whole plant' and so may lack something. My concern
> > > > > > > > > > > about bark is due to the likely variance in samples - there are quite a few
> > > > > > > > > > > sources, compared to HCL at least. How do you know what you're dosing? Or do
> > > > > > > > > > > you just start small and work up?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On 5/9/07, Paul Brookshaw <jiggy9 at hotmail.co.uk >
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Any stimualnt, even Coffee. Anti-deprssants, also
> > > > > > > > > > > > found some things about
> > > > > > > > > > > > anti-coagulants.
> > > > > > > > > > > > To make a point here. Iboga has a stimulating effect
> > > > > > > > > > > > on most anelgesics. I
> > > > > > > > > > > > mean it makes them stronger.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I took 500mg of Paracetamol for a slight muscle ache
> > > > > > > > > > > > and it floored me for 3
> > > > > > > > > > > > hours. (After ingesting 15 grams of root bark, three
> > > > > > > > > > > > days later)
> > > > > > > > > > > > I also took after 4 days of ingestion of 1300mg of
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ibogaine Hcl, 30mg of
> > > > > > > > > > > > Codiene and threw up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I m,ight add it pinned my pupils for nearly five
> > > > > > > > > > > > hours.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The Hcl didn't make me throw though:)
> > > > > > > > > > > > First Opiod I have taken in fourteen months.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Made me iller than I required just for some pain.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I have now found that Amanita Muscaria and very low
> > > > > > > > > > > > dose Iboga works fine
> > > > > > > > > > > > for the pain I have sometimes in my back.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Seeing as most if not all our drugs come from
> > > > > > > > > > > > plants, ther is likely to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > some reaction to concoctions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I even found Iboga to enhance the effects of Wild
> > > > > > > > > > > > Lettuce and low dose
> > > > > > > > > > > > Valerian.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Life is about expression so expresss yourself.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Paul'
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Brad Hays" < bradleyheathhays at gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > >To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Boosters, low dose
> > > > > > > > > > > > regimens, Bipolar, spiritual use
> > > > > > > > > > > > >Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 03:19:43 -0400
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >What's the best ideas on what drugs that low doses
> > > > > > > > > > > > of iboga (or even a
> > > > > > > > > > > > >muther lode) would lower one's tolerance to,
> > > > > > > > > > > > besides the one's people are
> > > > > > > > > > > > >trying to get off of?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >On 5/8/07, Paul Brookshaw < jiggy9 at hotmail.co.uk >
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>I would just like to add that low dose
> > > > > > > > > > > > Iboga/Ibogaine should never be
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>attempted in conjunction with other drugs. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > effects of low dose Iboga
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>on
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>ones tolerance is felt vey quickly and should not
> > > > > > > > > > > > be attempted without
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>strict medical supervision. Ibogas ability to
> > > > > > > > > > > > lower tolerance to other
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>substances is probably it's bane.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>But who said life was easy.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>Be well.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>                                             Paul'
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >From: "Jeff Black" < jefblac at gmail.com >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >Reply-To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Boosters, low dose
> > > > > > > > > > > > regimens, Bipolar, spiritual
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>use
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:55:44 +0100
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >I would never take, or suggest any anyone else
> > > > > > > > > > > > take ibogaine alone, that
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >much is pretty clear. I was just wondering if
> > > > > > > > > > > > the problems that arise
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>are
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >due to the full 15-20 mg per kg dose, or if as
> > > > > > > > > > > > you say it is some type
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>of
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >allergic reaction that may also occur at low
> > > > > > > > > > > > doses. If you're not trying
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>to
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >combat withdrawal symptoms then it seems you
> > > > > > > > > > > > could use a lower dose and
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >still achieve some sort of breakthrough. My
> > > > > > > > > > > > other thought was the use of
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >regular, very low doses, as a sort of
> > > > > > > > > > > > anti-depressant, but if that usage
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >just gives a stimulant effect then you're not
> > > > > > > > > > > > really achieving anything.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >On 5/8/07, Randy Faulconer <bicuitboy714 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>          Hey Jeff, I take it you're in
> > > > > > > > > > > > England. I'll be glad to tell
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>you what I know about it. I just have to say
> > > > > > > > > > > > that taking Ibogaine by
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>yourself is not a good idea. Even at low doses
> > > > > > > > > > > > there can be problems.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>It looks to me like some people just might be
> > > > > > > > > > > > allergic to it or
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>something. (My opinion) Anyway there was a guy
> > > > > > > > > > > > on here last year that
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>did a lot of work on low dose sessions. I can't
> > > > > > > > > > > > remember Lee's last
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>name but I'm sure somebody here will. I can't
> > > > > > > > > > > > even remember the name
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>of his book, but it's pretty good. Somebody
> > > > > > > > > > > > help me out here. OOOOO
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>it's Albert I think. Google Lee Albert and see
> > > > > > > > > > > > what you get.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>         About the bi-polar thing? Patrick
> > > > > > > > > > > > readily admits that he's
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>bi-polar and I'm damn near border line I think,
> > > > > > > > > > > > so I would venture to
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>say that a bunch of bi-polar people have been
> > > > > > > > > > > > treated so far without
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>any big problems coming up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>        I personally have no problems with
> > > > > > > > > > > > anybody doing Ibogaine for
