[Ibogaine] correction

Vector Vector vector620022002 at yahoo.com
Fri Oct 6 13:56:05 EDT 2006


As far as I know there already is a private provider's list here too,
or used to be, not real sure that's always the rumor but I don't think
it makes any difference since all the usual suspects know each other
and communicate in private anyway. There isn't anything on this list
that causes some explosion, that isn't passed around in private weeks
or months before it becomes public knowledge. The real purpose of all
this is never communication, it's to make sure the 7000+ people reading
this, especially the reporters and media people see all of it and their
disputes and dirty laundry make it into the next ibogaine media piece.
Which it always does, because the dirty laundry is always much more
interesting then an addict getting help. Not exactly sure this is a bad
thing, because if you got rid of the whole cult of personality aspect
of ibogaine, what's left as far as the rest of the world is concerned
is total silence. As much as the egotrips and wars have hurt ibogaine,
they're also just about the only thing that's kept it going for this
long. Remove all of that and you're left with a non patentable
psychedelic that benefits only people the establishment really doesn't
care about anyway (drug addicts).

The psychedelic soap opera and all the larger then life loonies and
their tangled up and complicated ego wars, makes for a great story. See
also: Tim Leary, John Lilly, or ask anyone who is 20ish what the 60's
were. Leary they'll know, Lilly they might know if they're into
psychedelics, what any of the rest of it was about or who did what,
nobody remembers. I know that lots of you here were alive and doing
your thing in the 60's, but to the rest of the world, that was half a
century and 4 or 5 generations ago.
 
.:vector:.

--- Mason Shipley <maseshipley at gmail.com> wrote:

> Having spent much of my time in "the rooms" which are 12 step
> meetings
> for those here who have never had the investigation prior to the
> contempt part happen for them, I hate to ruin anyone's terminal
> uniqueness, but the personality squabbles that shouldn't happen, yet
> always do and infighting are absolutely the same as what you find in
> any large organisation dealing with "recovery" in its many forms. No
> difference at all really except the power structure is a little
> different here, not necessarily in a bad way, in the rooms no matter
> what you have to say, no matter how true, insightful or correct,
> would
> be ignored out of hand if you weren't "clean" because nothing you say
> is worth listening to if you have no clean time, it's meaningless
> fluff coming from a person who can't even help themselves or accept
> the help being offered, so it will be met with being patronized or
> outright contempt, whereas here it's merely ignored, or taken up by
> half a dozen people who were never even on drugs in the first place
> and like to listen to themselves talk endlessly. Which is another
> difference, anywhere else when you're dealing with addiction, not one
> word you have to say would be heard by anyone, if you've never been
> an
> addict, especially if you happen to be a doctor who treats addicts
> (prepare to find a new career or get tar and feathered).
> 
> It would be nice if addicts didn't behave like addicts, but for some
> reason I don't see that ever happening, no matter the level of hands
> on policing, monitoring, rules and whatnot. One of the largest
> addiction oriented forums I used to read a long time ago which was a
> moderated list primarily designed for doctors and scientists in the
> addiction field, generated so much ranting and hate mail, this from
> the "treatment professionals" talking to one another, that it made
> itself useless in a short span of time. For what its worth I'm
> talking
> about the addiction-l list which many here may have been part of at
> one time or another, I won't even start on the large methadone
> forums.
> 
> Considering how emotionally loaded many of the topics are, the
> majority of the participants being addicts and the new twist of a
> schedule I psychedelic substance with endless lawsuits and ego wars
> being at the center of all this, the most remarkable thing is that
> all
> of it works at all, much less as well as it seems to.
> 
> -Mase
> 
> On 10/6/06, Brad Hays <bradleyheathhays at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I just wrote for thirty plus minutes then killed it all.  Feeling a
> bit
> > compelled here I guess.  I'll summarize...
> >
> > Priest! Great fucking writing there bro!  And I'm saying THE finest
> example
> > of a cut down I've EVER read!  You gotta cut n paste that whole
> thing man
> > cause that shit's worth saving.  One of the finest examples of the
> written
> > English language I've seen in months!
