[Ibogaine] correction

Carlton B hokkaidocrow at gmail.com
Fri Oct 6 10:03:56 EDT 2006


On 10/6/06, steven m welch <smwelch at optonline.net> wrote:
>
>  Hi--  I've been a non-participating, never-introduced, semi-attentive
> lurker on this list for quite a while because of my interest in Iboga,
> getting info supporting an ultimate goal of traveling to Gabon and
> participating in a Bitwi initiation experience.  I changed my plans
> recently, to the simpler idea of going for treatment in Vancouver, which I
> hadn't considered previously thinking it a half-measure that would spoil the
> authentic, because of what is being triggered in me by the absolutely
> extraordinary events underway in the world politically, militarily, and
> spiritually. The time is at hand, I need to clean up from a ridiculous
> re-addiction to a stimulant substance, get the paradigm unstuck and move on
> to play my part.
>

Do it brother, do it.  There are many ways to gauge the authenticity of the
experience.  Cultural authenticity would mean going to Gabon, eating some
roots, and rolling around in the dirt for a while.   I can see the appeal in
that, and I might do it myself one day.  But the treatment experience is
about you and your life, so the only authenticity you need to think about is
personal authenticity.   No matter where you go, the experience will be real
for you, and thus authentic.   Vancouver really is an amazing place; the
harm reduction movement is strong there, and the land itself is rich with
the ancient healing traditions of the first residents.   And being in
proximity with people who have given their lives to harm reduction and
life-saving is inspiring and healing in itself... so much that I feel like I
would have had a very similar positive experience if they'd dosed me with
2000mg of caffeine and washed it down with Robitussin and tequila.   There's
authenticity there, let there be no mistaking or hesitation.

I only give this thread half a mind—the discussion is mostly off-topic,
> which is certainly forgivable given the group's patina of long-established
> positions, and if I wasn't getting glimpses of what Iboga offers, I would
> leave. Well, bye.
>

Leave for a little while and come back.   Sometimes you need to; that's what
I do.   However, someone did mention to me (and I think it's a good idea)
that maybe there's a need for a provider's list.  Exactly what purpose she
had in mind I don't know, but I can see how it would be useful to have a
private space where the more notable figures (and I love you all, so don't
take this the wrong way) can air out their dirty laundry, work through
disagreements, and get their shit together before bringing it to the public
at large.   The ibogaine therapy movement can only benefit from this, and
I'm ready to make it happen whenever someone says "go", but in the meantime
it would be good for people to reflect on the harm resultant from these
squabbles and try to act like adults.

> This particular message is just so ugly, it leaves me feeling so
> horrified. The terrible attitude, the projection of harm, the obvious
> self-hatred, gives me despair just by proximity to the screen. Is this what
> Iboga offered you? Is this what you integrated? Have you any sense of what
> you're putting out there? Wake up, again then.
>
I totally resonate with that message.   From reading all the glowing
experiences, I thought iboga would be wonderfully instrumental in helping me
stop being an asshole (in some ways).  Then I read this list and I
thought... wow... so I guess it's not really an effective anti-asshole
therapy.   Now that I've gone through the ritual, I understand the truth is
more complex and it has to do with our perceptions and how we communicate.
Strong words can come from fear but they can also come from passion.
Suffice it to say that the ritual is not a cure for asshole-ism, but more of
an asshole-ism interruptor, and strong aftercare is needed to maintain the
therapeutic effects.   Perhaps it's time someone had a booster treatment.