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>spiritual reasons, or as an adjunct to therapy.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I've changed my stance
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>on that over the past 2 years. I just think
> > > > > > > > > > > > that everybody ought to
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>take it very seriously, and do it with somebody
> > > > > > > > > > > > around to help if
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>anything goes wrong. For full dose treatments
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm of the opinion that
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>it should never be done alone or with an
> > > > > > > > > > > > inexperienced person. Just
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>me. Thanx for asking, that's what can change
> > > > > > > > > > > > the mood of the list,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>good questions. Please ask more!!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>         Peace Love and Life
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>            Randy
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>On 5/8/07, Jeff Black < jefblac at gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > I wanted to revive some of Melanie's topics
> > > > > > > > > > > > because they are all of
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>interest
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > to me and it would be a shame if the
> > > > > > > > > > > > discussions were off list. Some
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>of
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>this
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > may have been covered in the past but as the
> > > > > > > > > > > > archives are not
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>currently
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > available those of us who recently joined
> > > > > > > > > > > > don't know.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Here are some things I've been wondering
> > > > > > > > > > > > about:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > The different possible modalities for low
> > > > > > > > > > > > dose and 'full' dose
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>ibogaine
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > usage. For example, are the physical dangers
> > > > > > > > > > > > still inherent in low
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>doses? On
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > the bipolar question, is the general feeling
> > > > > > > > > > > > that ibogaine is
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > contraindicated? I have a bipolar friend who
> > > > > > > > > > > > is also using and badly
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>needs
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > to quit. Is there any scope for spiritual
> > > > > > > > > > > > exploration using low
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>doses,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>or is
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > this a waste of time (and ibogaine)?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > Anyway, I don't personally have a problem
> > > > > > > > > > > > with the off topic nature
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>of
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>the
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > list, but I'm pretty interested in ibogaine
> > > > > > > > > > > > too. I met Dan Lieberman
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>at
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>a
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > talk many years ago, and I also attended
> > > > > > > > > > > > Nick and Hattie's
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>conference
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>in
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > London where Patrick spoke, so I've kept
> > > > > > > > > > > > abreast of the subject but
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>never
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > had any direct involvement with the
> > > > > > > > > > > > substance or treatment etc.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > On 5/5/07, Melanie Gutierrez <gutierrezmelanie at gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > Again, My thread has turned into "shit
> > > > > > > > > > > > shit shit"
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > Back to my existential
> > > > > > > > > > > > crisis.  Patrick,  I would like to speak
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>with
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>you
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > off list if you have time about the uses of
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ibogaine for spiritual
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>reasons.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > I have questions like, I think (guessing)
> > > > > > > > > > > > you do "booster" doses,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>how
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>often.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >  I have been thinking of beginning my
> > > > > > > > > > > > journey during the solstices,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>As
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>I
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>am
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > a person that is greatly influenced by the
> > > > > > > > > > > > stars.  The more I have
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>been
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > paying attention and researching and
> > > > > > > > > > > > learning how the stars and moon
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>affect
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > my "bipolar" disorder, the more I have been
> > > > > > > > > > > > able to understand
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>myself
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>and my
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > cycles.  Thank you for your time.  There is
> > > > > > > > > > > > quite a lot more I would
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>like to
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > talk about, off the list, or even on the
> > > > > > > > > > > > list, I'm pretty much an
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>open
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>book.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
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> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>[%] Ibogaine List Commands:
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> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
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> > > > > > > > > > > > >>\]=---------------------------------------------------------------------=[/
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>_________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>Play your part in making history - Email Britain!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> http://www.emailbritain.co.uk/
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> > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile.
> > > > > > > > > > > > https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/
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> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------
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> > > > > > > > > > > .
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