[Ibogaine] Iboga and ibogaine classified in France

Derek R. derekr42 at gmail.com
Tue Apr 17 14:23:53 EDT 2007


Simon,
Which clinic is this? The only clinic I can find that seems to have
multiple deaths is the Ibogaine Association, which is listed in two
deaths here (one in January 2005 and one in February 2006) :
http://myeboga.com/fatalities.html
I found more information (including an autopsy report listing cause of
death as unrelated health issues) at :
http://www.maps.org/ibogaine/
They seem to be the candidate for the "5 deaths", yet I can't find the
other three. This is where I went, and I have two things to say about
the way they handled things :
1) they were very professional about doing the medical testing (and
their nurse actually found a vein on me, which is nothing short of a
miracle; most American doctors/nurses can't), and made sure that there
was a doctor on hand at all times. Which is a good thing in a lot of
cases, but it wasn't something that I was worried about personally (I'm
in excellent health, despite being a smoker and doing dope; the last
time I went for a physical examination, about a year ago, the doctor
said that " compared against ideal health criteria, not average
Americans, I was in excellent health" - note that that last part I
paraphrased, as I can't remember the _exact_ wording, but that's the
gist of it, since apparently your average American isn't in that good
shape and health condition, no surprise there). Anyways, so I'm not sure
what procedures they had in place before hand, but when I went there
they seemed to be on top of the doctor gig. Though they did accept my
application over the net (but how else are you supposed to get people to
you? You can't be certain that you're getting valid results if you ask
the person to bring their own medical documentation...), they did test
me before I was administered any Ibogaine. Having said that, the tests
took place in the afternoon, so I'm not sure if they had the results or
not when I took the Ibogaine (I don't see what would be the point of
doing the tests if they didn't, but I also wonder how you test someone
at three or four in the afternoon, and have the results that evening,
except for an EKG, since that spits out the graphs right then and there;
I don't know, maybe the EKG is the only important part).
2) unfortunately, prob. due to the deaths, they now administer a low
flood dose and give boosters if necessary, so I did not get the
treatment I needed to cure my physical withdrawal symptoms completely,
and I ended up resuming opiate use (as I've mentioned in other e-mails)
about 9-10 days after when I was treated, as I was still feeling
particularly bad (the only days that I felt pretty decent were the 3rd
through 5th days after my treatment, if you count the day I took
Ibogaine as day 1; it almost seemed like a rebound effect, see my e-mail
to Matt, that'll be out inside the hour, if anyone wants a better
description of my symptoms). If I had known this prior to my going
there, I would have chosen somewhere else (I was an idiot to ignore the
fact that the only recommendation I'd gotten from list members, IIRC,
was to go to Rocky's Awakening in the Dream House).
Note that this isn't shit-talking, just honest opinion and evaluation of
things as I see (and have experienced) them.
Since a lot of people go into Ibo treatment knowing very little, and the
main information available on the net and the list is dosage and
effects, can someone provide a list of exactly what health tests someone
should be certain that a clinic or provider does? This is something I
haven't seen listed anywhere. I know EKG, bloodwork, and a few others
are givens, but can anyone think of anything else? What about what
specific types of blood tests? This would probably be good for people in
countries where it's legal, who might be doing the experience outside of
a clinic.
Anyways, hope this info helps, and I would like to hear what people
think/practice as far as the medical tests.
Regards,
Derek R.

---
derekr42 at gmail.com
---
"You know, some people pay by the pound for good fertilizer, and here you are, giving it away for free!"