-----Original Message-----
> *From:* eric priest [mailto:ericprst at yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 05, 2006 11:18 PM
> *To:* ibogaine at mindvox.com
> *Subject:* Re: Re: [Ibogaine] correction
>
>
>
> Patrick  - yawn - defending his crazed old friend. For the how manyth
> time? That is what a decent friend should do. It's rather cute. And money is
> good.
>
> Dana, acting anything other than diplomatic or coherent. SHOCKING! No one
> has ever heard of such a thing. And – snore - Howard and Deb fighting…
>
> Say it ain't so.
>
> The possibilities are endless, all the way from either to or with Dana.
> Conspiracies are much too much fun to ignore.
>
> Either: Dana is a shill for the man. He's down with the cops or has some
> MK-Ultra gig going and is merely a tool for keeping ibo lost in the
> netherworld. With a friend like him, who needs government suppression? This
> would explain his never becoming a baanzi. Good narcs don't taste.
>
> Or: Dana is touched. Years of being the lessor known sidekick of Abbie
> Hoffman and the lack of recognition for the very... uhm, significant work of
> late model yippies has taken it's toll. The smell of cat urine has gone to
> his brain. His last grasp for fame lay in a root of which he refuses to
> partake, causing torn and frayed behavior. A wounded animal, snarling and
> licking his wounds; dangerous. The seams are coming apart. The last gagging
> breath of the yippies is having trouble breathing. A lack of oxygen is
> causing the pesky voices in his head to get a little louder. Never pretty,
> but comedy isn't. Who wouldn't act a little out of sorts under such
> conditions? Of course we need to show compassion. Thank you Patrick.
>
> Which is it? Perhaps we shall never know. Oh the pity of it all.
>
> Very amused,
> Eric.
>
>
>
> *Dave Brockman <davebroc at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> Dog, much respect and understood. I haven't continued the thread and
> will just drop it. All of this began by asking a real simple question,
> which was why did Dana go so far out of his way to totally alienate
> Rob Kampia. Rob showed up for the ibo forum, he was into it. He left
> because Ken Alper is boring and it's not that likely that MPP is ever
> going to fund ibogaine anything and Rob does control Lewis' money,
> which is upsetting to a lot of peeps, including the DPA and every
> other cannabis activist org. But you know Rob went out and got the
> money in the first place, it's not like Lewis was a real big donator
> of funds to any counter culture causes even back like 5 years ago,
> it's all very recent. It's real hard to attack Rob for going out and
> getting himself his own funding, that's brand new even.
>
> I know Dana is Dana, I know he's your friend and you've known him
> since you were 12 or 13 or whatever, I can read, it's all online. All
> of this was escaleted by Dana who responded to the question, which btw
> included you biscuitboy, agreeing with me when I first asked it.
>
> I never said I was representing SSDP, that's something that's come
> back to me that Dana is asking peeps, that's all Dana, not me, never
> said that or even said anything implying it.
>
> No I'm not 'top hat' ;-) that was Nicky! I was the one sitting one
> over from Top Hat ;-)
>
> It's cool patrick, even if Dana posts another 30 paragraph rant in
> reply to this, I won't bother picking it up. Maybe someone else will,
> but like I have said at least 10 times, I really do have respect for
> the bro, I know Dana does a lot of good, I know who he is, everybody
> does, what I asked was why does he waste so much of his effort,
> undoing what he's done by throwing fits and spazzing out, dissing
> peeps, for no reason. Don't see the up side to any of that, but it's
> his prob, nobody else's.
>
> -broc
>
> On 10/3/06, Patrick K. Kroupa wrote:
> >
> > Kids, KidZ, ChildrenS ... I step out of the room for 5 minutes and
> > alla youz are beating each other over the heyd with sledgehammers.
> >
> > All I'm gonna do, is step back a few paces and take a look at the
> > Bigger Picture. Have Dana's recent actions been particularly helpful
> > in furthering the cause of ibogaine...? Well, prolly not. Would it be
