[Ibogaine] correction

HSLotsof at aol.com HSLotsof at aol.com
Fri Oct 20 22:02:05 EDT 2006

Hi Dana,

Thanks for providing some clarity to these matters.


In a message dated 10/19/06 7:56:22 PM, dana at phantom.com writes:

> Not to be tendencious, but the following posts were so far off the mark that 
> to leave them out there unresponded-to would not only leave the wrong 
> implression, but would chance an outcome where permanent misinformation of the List 
> might result.
> In reply to Patrick Kroupa, Dave Brockman wrote:
> Dog, much respect and understood. I haven't continued the thread and
> will just drop it. All of this began by asking a real simple question,
> which was why did Dana go so far out of his way to totally alienate
> Rob Kampia. Rob showed up for the ibo forum, he was into it. He left
> because Ken Alper is boring and it's not that likely that MPP is ever
> going to fund ibogaine anything and Rob does control Lewis' money,
> which is upsetting to a lot of peeps, including the DPA and every
> other cannabis activist org. But you know Rob went out and got the
> money in the first place, it's not like Lewis was a real big donator
> of funds to any counter culture causes even back like 5 years ago,
> it's all very recent. It's real hard to attack Rob for going out and
> getting himself his own funding, that's brand new even.
> So far as I know yr time line is off. When Kampia snagged Lewis from 
> Nadelman, it was a seismic event which sent shockwaves through the legalization 
> movement. It not only cut off Nadelman's major source of funding (after Richard 
> Dennis lost a lot of money on the futures market), it cut off NORML, which 
> Nadelman had just co-opted to bolster his pre-eminence as THE guy the NYTIMES 
> likes to quote. Nadelman did this by engineering a coup ousting  the old board 
> containing  Al Byrnes and Marylynn Mathre (now Patients out of Time) as too 
> counter-cultural, and bringing back Keith Stroup from disgrace (Stroup having 
> torpedoed Jimmy Carter's Drug Czar, Dr. Peter Bourne, by revealing to an 
> assistant of Jack Anderson that they'd done coke together).
> The person who persuaded Peter Lewis to switch horses was his nephew, Don 
> Wirtschafter, who was pissed because Keith threw him off the NORML board.
> I know Dana is Dana, I know he's your friend and you've known him
> since you were 12 or 13 or whatever, I can read, it's all online. All
> of this was escaleted by Dana who responded to the question, which btw
> included you biscuitboy, agreeing with me when I first asked it.
> I never said I was representing SSDP, that's something that's come
> back to me that Dana is asking peeps, that's all Dana, not me, never
> said that or even said anything implying it.
> No I'm not 'top hat' ;-) that was Nicky! I was the one sitting one
> over from Top Hat ;-)
> It's cool patrick, even if Dana posts another 30 paragraph rant in
> reply to this, I won't bother picking it up. Maybe someone else will,
> but like I have said at least 10 times, I really do have respect for
> the bro, I know Dana does a lot of good, I know who he is, everybody
> does, what I asked was why does he waste so much of his effort,
> undoing what he's done by throwing fits and spazzing out, dissing
> peeps, for no reason. Don't see the up side to any of that, but it's
> his prob, nobody else's.
> -broc
> Dave, if you truly don't want to dialog, that is unfortunate. Look, I wasn't 
> getting through to Kampia on the phone, and against my better judgement, on 
> the recommendation of Vallerie VandePanne, I tried email. What I was trying 
> to get, if I was going to turn over the raw tape of the entire conference--for 
> free--was some assurances of better treatment in the future.  Because there 
> are real issues about how Rob treats other cannabis-related networks, like 
> the Global March, and how MPP is interacting with Cures not Wars on both the 
> ibo and medical marijusna issues.
> All I was trying to do was get the guy to TALK. (Alan St. Pierre, the new 
> head of NORML, returns my phone calls, even if it takes a week. I think that's 
> perfectly acceptable. )
> You have characterized that email as hate speech, but look at it, paragraph 
> by paragraph--
> From: rkampia at mpp.org
> Subject: Re: video of ibogaine forum
> Dana,
> Your e-mail message is rude -- and for no good reason.  Please do not write 
> or call me.
> Sincerely,
> Rob Kampia, Executive Director
> Marijuana Policy Project
> P.O. Box 77492, Washington, D.C. 20013
> 202-462-5747 ext. 271 (phone), 202-232-0442 (fax)
> RKampia at mpp.org, http://www.mpp.org
> Please visit http://www.mpp.org/subscribe to sign up for MPP's free e-mail 
> alerts.