> >
> > then, Welch...
> >
> > Now you have a gift for writing my friend.  And we are feeling, I
> believe,
> > the same...about many things.
> >
> > I'll say my peace here short and sweet.  And this is specifically
> directed
> > toward nobody.  If the bickering (however justified) that goes on
> on this
> > board somehow helped to further ibogaine, then great!  Have at it! 
> But it
> > doesn't. And I think we all already understand how, overall, it
> hurts
> > ibogaine in a very real way.  This movement will live or die by the
> > numbers...and I'll say it again...as the first real time
> information source
> > most people are able to get on this drug, this list has the
> > responsibility of both maintaining the best possible face it can
> > and communicating in much less adversarial ways.  Politeness is
> cool
> > yall...ever read 'The Art of War' by Sun Tsu?  I understand the
> list is what
> > it is...which is SO much better than nothing...but it can be a lot
> more.
> > How much has the Mash-Lotsof dispute detracted from ibogaine's
> overall
> > progress?... well...about as much as all these disputes have
> detracted from
> > our overall progress at attracting new people. The word 'years'
> comes to
> > mind.
> >
> > YES!  ALL you're arguements are valid!  But if this is the place
> you must
> > air them (and I do understand, this basically IS the only place)
> use
> > language and sentiment your mother wouldn't be embarrassed to hear
> come from
> > ya.
> >
> > I just wish this list was as a bulletin board so we could make
> 'arguements'
> > it's own section that I might never visit.
> >
> > Besides...arguing just isn't healthy for ya.
> >
> > truly godspeed
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/6/06, steven m welch <smwelch at optonline.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi--  I've been a non-participating, never-introduced,
> semi-attentive
> > lurker on this list for quite a while because of my interest in
> Iboga,
> > getting info supporting an ultimate goal of traveling to Gabon and
> > participating in a Bitwi initiation experience.   I changed my
> plans
> > recently, to the simpler idea of going for treatment in Vancouver,
> which I
> > hadn't considered previously thinking it a half-measure that would
> spoil the
> > authentic, because of what is being triggered in me by the
> absolutely
> > extraordinary events underway in the world politically, militarily,
> and
> > spiritually. The time is at hand, I need to clean up from a
> ridiculous
> > re-addiction to a stimulant substance, get the paradigm unstuck and
> move on
> > to play my part.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I only give this thread half a mind—the discussion is mostly
> off-topic,
> > which is certainly forgivable given the group's patina of
> long-established
> > positions, and if I wasn't getting glimpses of what Iboga offers, I
> would
> > leave. Well, bye.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This particular message is just so ugly, it leaves me feeling so
> > horrified. The terrible attitude, the projection of harm, the
> obvious
> > self-hatred, gives me despair just by proximity to the screen. Is
> this what
> > Iboga offered you? Is this what you integrated? Have you any sense
> of what
> > you're putting out there? Wake up, again then.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: eric priest [mailto: ericprst at yahoo.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 11:18 PM
> > > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > > Subject: Re: Re: [Ibogaine] correction
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Patrick  - yawn - defending his crazed old friend. For the how
> manyth
> > time? That is what a decent friend should do. It's rather cute. And
> money is
> > good.
> > >
> > > Dana, acting anything other than diplomatic or coherent.
> SHOCKING! No one
> > has ever heard of such a thing. And – snore - Howard and Deb
> fighting

> > >
> > > Say it ain't so.
> > >
> > > The possibilities are endless, all the way from either to or with
> Dana.
> > Conspiracies are much too much fun to ignore.
> > >
> > > Either: Dana is a shill for the man. He's down with the cops or
> has some
> > MK-Ultra gig going and is merely a tool for keeping ibo lost in the
> > netherworld. With a friend like him, who needs government
> suppression? This
> > would explain his never becoming a baanzi. Good narcs don't taste.