> > a good idea to occasionally roll the dice, and try to get a sanity
> > check...? You bet! Is anything that is being said here going to
> > change anything? Fuck no.
> >
> > Dana is less than perfect, oh well. So's everybody, including
> > YOU ... although, I realize you may not be aware of this. At 23 I
> > WAS perfect and knew all the answers to the Whole Entire Everything.
> > It wasn't until I hit 30 that I realized I was a complete idiot.
> > Enjoy your state of grace while it lasts.
> >
> > When all is said and done ... Rob Kampia is grumpy, oh well.
> > Shit happens. No it wasn't exactly the ideal letter to send
> > out. Yes it WAS rude to Rob, as were the comments that followed and
> > were sent out to this list. Probably it will not directly pave the
> > wave for a glorious integration of ibogaine into the middle of all
> > these different groups' agendas. But then, it's not like that was
> > gonna be happening Any Minute Now, anywaze. Bummer n' all, but it's
> > really not the End of The World as We Know It.
> >
> > Dana HAS done a tremendous amount of good for a variety of causes.
> > If ibogaine happens to be sumthin' you care about, behind all the
> > bullshit, Dana has personally, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars
> > over the years, backing up his intentions, with action. He
> > believes. He does his best. Often, he is very effective at causing
> > positive change ... at other times he just becomes frustrated and
> > vents. He's human.
> >
> > By the way, Dave ... who the fuck are YOU? Were you the do0d in the
> > top hat? I asked this before, I don't think you ever replied, sorry
> > if you have and I missed it. Are you with SSDP...? 'Cuz nobody at
> > SSDP seems to be aware of you, at least not under the name "Dave Brock
> > (man)" or Broc.
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> > On Sep 22, 2006, at 2:32 PM, Dave Brockman wrote:
> >
> > > On 9/22/06, Dana Beal wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Do I detect a whiff of sarcasm in this post?
> > >
> > > Only in your head.
> > >
> > >> Apparently you are not, as some suspect, a friend of Rob Kampia.
> > >
> > > Say what? I never said I was a friend of Rob Kampia, exactly what I've
> > > said is that you acted like a dick to him for no reason except your
> > > special contribution looks like it is alienating peeps who are already
> > > on the same side and fracturing groups even further with no gain at
> > > all. MPP and NORML argue with each other, depending on what side you
> > > want to believe, Kampia was either fired or he quit, so he went and
> > > got millions from Lewis and did his own thing. You just dis everybody.
> > >
> > >> You just
> > >> don't like anything to be posted to this list that's overly
> > >> critical of
> > >> anyone associated with ibogaine or drug legalization.
> > >
> > > Say what? The only person I've ever critisized on this list is YOU.
> > > Just you, not the ibogaine movement, you Dana. YOU. Not how you dress,
> > > not how you live, not what you believe, but how you personally,
> > > alienate other people, personally, all in the name of ibogaine.
> > > "They're against ibogaine" no, they're not, they never were, in fact
> > > Kampia didn't even dis you back, exactly what he said was "You're very
> > > rude and disrespectul, don't ever contact me again" Do you get it yet?
> > > Inside your head everything is all about YOU, I'm critizising how YOU
> > > alienate people who are already on the same side, for no reason. But
> > > you can't handle that, inside your head I am critisizing the entire
> > > ibogaine movement, because inside your head YOU are the entire
> > > ibogaine movement.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Fortuitously, an article came in this morning that was not written
> > >> by me
> > >> (note Cures not Wars is not even listed, so it couldn't be by me)
> > >> that
> > >> explains some of the differences between NORML and MPP. I hope
> > >> that you can
> > >> see that my criticisms are widely shared, and not a just a matter
> > >> of me
> > >> going around trashing people as you implied in your last post. As the
> > >> dispute between Lotsof and Mash shows, there are real politiical
> > >> differences