simon loxton wrote:
> Hi,
>  
> This place in Mexico that you referred to was where the 5 deaths
> occurred. It shocks me that they assess the patients over the
> internet. You need a medical doctor with addiction training a bonus
> and hopefully a psychiatrist, to establish whether that person is
> suitable for ibogaine treatment. At least they need heart
> and kidney+liver testing before they are personally assessed. That's
> my opinion any way. I don't see how else it can be done without risk.
> Its also up to the patient to be responsible but I have seen how
> people can become so pushy and desperate that they don't really care.
> The thing is that the treatment provider is going to be stuck with the
> responsibility in the end.
>  
> Pax Simon
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: ROCKYM CARAVELLI <rockymcaravelli at yahoo.com>
> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 17 April, 2007 7:51:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Iboga and ibogaine classified in France
>
> I always find it difficult to respond to this list,
>      i've been watching for awhile and went to NY to
> listen to ken about the data available. It deosn't
> make it easy to treat people when the conditions are
> uncontrolled or the people themselves don't want to
> know what there getting into . Seems to come up alot
> that they don't even investigate this treatment. This
> has been common for us . Also the compromised health
> of an addict can cover a large spectrum . The
> screening can be manipulated or dishonest and the
> mental state of an addict isn't always clear ..I liked
> underground because we got to see them in person 1st.
> at least got a idea. Now everything is done online and
> just data till they arrive at the house in mexico. I
> don't know which is better.
>       Desperation is a careless motivator . This is
> the one that gets the problems . Even when we inform
> verbally and have people read info in front of us of
> the nature of this treatment and talk to other people
> whom we treated it still deosn't seem to always sink
> in. Luckly more people are coming from a more informed
> state .
>          I never seen the ibogaine be the problem its
> always some piece of something outside of it, pre
> existing conditions, medications , I'm lucky to not
> have some one use after treatment while with me , this
> one scares me the most .
>        This deosn't even include all the things that
> come up after treatment . I'm so glad we have people
> stay for a week to 3 weeks  and that we have medical
> support and a hospital a few blocks away and 24 hour
> monitoring for the duration at the treatment house .
> It was very difficult doing treatments  all alone in
> different locations under uncontrolled conditions . It
> takes alot out of you. Plus the enmeshment of working
> with some one alone day after day for 4 or 5 days is
> indescribable it rattles the nerves and your always
> waiting for something to happen .
>        I remember trying to kick alone never could do
> it never made it through. I can't imagine trying the
> same thing with ibogaine alone I already know i can't
> kick alone . I had enough sense to know this was out
> of my experience. It seems everyones always tryin to
> find the easy way around the best of conditions to
> help themselves i was famous for this . I finally gave
> in .
>
> The thing i got the most from the conference is
> applying everything we know to prevent any careless
> decisions in the future and to build into our
> treatments as much as is available to protect everyone
> involved and provide the safety and the efficiency we
> know ibogaine is. We don't have to repeat what we've
> learned .
>
> rocky
> www.awakeninginthedream.com <http://www.awakeninginthedream.com/>
>
>
> --- simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Sorry, I forgot to add that what I typed earlier was
> > concerning ibogaine HCL not iboga root bark or iboga
> > extract.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk>
> > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, 17 April, 2007 12:17:09 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Iboga and ibogaine
> > classified in France
> >
> >
> > Hi Phil,
> >  
> > I have taken all these arguments including bwiti
> > initiates and all ibogaine related deaths as far as
> > I can. To specialists in their field who asked not
> > to be named but are in touch with ibogaine and the
> > results are as follows: There makes no difference
> > whether a person is treated in a hotel room or a
> > clinical environment. 5 Deaths have occurred in a
> > clinical environment which is opposite to what most
> > would think. So far the deaths have been attributed
> > to surreptitious drug use and pre existing heart or
> > heart valve conditions, kidney and liver included.
> > The answer to all of this is proper screening
> > procedures and responsible treatment providers. That
> > was another factor; unprofessional or sloppy care,
> > where the person was left un attended. Another thing
> > to watch for is pancreatitis. So far there has been
> > no death that can directly be attributed to ibogaine
> > in a healthy individual that has been properly
> > screened and has not died as a result of an
> > accident.
> >  
> > Thanks Simon
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Phillip Fiuty <phillipfiuty at hotmail.com>
> > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > Sent: Monday, 16 April, 2007 9:25:49 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Iboga and ibogaine
> > classified in France
> >
> >
> > That is all I'm trying to say. I believe the small
> > numbers are just that, small, and I believe the lack
> > of information about them is because of the
> > hiddeness of the movement. I don't think someone
> > OD'ing because the Ibogaine detoxed them can rightly
> > be attributed to the Ibogaine. If the people
> > providing the treatment did not educate them about
> > this ahead of time (not after since a person's
> > judgement may well be impaired), then that's the
> > providers fault, not the Ibogaines.
> > Phillip
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: simon loxton <simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk>
> > Reply-To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Iboga and ibogaine
> > classified in France
> > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:55:02 +0000 (GMT)
> >
> >
> > Hi Howard,
> >  
> > That would be a tragedy. I am not sure I would carry
> > on if that had to happen. What I ultimately believe
> > is that it should be that persons right to choose
> > whether or not to take ibogaine and they should be
> > informed , that's all. As long as all the facts are
> > known and that person can make a choice based on
> > those facts, I am more than willing to help them
> > achieve their goal. At least both of us are prepared
> > for whatever may happen. I can live with that. If
> > some one dies but I was totally honest about the
> > risks they were taking I could live with a clear
> > conscience.
> >  
> > Simon
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: "HSLotsof at aol.com" <HSLotsof at aol.com>
> > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > Sent: Friday, 13 April, 2007 9:12:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Iboga and ibogaine
> > classified in France
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 4/13/07 12:03:08 PM,
> > simonloxton at yahoo.co.uk writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > So basically you are saying that if they kill people
> > its OK for us to kill people? Justification! I
> > honestly dread the day that I treat some one with
> > ibogaine, even with all the tests and precautions,
> > and they die as a result. 1 in 200 1in 1000 that
> > means that if I treat 1000 people at least 1 will
> > die. As an addict I would have gone through their
> > pockets.
> > A patient death is some thing that is constantly on
> > my mind, I don't think there is any way you can
> > justify it.
> >  
> >
> >
> > What if you get the first ten fatalities and the
> > next ten thousand are OK?
> >
> > Howard
> >
> >
> > **************************************
> > See what's free at http://www.aol.com <http://www.aol.com/>.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there
> > knows the answer. Try it now.
> >
> >
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> > from Microsoft Office Live!
> >
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> >         
> >
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