> On Apr 25, 2006, at 8:34 PM, Dana Beal wrote:
> >
> > I am disinclined to give you the raw footage without proper editing. 
> Frankly, I'm a little confused by yr sudden interest in ibogaine. >We have never 
> discussed it, and you guys have a history of setting up phony organizations to 
> take all the credit and resources away >from grass roots activists who have 
> labored long and hard in the trenches just when they are on the verge of 
> success.
> This part is true, and repeats criticisms that that are well-known, and 
> originate with former NORML head Dick Cohen. It explains the grounds for 
> reluctance do anything without talking first. All we're looking for is some 
> assurances. Ibogaine IS on the verge of success, BTW.
> > You must admit the inside-the-beltway drug policy wonks have been pretty 
> hostile to our movement -- see Phil Smith's coverage >of this year's Million 
> Marijuana March in this week's DRCnet.
> And here's the opening for Rob to write back saying that if others are 
> hostile, he's not.
> > We prefer to maintain the MMM and Cures not Wars as a platform independent 
> of this kind of bullshit so that we can propagate our >message of a public 
> health oriented, harm reduction approach to non-injection drug use, including 
> ibogaine.
> This boilerplate is essentially an indirect plea for a political alliance, 
> since if we're independent, that means we're not aligned with the folks who 
> want Rob's scalp. 
> > A couple of days ago, when I tried to call you on the phone you had some 
> flack call me back and ask if they could help me, >because you were too busy 
> to talk to me about ibogaine and its potential role in the movement. I told 
> them that I was perfectly >willing to wait until you could take my call.
> This gets down to the nub of what I want to discuss--the ways in which 
> ibogaine helps the cause of cannabis, which the Stroups and Nadelmans have simply 
> failed to see.
> > Email is not a good way to communicate, and I realize this message may 
> come off as brusque. A phone conversation would be >much more sensitive, I'm 
> sure.
> So here"s the first apology.
> > (BTW, I do believe now that it was NYU, and not you, who set up the forum 
> obstensibly about Giuliani's quality of life crackdown on >marijuana which 
> turned out to be about HEA Reform and Tulia Texas--a classic case of bait & 
> switch, if there ever was one. I >wouldn't even have tuirned up there with the 
> crowd I brought (yr only audience) if some one hadn't covered my door with 
> flyers for >it. It was a little insensitive of you to show up at all for a venue 
> that had banned the local movement outright, but I am convinced >you were 
> being used by NYU in their attempts isolate us. You will be happy to know that 
> finally, after 10 years, we are being given >Washington Square Park for one 
> hour before our march to commemorate Stew Albert, the Yippie founder who 
> recently died due to >the complications of hepatitis he caught from a dirty 
> needle. We recently have noticed that hep C patients actually do better on >
> ibogaine than interferon. Ibogaine could have helped prolong Stew's life--which is a 
> drag, since he was one the board of our Yippie >Museum. Too bad the 
> legalization movement suppressed the very existence of ibogaine all these years 
> because Ethan et al thought >it was a threat to their pet heroin trials.)
> >
> > Dana/cnw
> >
> And here's the second apology, along with some criticism of Nadelman Rob 
> might sympathize with (since Ethan is leading the charge to cut him off from 
> Lewis) along with one of the parallels of ibo and cannabis (they're both good 
> for hep C) that I'd point out if Rob was willing to be briefed further.
> Suffice it to say he didn't go for it. Probably because he WAS uptight about 
> that night at NYU. At least I got a response I could show to people who want 
> to know what the problem is-- that Kampia won't talk, period. He wasn't 
> talking before, and he isn't talking afterwards. So nothing changed. Pity. Count 
> the lines. 3 lines of criticism. 4 lines appealing for sympathy. 3 lines of 
> specific complaint asking to just TALK about ibogaine and how it furthers the 
> cause of cannabis. 12 lines apologizing for bothering him at all. That's 6 
> lines of criticism and complaint vs. 16 lines of apology and sympathy. 
> Doesn't sound like hate speech to me. 
> Eric Priest wrote: 
> Patrick  - yawn - defending his crazed old friend. For the how manyth time? 
> That is what a decent friend should do. It’s rather cute. And money is good.
> Dana, acting anything other than diplomatic or coherent. SHOCKING! No one 
> has ever heard of such a thing. And – snore - Howard and Deb fighting… 
> Say it ain’t so.
> The possibilities are endless, all the way from either to or with Dana. 