> > >> that stand in the way of progress with ibogaine--differences that
> > >> deserve to
> > >> be aired and shared with the ibogaine list. Anyone who wants to
> > >> read it can
> > >> scroll down past Boaz's post....
> > >
> > > Thanks Dana, I've read it and you just made my point again. Read your
> > > own list of Marijuana Reform. You just posted this. Notice anything
> > > about it? Cures Not Wars isn't there. The MMM was started by you
> > > wasn't it? The MMM continues to be a huge force for positive change,
> > > yet even within the fractured medical marijuana movement, in this big
> > > letter you enclosed and I guess agree with, YOU don't exist. Your own
> > > movement doesn't recognize YOU. Do you see CNW anywhere here? I don't.
> > >
> > > Why is that Dana, I mean YOU are the ibogaine movement, YOU personally
> > > started medical marijuana right. So where are YOU?
> > >
> > > Nowhere, because no matter how much good you do, which is a lot to
> > > give you props, YOU follow it up by dissing everybody, not the
> > > "enemy", peeps within the movement on the same side, because
> > > everything is always about YOU and your egotrip.
> > >
> > > Which was my only question that began all of this, why do YOU
> > > constantly attack and alienate peeps who are already on the same side,
> > > in the same cause? That's all YOU Dana. It's not the ibogaine
> > > movement, it's not the marijuana movement. It's YOU. I wasn't even
> > > dissing you when this began, I was asking why do you keep doing that
> > > when you went off on Rob and wrote him real obnoxious hate mail and
> > > went and posted it everywhere, it makes no sense because you do
> > > contribute to all these causes a lot, then end up alienating all of
> > > them, for no reason except your egotrip and EVERYBODY has a ego, but
> > > it's like YOU are the only one who can't get along, you're too
> > > egotistical and disrespectful, even in a group of other egomaniacs.
> > >
> > > -broc
> > >
> > >> SIDEBAR
> > >>
> > >> PRO-POT GROUPS
> > >>
> > >> Alliance for Cannabis Therapeutics
> > >> They're aiming to change the laws that prohibit medical access to
> > >> marijuana.
> > >> www.marijuana-as-medicine.org
> > >>
> > >> Drug Policy Alliance
> > >> They're working to end the War on Drugs and for policies to be
> > >> based on
> > >> compassion and science.
> > >> www.drugpolicy.org
> > >>
> > >> Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
> > >> They support drug regulation rather than prohibition.
> > >> www.leap.com
> > >>
> > >> Marijuana Policy Project
> > >> They want to "reduce the harm associated with marijuana" and
> > >> believe prison
> > >> causes the greatest harm.
> > >> www.mpp.org
> > >>
> > >> National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws
> > >> They're trying to educate in order to repeal the prohibition of
> > >> marijuana
> > >> for responsible adult use.
> > >> www.norml.org
> > >>
> > >> Safer Alternative for Enjoyable Recreation
> > >> They're trying to educate people about the harms of alcohol
> > >> compared to
> > >> marijuana and support legalized adult use.
> > >> www.saferchoice.org
> > >>
> > >> Other groups:
> > >> -Alliance for Cannabis Therapeutics
> > >> -Americans for Safe Access
> > >> -Patients Out of Time
> > >> -Voluntary Committee of Lawyers
> > >> -Angel Wings Patient Outreach
> > >> -Business Alliance in Hemp
> > >> -Campaign For New Drug Policies (CA)
> > >> -Cannabis Consumers Campaign
> > >> -Change the Climate (MA)
> > >> -Educators for Sensible Drug Policy
> > >> -Efficacy (CT)
> > >> -FAMM (DC)
> > >> -Forfeiture Endangers American Rights
> > >> -Human Rights Watch/HR95
> > >> -Harm Reduction Founders Network/Family Watch
> > >> -Hemp Industries Association
> > >> -Vote Hemp
> > >> -Institute for Policy Studies (DC)
> > >> -Marijuana Party
> > >> -Marijuana Reform Party (NYC)
> > >> -MAMA (OR)
> > >> -National Advocates for Pregnant Women
> > >> -Parents Ending Prohibition
> > >> -Ohio Patient Network
> > >> -The Trebach Institute (DC)
> > >> -Virginians Against Drug Violence
> > >> -Sensible Seattle
> > >> -WAMM (Santa Cruz)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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