> > >
> > > Or: Dana is touched. Years of being the lessor known sidekick of
> Abbie
> > Hoffman and the lack of recognition for the very... uhm,
> significant work of
> > late model yippies has taken it's toll. The smell of cat urine has
> gone to
> > his brain. His last grasp for fame lay in a root of which he
> refuses to
> > partake, causing torn and frayed behavior. A wounded animal,
> snarling and
> > licking his wounds; dangerous. The seams are coming apart. The last
> gagging
> > breath of the yippies is having trouble breathing. A lack of oxygen
> is
> > causing the pesky voices in his head to get a little louder. Never
> pretty,
> > but comedy isn't. Who wouldn't act a little out of sorts under such
> > conditions? Of course we need to show compassion. Thank you
> Patrick.
> > >
> > > Which is it? Perhaps we shall never know. Oh the pity of it all.
> > >
> > > Very amused,
> > > Eric.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dave Brockman < davebroc at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Dog, much respect and understood. I haven't continued the thread
> and
> > > will just drop it. All of this began by asking a real simple
> question,
> > > which was why did Dana go so far out of his way to totally
> alienate
> > > Rob Kampia. Rob showed up for the ibo forum, he was into it. He
> left
> > > because Ken Alper is boring and it's not that likely that MPP is
> ever
> > > going to fund ibogaine anything and Rob does control Lewis'
> money,
> > > which is upsetting to a lot of peeps, including the DPA and every
> > > other cannabis activist org. But you know Rob went out and got
> the
> > > money in the first place, it's not like Lewis was a real big
> donator
> > > of funds to any counter culture causes even back like 5 years
> ago,
> > > it's all very recent. It's real hard to attack Rob for going out
> and
> > > getting himself his own funding, that's brand new even.
> > >
> > > I know Dana is Dana, I know he's your friend and you've known him
> > > since you were 12 or 13 or whatever, I can read, it's all online.
> All
> > > of this was escaleted by Dana who responded to the question,
> which btw
> > > included you biscuitboy, agreeing with me when I first asked it.
> > >
> > > I never said I was representing SSDP, that's something that's
> come
> > > back to me that Dana is asking peeps, that's all Dana, not me,
> never
> > > said that or even said anything implying it.
> > >
> > > No I'm not 'top hat' ;-) that was Nicky! I was the one sitting
> one
> > > over from Top Hat ;-)
> > >
> > > It's cool patrick, even if Dana posts another 30 paragraph rant
> in
> > > reply to this, I won't bother picking it up. Maybe someone else
> will,
> > > but like I have said at least 10 times, I really do have respect
> for
> > > the bro, I know Dana does a lot of good, I know who he is,
> everybody
> > > does, what I asked was why does he waste so much of his effort,
> > > undoing what he's done by throwing fits and spazzing out, dissing
> > > peeps, for no reason. Don't see the up side to any of that, but
> it's
> > > his prob, nobody else's.
> > >
> > > -broc
> > >
> > > On 10/3/06, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Kids, KidZ, ChildrenS ... I step out of the room for 5 minutes
> and
> > > > alla youz are beating each other over the heyd with
> sledgehammers.
> > > >
> > > > All I'm gonna do, is step back a few paces and take a look at
> the
> > > > Bigger Picture. Have Dana's recent actions been particularly
> helpful
> > > > in furthering the cause of ibogaine...? Well, prolly not. Would
> it be
> > > > a good idea to occasionally roll the dice, and try to get a
> sanity
> > > > check...? You bet! Is anything that is being said here going to
> > > > change anything? Fuck no.
> > > >
> > > > Dana is less than perfect, oh well. So's everybody, including
> > > > YOU ... although, I realize you may not be aware of this. At 23
> I
> > > > WAS perfect and knew all the answers to the Whole Entire
> Everything.
> > > > It wasn't until I hit 30 that I realized I was a complete
> idiot.
> > > > Enjoy your state of grace while it lasts.
> > > >
> > > > When all is said and done ... Rob Kampia is grumpy, oh well.
> > > > Shit happens. No it wasn't exactly the ideal letter to send
> > > > out. Yes it WAS rude to Rob, as were the comments that followed
> and
> > > > were sent out to this list. Probably it will not directly pave
> the
> > > > wave for a glorious integration of ibogaine into the middle of
> all
> > > > these different groups' agendas. But then, it's not like that
> was
> > > > gonna be happening Any Minute Now, anywaze. Bummer n' all, but
> it's
> > > > really not the End of The World as We Know It.