> Conspiracies are much too much fun to ignore.
> Either: Dana is a shill for the man. He’s down with the cops or has some 
> MK-Ultra gig going and is merely a tool for keeping ibo lost in the netherworld. 
> With a friend like him, who needs government suppression? This would explain 
> his never becoming a baanzi. Good narcs don’t taste.
> Sorry. You weren't paying attention. I recently took some Indra for a 
> fungoid lung infection, and referred to it on-list.  6 hrs of motion sickness and 
> puking. The next morning, however, no shortness of breath. (Afterwards I read 
> how iboga blocks the enzymes candidiasis uses to break down cell walls.)
> The charge here is that I'm such a controversial figure that folks from the 
> DPA et al boycott any forums I organize and that having me in any prominent 
> role blocks other sponsors from becoming involved.  
> I say this is a typical case of shooting the messager who brings bad news-- 
> except that in this case the news isn't even all bad. 
> I say Ibogaine has a problem in the the leglization movement (DPA, DRCnet, 
> LEAP) and with the hierarchies of established national organiztions  (NORML, 
> MPP, ASA) but not grassroots, local groups in the Pot Movement. Ibogaine is 
> gaining increasing respect in the psychedelic community (MAPS, Mindstates, the 
> Ayahuasca Churchs) as folks come to see that in fact ibo does something their 
> stuff just doesn' do.  And Ibogaine has broken through with the Harm 
> Reduction Coalition (HRC, Meth Summit) and is making great strides, with major 
> panels being planned in both Oakland and Salt Lake City. All because of personal 
> interaction between Allan Clear and Dimitri Mougainis I might add.
> Narcs don't usually go to the trouble of organizing panels at conferences. 
> Conferences, I might note, that are not solely sponsored by CNW or affiliate 
> groups, yet have me as one of the presenters.
> Or: Dana is touched. Years of being the lessor known sidekick of Abbie 
> Hoffman and the lack of recognition for the very... uhm, significant work of late 
> model yippies has taken it’s toll. The smell of cat urine has gone to his 
> brain. His last grasp for fame lay in a root of which he refuses to partake, 
> causing torn and frayed behavior. A wounded animal, snarling and licking his 
> wounds; dangerous. The seams are coming apart. The last gagging breath of the 
> yippies is having trouble breathing. A lack of oxygen is causing the pesky 
> voices in his head to get a little louder. Never pretty, but comedy isn’t. Who 
> wouldn’t act a little out of sorts under such conditions? Of course we need to 
> show compassion. Thank you Patrick.
> I wish Abbie was around , Stewie too. Both of them were better than the 
> straight lefties who've since appointed themselves protectors of Abbie's legacy 
> with the chief aim of trying to take the drugs out of "sex, drugs and rock 'n 
> roll." That is, trying to remake Abbie as a straight leftist who never 
> opposed the drug war or supported legalization (or got busted for coke) but only 
> worked for civil rights and opposed Vietnam and the contra war. Trying to 
> pretend that the 3rd plank of Abbie's platform in '68 wasn't both legalization of 
> pot and psychedelics and decrim of narcotics-- I guess nobody actually reads 
> STEAL THIS BOOK any more. 
> I remember Abbie telling Clark Kissinger and a meeting of Refuse and Resist 
> that if they were sincere in opposing the drug war,  they had to start with 
> the legalization of pot, so I don't thing his position ever changed. And since 
> he also started TAP and  went around selling  blueboxes, it's only natural 
> that Patrick and I should be connected under the big Yippie umbrella. 
> Thing is, Abbie was told about Ibogaine-- he could read about it in 
> OVERTHROW-- but I am certain that I tried to convince him of the centrality of 
> ibogaine to what was going to happen next.  But he couldn't get his head around it. 
> He was DEPRESSED, and the lithium didn't really help and the cocaine made it 
> worse. One of the last things he did was to offer to help ACT UP. After his 
> death a letter to that effect was read at the big Monday night ACT UP 
> meeting. 
> It's really too bad that he didn't stay alive to carry on the fight.  In 
> fact, the "very significant work of late model yippie" largely consists  of the 
> ibogaine project, vanguard of the World Wide Marijuana March (now in 139 
> cities for May 5, 2007). Abbie knew Howard and Sisko, he would have been welcomed 
> with open arms as an ibo rep, and who knows-- he might have been more 
> successful at pushing it through to approval than I was alone during that window 
> from '88 to '95 when we had our first chance. 
