[Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

Preston Peet ptpeet at nyc.rr.com
Fri Mar 31 15:27:00 EST 2006


>Addicts are no different from anybody else. But suddenly this is the moment 
>for them to be "different", when the pressure is on a little suddenly it's 
>"I don't have to listen to you because you're not 'like me.'" I mean, shit, 
>did you ever hear such a manipulative load of old bollocks in your life? 
>I'd be embarrassed to come out with that crap.<

Why is it non-addicts seem to so often come out with this total canard "oh, 
that darned druggie/junkie is being manipulative"? Talk about complete and 
utter bullshit, particularly in this case.
Hasn't a single thing to do with the question. It appears to me that you 
don't know much about, much less about dealing with "the human condition" 
period, hence your willingly locking yourself into a tc; using "abusive" and 
"theraputic" in the same sentence as though they fit together; "yelling at 
others is healing for me" (what a selfish outlook on life it seems to me).
Sigh.

-----
"If God dropped acid, would he see people?"  ~Steven Wright

Peace and love.
Preston
ptpeet at nyc.rr.com
Editor Underground
Editor Under the Influence
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Cont. HighTimes mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Nick Sandberg
To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 8:42 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on stigma and 
methadone



-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Hehe [mailto:a.h.veil68 at hotmail.com]
Sent: 30 March 2006 23:56
To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on stigma and 
methadone


  Hey everyone. Nick, what is your deal? I bet you subscribe to that whole 
"tough love" theory too, eh?
Hey Alan,
I believe that if you see someone you care about doing shit you don't think 
is good for them then you should call them on it, yes. Is this what you 
mean?
 And how, pray tell, is abusive language going to make a difference on the 
"supposed" reptilian brain, since that part of the brain --the reptilian 
part--is much older than the part that deals with language.
It attracts attention.
  I wonder if you're not just trying to stir up controversy. And why don't 
you answer Preston's question as to whether you've ever been an addict, or 
experienced  withdrawal, or--especially--the stigma that comes with using or 
abusing any drugs--and in the minds of many, there is no difference.
I'm not a drug addict and I never have been. I work as a therapist assisting 
with Humaniversity therapy groups here at the Leela Centre where I live and 
in Holland at the Humaniversity. Leela is not a TC, does not primarily deal 
with addiction issues, Humaniversity is. This is my experiential background. 
However, if you care to actually read what I am saying, as opposed to simply 
reacting, you will see that this has little to do with anything of it.
If you do not like what I write, then why not simply say so? You want to 
engage in discussion, then you imply that somehow, because I'm not an 
addict, I don't know anything about the human condition as it is for 
addicts. That's just bollocks. Addicts are no different from anybody else. 
But suddenly this is the moment for them to be "different", when the 
pressure is on a little suddenly it's "I don't have to listen to you because 
you're not 'like me.'" I mean, shit, did you ever hear such a manipulative 
load of old bollocks in your life? I'd be embarrassed to come out with that 
crap.
I do not see addicts as addicts first but as people first, with addiction 
issues.

 Well, there certainly is, I can tell you that. Through-out my life I've 
experimented with many drugs, for varying lengths of time...and always, I 
would eventually tire of whatever chemical I was using (with the exception 
of marijuana, which I view as a medicine and sacrament..although even my use 
of this has been prevented by the worms who have nothing better to do than 
tell others what THEY can and cannot do) and leave it behind. The same would 
be true of my use of opiates, were it not for my inability to withstand the 
withdrawal...and let me tell you, NO ONE CAN POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND EITHER THE 
BLISS OF POWERFUL OPIATES, OR THE HELL WITHDRAWALING FROM THEM!. 
Personally, I'm tired of this whole subject; if you truly are an addict, I'm 
sure you can find someone to abuse you night and day with offensive 
language. Let me know when it starts to work. I don't mean to be rude, but 
addicts--a term that I hate--go thru enough abuse without any extra. Peace!
Opiates I don't take and have only taken a little in my life. Opiate is an 
analgesic, it stops you feeling. If you experience bliss from an analgesic 
it is because your body is struggling to hold down a lot of feelings your 
ego has decided it doesn't want to have. I don't see another reason for it, 
happy to hear one if you have it. And I'm not just being a judgmental mf. It 
can happen to anyone. If your ego orientation is strongly away from feeling, 
you want to look cool, but you actually have a lot of feelings then opiates 
will give bliss for sure. Some people need opiates just to keep feelings 
down enough to function. It's common.
Nick






From:  "Preston Peet" <ptpeet at nyc.rr.com>
Reply-To:  ibogaine at mindvox.com
To:  <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on stigma and 
methadone
Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 2006 13:36:13 -0500
>>I'm saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic
>>process.<
>
>LOL, somehow I'm having a LOT of trouble equating "abusive" and
>"therapeutic" in any process whatsoever Nick.
>You never actually answered my question- have you ever been a
>"fucking junkie" Nick, or are you merely projecting your own ideas
>about what serves "junkies" best and what is most "therapeutic" for
>"junkies"?
>Peace and love.
>-----
>"If God dropped acid, would he see people?"  ~Steven Wright
>
>Peace and love.
>Preston
>ptpeet at nyc.rr.com
>Editor Underground
>Editor Under the Influence
>Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>Cont. HighTimes mag/.com
>Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>Columnist New York Waste
>Etc.
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Sandberg
>To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:20 AM
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on
>stigma and methadone
>
>
>Hey Alberto,
>
>It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP
>is fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the
>latter you can use more abusive language if it expresses what you
>feel. I am not suggesting that you should start a session by saying
>to the client, "Yo fuckwit you're in a right fucking state!" I'm
>saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic
>process. I'm also saying that you have to watch a little the "poor
>baby" routine with this nice guy approach. It's the easiest thing in
>the world to be the addict's friend. You just don't show them the
>place where they don't want to go and they will love you forever.
>This is what I see Peter Cohen doing.
>
>Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen
>are trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that
>is, to me, a few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic
>pronouncements without awareness or experience. It's this side of it
>that I also bring up. You cannot so easily resolve addiction with
>the higher mind, imo. It's more reptilian brain stuff. There need to
>be deep rooted changes at this level. Stuff needs to happen
>experientially - maturation, resolution of conflict, increased
>awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy - for most
>this is the case. I don't make pronouncements for everybody.
>
>Nick
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Alberto Sola [mailto:plago at hotmail.com]
>Sent: 30 March 2006 02:50
>To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on
>stigma and methadone
>
>
>Hola:
>Medical profesionals, should treat everybody with respect. The slang
>terms are both offensive and give no benefit for the patients. Those
>terms are judgemental and make the patient doctor comunication more
>difficult. On top of that like all slang the terms are not
>scientifically adecuate. We would not write them in a medical
>journal. I agree with Howard we have to promote the right language.
>Slowly will change the attitudes, it's called neurolinguistic
>programing.
>Saludos
>Alberto
>
>
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