[Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

Nick Sandberg nick227 at tiscali.co.uk
Fri Mar 31 09:04:31 EST 2006

  -----Original Message-----
  From: HSLotsof at aol.com [mailto:HSLotsof at aol.com]
  Sent: 30 March 2006 18:19
  To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
  Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on stigma and


  It is not a matter of resolving addiction.  It is a matter of respect,
Yes brain washing and torture work. There is also the adage, you can attract
more flies with honey than with vinegar. I just think people should be
treated decently and that is more important than whether they are using
drugs or not.  Just to be clear, though you did not say it, I don't consider
myself a mindy academic.  I've been in the trenches.



  I do not regard you as a mindy academic. I also don't regard you as above
misunderstanding, or getting caught in reaction. I would appreciate it if
you could explain to me just how brain-washing and torture relate to
encounter therapy? I have not stated or inferred that I don't think people
should be treated without respect, simply that there are two sides to the
coin, with the positive there also comes the negative - What I like about
you is.....; What I don't like about you is... This is how it goes, share
both sides. That is what I'm saying. With the whole pc trip, there's a
danger you start to use only one side. And this doesn't usually work.

  I have to say that it seems to me that even discussing encounter therapy
trips so many people out they are just reacting all over the place. Perhaps
there is another explanation or I am wrong.


  In a message dated 3/30/06 8:21:08 AM, nick227 at tiscali.co.uk writes:

    Hey Alberto,

    It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP is
fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the latter you can
use more abusive language if it expresses what you feel. I am not suggesting
that you should start a session by saying to the client, "Yo fuckwit you're
in a right fucking state!" I'm saying there is a place for abusive language
in the therapeutic process. I'm also saying that you have to watch a little
the "poor baby" routine with this nice guy approach. It's the easiest thing
in the world to be the addict's friend. You just don't show them the place
where they don't want to go and they will love you forever. This is what I
see Peter Cohen doing.

    Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen are
trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that is, to me, a
few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic pronouncements without
awareness or experience. It's this side of it that I also bring up. You
cannot so easily resolve addiction with the higher mind, imo. It's more
reptilian brain stuff. There need to be deep rooted changes at this level.
Stuff needs to happen experientially - maturation, resolution of conflict,
increased awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy - for most
this is the case. I don't make pronouncements for everybody.


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Alberto Sola [mailto:plago at hotmail.com]
    Sent: 30 March 2006 02:50
    To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
    Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on stigma
and methadone

    Medical profesionals, should treat everybody with respect. The slang
terms are both offensive and give no benefit for the patients. Those terms
are judgemental and make the patient doctor comunication more difficult. On
top of that like all slang the terms are not scientifically adecuate. We
would not write them in a medical journal. I agree with Howard we have to
promote the right language. Slowly will change the attitudes, it's called
neurolinguistic programing.

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