> But he didn't. How can I be jealous of some one who killed himself in 
> despair? I'm alive. I've survived almost 10 years longer than Abbie and I'm about 
> to open the Yippie Museum/ webcafe. The ground floor no longer smells of male 
> cat, though I suppose the faint traces still serve to keep out the 
> neighborhood's rat population.
> I've had cats and I've had rats. Cats are better.
> Which is it? Perhaps we shall never know. Oh the pity of it all.
> Very amused,
> Eric.
> In fact if you ever have a rat infestation, it'll wipe any resistance you 
> may have to using  the little buggers for animal experimentation.
> Stanley Glick rules!
> But I knew you wouldn't believe anything I said anyway, so I forwarded the 
> whole thread to Don Wirtschafter. 
> I have good relations with Donnie, as I have with roughly 97% of the 
> marijuana movement. You don't get to the point where coalitions in 140 cities are 
> already backing your May 5, '07 worldwide march in the middle of October 
> without a whole lot of good relations with a whole lot of people. That list of 
> organizations we're not on-- with one or two exceptions they're all either part 
> of the march (i.e: listed on back of the poster), or will end up speaking at 
> one or more of the rallies.
> But I've been in a dialog with Donnie about trying to improve the tone of 
> things with Stroup and Kampia, both of whom are down on the march (Stroup says 
> NORML won't back it because most events consist of 12 people and "Dana Beal 
> is far from the mainstream in his views." Trans: I may get 50,000 in Rome and 
> 25,000 in Toronto, but I don't really think it's a good idea to associate the 
> marijuana movement with heroin legalization as NORML does by cozying up to 
> Ethan. I'd rather associate it with "medical ibogaine" because iibo is the 
> closest analog to medical marijuana. Love the way these guys self-reference 
> themselves as mainstream!
> So Donny read the stuff you guys said about me, and he fired back the 
> following:
> From:   don at hempery.com
> Subject:   Controversy on the Ibogaine List
> Dana,
> Thank you for forwarding to me some of the correspondence off of the 
> Ibogaine list.  I understand your concerns with being blamed for events that are out 
> of your control.
> As you know, I have a unique, inside view of the situation.  I watch these 
> events closely and know all the parties involved including MPP’s primary 
> funder.
> MPP is centered on marijuana reform.  They do not like to get outside of 
> this area at all.  MPP rightfully does not feel addiction and the Ibogaine cure 
> have little to do with their area of interest.  Yes, MPP funds groups like 
> LEAP or DRCNet, groups with a larger agenda than marijuana law reform.  But 
> these groups have a strong connection to marijuana law reform.  I know from a 
> conversation that I had with Rob Kampia that he has trouble seeing the 
> connection between your work and what MPP does. 
> I was also on the NORML Board of Directors for several years, only dropping 
> off when my questions about a needed financial accounting were not answered. 
> Both NORML and MPP seem to be bent on strengthening their own positions.  
> Notice the letter on ARO from Steph Sherer of ASA this morning.  MPP has 
> threatened to cut off funding any groups who obtain an ASA grant.  The only 
> explanation for such behavior is a run-away ego.  Funding from these organizations 
> go to projects that build a name for the organization.  You have not allowed 
> the Ibogaine message to be diverted as such.
> Dana, you have been a full-time advocate for Ibogaine almost as long as I 
> have known you, so this dates your advocacy to at least 15 years running.  You 
> have been the public voice for Ibogaine treatment from the beginning as I 
> believe Howard realized your talents and perseverance and put you in this 
> position.  Being the focal point is not easy and an almost guarantee of being 
> trashed by friends and foes alike.  In my view, you have done nothing wrong that 
> should lead anyone to criticize your motives, image or performance.  Indeed, 
> with little funding, the Ibogaine debate has come a long way in this time.
> We all have a lot to thank you for.
> Don
> The runaway ego, of course, is Rob Kampia. And it's pretty clear the 
> perception here is that I'm taking shit because I keep insisting that Ibogaine is 
> NOT marginal, and that I even get a certain grudging respect for sticking to my 
> guns.
> And here's the letter that Steph Sherer sent to the Association of Reform 
> Organization (ARO) List complaining about Rob heavyhanded tactics--
> From: owner-aro at drugsense.org [mailto:owner-aro at drugsense.org] On Behalf Of
> Steph Sherer
> To: aro at drugsense.org
> Subject: MPP Grant Ultimatum
> Dear Drug Policy Reform Movement,
> It's been called to my attention that in the past day, two medical marijuana
> organizations with pending grants applications with ASA and MPP were given
> an ultimatum: If applicants take ASA grant money, then they will be denied
> MPP grant money.