> > > >
> > > > Dana HAS done a tremendous amount of good for a variety of
> causes.
> > > > If ibogaine happens to be sumthin' you care about, behind all
> the
> > > > bullshit, Dana has personally, spent hundreds of thousands of
> dollars
> > > > over the years, backing up his intentions, with action. He
> > > > believes. He does his best. Often, he is very effective at
> causing
> > > > positive change ... at other times he just becomes frustrated
> and
> > > > vents. He's human.
> > > >
> > > > By the way, Dave ... who the fuck are YOU? Were you the do0d in
> the
> > > > top hat? I asked this before, I don't think you ever replied,
> sorry
> > > > if you have and I missed it. Are you with SSDP...? 'Cuz nobody
> at
> > > > SSDP seems to be aware of you, at least not under the name
> "Dave Brock
> > > > (man)" or Broc.
> > > >
> > > > Patrick
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 22, 2006, at 2:32 PM, Dave Brockman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 9/22/06, Dana Beal wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Do I detect a whiff of sarcasm in this post?
> > > > >
> > > > > Only in your head.
> > > > >
> > > > >> Apparently you are not, as some suspect, a friend of Rob
> Kampia.
> > > > >
> > > > > Say what? I never said I was a friend of Rob Kampia, exactly
> what I've
> > > > > said is that you acted like a dick to him for no reason
> except your
> > > > > special contribution looks like it is alienating peeps who
> are already
> > > > > on the same side and fracturing groups even further with no
> gain at
> > > > > all. MPP and NORML argue with each other, depending on what
> side you
> > > > > want to believe, Kampia was either fired or he quit, so he
> went and
> > > > > got millions from Lewis and did his own thing. You just dis
> everybody.
> > > > >
> > > > >> You just
> > > > >> don't like anything to be posted to this list that's overly
> > > > >> critical of
> > > > >> anyone associated with ibogaine or drug legalization.
> > > > >
> > > > > Say what? The only person I've ever critisized on this list
> is YOU.
> > > > > Just you, not the ibogaine movement, you Dana. YOU. Not how
> you dress,
> > > > > not how you live, not what you believe, but how you
> personally,
> > > > > alienate other people, personally, all in the name of
> ibogaine.
> > > > > "They're against ibogaine" no, they're not, they never were,
> in fact
> > > > > Kampia didn't even dis you back, exactly what he said was
> "You're very
> > > > > rude and disrespectul, don't ever contact me again" Do you
> get it yet?
> > > > > Inside your head everything is all about YOU, I'm critizising
> how YOU
> > > > > alienate people who are already on the same side, for no
> reason. But
> > > > > you can't handle that, inside your head I am critisizing the
> entire
> > > > > ibogaine movement, because inside your head YOU are the
> entire
> > > > > ibogaine movement.
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Fortuitously, an article came in this morning that was not
> written
> > > > >> by me
> > > > >> (note Cures not Wars is not even listed, so it couldn't be
> by me)
> > > > >> that
> > > > >> explains some of the differences between NORML and MPP. I
> hope
> > > > >> that you can
> > > > >> see that my criticisms are widely shared, and not a just a
> matter
> > > > >> of me
> > > > >> going around trashing people as you implied in your last
> post. As the
> > > > >> dispute between Lotsof and Mash shows, there are real
> politiical
> > > > >> differences
> > > > >> that stand in the way of progress with ibogaine--differences
> that
> > > > >> deserve to
> > > > >> be aired and shared with the ibogaine list. Anyone who wants
> to
> > > > >> read it can
> > > > >> scroll down past Boaz's post....
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Dana, I've read it and you just made my point again.
> Read your
> > > > > own list of Marijuana Reform. You just posted this. Notice
> anything
> > > > > about it? Cures Not Wars isn't there. The MMM was started by
> you
> > > > > wasn't it? The MMM continues to be a huge force for positive
> change,
> > > > > yet even within the fractured medical marijuana movement, in
> this big
> > > > > letter you enclosed and I guess agree with, YOU don't exist.