> In one case, an organization that had already been granted ASA funds was
> told to refuse the ASA grant or they would receive NO grant money from MPP.
> And, in the other case, a pending applicant with ASA was told by MPP that
> they had 24-hours to give a verbal promise that they would not take funds
> from ASA, and subsequently asked to sign a formal statement to the same
> effect.
> ASA was shocked and disappointed to learn from these advocates that they
> were being asked to make this choice.
> In both of these cases, MPP was not offering to fulfill the entire budgets
> for these organizations. That is precisely why ASA's grants programs exists.
> ASA's grants program was created specifically to fill the funding gaps for
> grassroots organizing and implementation of state medical marijuana laws.
> Our grants program is considerably smaller than MPPs - we average $150,000
> in funding distributed to grassroots medical cannabis advocacy organizations
> each year.   (For more information about ASA's grant program HYPERLINK
> "http://www.safeaccessnow.org/article.php?list=type&type=216"http://www.safe
> accessnow.org/article.php?list=type&type=216 )
> Given scarce funding resources for grassroots medical cannabis advocacy, I
> am deeply concerned about this situation. I think it is important to inform
> the community about what is happening.  Also, I would like to know if this
> is happening to others. If you, or someone you know, is experiencing a
> similar situation, please let me know ASAP.
> In light of continued DEA raids and challenges we face to change federal
> law, I hope these are isolated situations we can swiftly resolve.
> Sincerely,
> Steph Sherer
> Executive Director
> Americans for Safe Access
> All of which raises the interesting possibility Kampia is down on me not 
> because of something I did or said, or even because he doesn't want to have to 
> hear me out as to why I think he's wrong about ibogaine and cannabis, but 
> simply because I head a marijuana network that is bigger than his organization, 
> powered more by volunteerism than money--and he's been unable to shut us down 
> by buying away our people because there just are too many of us!
> So it's unfortunate that we can't just talk, since minds are sometimes 
> changed through the interactions of two people (Allan Clear and Dimitri, for 
> instance). 
> If I could talk to Rob Kampia, I would say ibogaine and marijuana are 
> related in the following ways--
> 1) Both are governed by the same guys at FDA and NIDA, who look at ibogaine 
> thru the lense of medical marijuana, as in, how will the precedent of 
> de-scheduling ibo affect medical marijuana?
> 2) Both are glutamate antagonistic, serotonin-enhancing hallucinogens; they 
> use the same pathways, so that ibogaine's anti-addictiveness casts doubt on 
> the addictiveness of cannabis. (The psychedelic link drives Stroup crazy-- he 
> wants to associate it with alcohol, which is an addictive, opioid agonist. 
> Maybe that's why he'd rather be associated with heroin trials than ibogain 
> access.)
> 3) Because of common mechanism, ibogaine and cannabis turn out to be 
> effective in the treatment of the same diseases (e.g: Hep C, HIV, addicition, 
> bi-polar), and will in the future be used as adjunct therapies in the treatment of 
> these diseases.
> 4) After ibogaine treatment, use of alcohol, but not marijuana, tends to 
> provoke relapse. One night you get really drunk and suddenly it seems like a 
> real great idea to do a bag of smack. . Marijuana doesn't do that. So success 
> with ibogaine often consists of switching your pattern of drug consumption from 
> alcohol and tobacco to pot, LSD and 'shrooms. Turning the methadone 
> dependent into medical marijuana clients.
> 5) Ibogaine nullifies the "gateway effect" argument. Not only is it a 
> "gateway back" from hard drugs, remember the real drug warriors also consider 
> psychedelics to be part of the slippery slope to coke and dope, so an 
> anti-addictive psychedelic is anathema!
> So if it's unfortunate that we can't talk, at least I can circulate these 
> ideas, and ibogaine may become a little more mainstream. What I would say to 
> you guys is that if you want to put on your own ibogaine forum, if you think 
> I'm such a drawback, go ahead  and do it! 
> It doesn't even cost that much. And best of all, Tyler tells me that the 3 
> freshmen he has who want to work on it are all coeds! Both of you guys are 
> probably younger than me, so you might have a chance with them.
> Dana/cnw
> PS: I think it's bad form to be hassling ASA what with Ed Rosenthal facing 
> that new indictment. ASA is a Rosenthal front. Patrick, do they get money from 
> John Gilmore? I know Gilmore is backing Ed's defense, or at least did so 
> last time.
> =

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