> Your own
> > > > > movement doesn't recognize YOU. Do you see CNW anywhere here?
> I don't.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why is that Dana, I mean YOU are the ibogaine movement, YOU
> personally
> > > > > started medical marijuana right. So where are YOU?
> > > > >
> > > > > Nowhere, because no matter how much good you do, which is a
> lot to
> > > > > give you props, YOU follow it up by dissing everybody, not
> the
> > > > > "enemy", peeps within the movement on the same side, because
> > > > > everything is always about YOU and your egotrip.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which was my only question that began all of this, why do YOU
> > > > > constantly attack and alienate peeps who are already on the
> same side,
> > > > > in the same cause? That's all YOU Dana. It's not the ibogaine
> > > > > movement, it's not the marijuana movement. It's YOU. I wasn't
> even
> > > > > dissing you when this began, I was asking why do you keep
> doing that
> > > > > when you went off on Rob and wrote him real obnoxious hate
> mail and
> > > > > went and posted it everywhere, it makes no sense because you
> do
> > > > > contribute to all these causes a lot, then end up alienating
> all of
> > > > > them, for no reason except your egotrip and EVERYBODY has a
> ego, but
> > > > > it's like YOU are the only one who can't get along, you're
> too
> > > > > egotistical and disrespectful, even in a group of other
> egomaniacs.
> > > > >
> > > > > -broc
> > > > >
> > > > >> SIDEBAR
> > > > >>
> > > > >> PRO-POT GROUPS
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Alliance for Cannabis Therapeutics
> > > > >> They're aiming to change the laws that prohibit medical
> access to
> > > > >> marijuana.
> > > > >> www.marijuana-as-medicine.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Drug Policy Alliance
> > > > >> They're working to end the War on Drugs and for policies to
> be
> > > > >> based on
> > > > >> compassion and science.
> > > > >> www.drugpolicy.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
> > > > >> They support drug regulation rather than prohibition.
> > > > >> www.leap.com
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Marijuana Policy Project
> > > > >> They want to "reduce the harm associated with marijuana" and
> > > > >> believe prison
> > > > >> causes the greatest harm.
> > > > >> www.mpp.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >> National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws
> > > > >> They're trying to educate in order to repeal the prohibition
> of
> > > > >> marijuana
> > > > >> for responsible adult use.
> > > > >> www.norml.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Safer Alternative for Enjoyable Recreation
> > > > >> They're trying to educate people about the harms of alcohol
> > > > >> compared to
> > > > >> marijuana and support legalized adult use.
> > > > >> www.saferchoice.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Other groups:
> > > > >> -Alliance for Cannabis Therapeutics
> > > > >> -Americans for Safe Access
> > > > >> -Patients Out of Time
> > > > >> -Voluntary Committee of Lawyers
> > > > >> -Angel Wings Patient Outreach
> > > > >> -Business Alliance in Hemp
> > > > >> -Campaign For New Drug Policies (CA)
> > > > >> -Cannabis Consumers Campaign
> > > > >> -Change the Climate (MA)
> > > > >> -Educators for Sensible Drug Policy
> > > > >> -Efficacy (CT)
> > > > >> -FAMM (DC)
> > > > >> -Forfeiture Endangers American Rights
> > > > >> -Human Rights Watch/HR95
> > > > >> -Harm Reduction Founders Network/Family Watch
> > > > >> -Hemp Industries Association
> > > > >> -Vote Hemp
> > > > >> -Institute for Policy Studies (DC)
> > > > >> -Marijuana Party
> > > > >> -Marijuana Reform Party (NYC)
> > > > >> -MAMA (OR)
> > > > >> -National Advocates for Pregnant Women
> > > > >> -Parents Ending Prohibition
> > > > >> -Ohio Patient Network
> > > > >> -The Trebach Institute (DC)
> > > > >> -Virginians Against Drug Violence
> > > > >> -Sensible Seattle
> > > > >> -WAMM (Santa Cruz)
> > > >


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