[Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on stigma and methadone

Nick Sandberg nick227 at tiscali.co.uk
Fri Mar 31 08:42:39 EST 2006

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Alan Hehe [mailto:a.h.veil68 at hotmail.com]
  Sent: 30 March 2006 23:56
  To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
  Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on stigma and

    Hey everyone. Nick, what is your deal? I bet you subscribe to that whole
"tough love" theory too, eh?

  Hey Alan,

  I believe that if you see someone you care about doing shit you don't
think is good for them then you should call them on it, yes. Is this what
you mean?

   And how, pray tell, is abusive language going to make a difference on the
"supposed" reptilian brain, since that part of the brain --the reptilian
part--is much older than the part that deals with language.

  It attracts attention.

    I wonder if you're not just trying to stir up controversy. And why don't
you answer Preston's question as to whether you've ever been an addict, or
experienced  withdrawal, or--especially--the stigma that comes with using or
abusing any drugs--and in the minds of many, there is no difference.

  I'm not a drug addict and I never have been. I work as a therapist
assisting with Humaniversity therapy groups here at the Leela Centre where I
live and in Holland at the Humaniversity. Leela is not a TC, does not
primarily deal with addiction issues, Humaniversity is. This is my
experiential background. However, if you care to actually read what I am
saying, as opposed to simply reacting, you will see that this has little to
do with anything of it.

  If you do not like what I write, then why not simply say so? You want to
engage in discussion, then you imply that somehow, because I'm not an
addict, I don't know anything about the human condition as it is for
addicts. That's just bollocks. Addicts are no different from anybody else.
But suddenly this is the moment for them to be "different", when the
pressure is on a little suddenly it's "I don't have to listen to you because
you're not 'like me.'" I mean, shit, did you ever hear such a manipulative
load of old bollocks in your life? I'd be embarrassed to come out with that

  I do not see addicts as addicts first but as people first, with addiction

   Well, there certainly is, I can tell you that. Through-out my life I've
experimented with many drugs, for varying lengths of time...and always, I
would eventually tire of whatever chemical I was using (with the exception
of marijuana, which I view as a medicine and sacrament..although even my use
of this has been prevented by the worms who have nothing better to do than
tell others what THEY can and cannot do) and leave it behind. The same would
be true of my use of opiates, were it not for my inability to withstand the
withdrawal...and let me tell you, NO ONE CAN POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND EITHER THE
Personally, I'm tired of this whole subject; if you truly are an addict, I'm
sure you can find someone to abuse you night and day with offensive
language. Let me know when it starts to work. I don't mean to be rude, but
addicts--a term that I hate--go thru enough abuse without any extra. Peace!

  Opiates I don't take and have only taken a little in my life. Opiate is an
analgesic, it stops you feeling. If you experience bliss from an analgesic
it is because your body is struggling to hold down a lot of feelings your
ego has decided it doesn't want to have. I don't see another reason for it,
happy to hear one if you have it. And I'm not just being a judgmental mf. It
can happen to anyone. If your ego orientation is strongly away from feeling,
you want to look cool, but you actually have a lot of feelings then opiates
will give bliss for sure. Some people need opiates just to keep feelings
down enough to function. It's common.



    From:  "Preston Peet" <ptpeet at nyc.rr.com>
    Reply-To:  ibogaine at mindvox.com
    To:  <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
    Subject:  Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on stigma
and methadone
    Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 2006 13:36:13 -0500
    >>I'm saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic
    >LOL, somehow I'm having a LOT of trouble equating "abusive" and
    >"therapeutic" in any process whatsoever Nick.
    >You never actually answered my question- have you ever been a
    >"fucking junkie" Nick, or are you merely projecting your own ideas
    >about what serves "junkies" best and what is most "therapeutic" for
    >Peace and love.
    >"If God dropped acid, would he see people?"  ~Steven Wright
    >Peace and love.
    >ptpeet at nyc.rr.com
    >Editor Underground
    >Editor Under the Influence
    >Editor http://www.drugwar.com
    >Cont. HighTimes mag/.com
    >Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
    >Columnist New York Waste
    >----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Sandberg
    >To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
    >Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:20 AM
    >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on
    >stigma and methadone
    >Hey Alberto,
    >It is not so much about creating offense, more about being real. NLP
    >is fine and has its place. Likewise encounter therapy. With the
    >latter you can use more abusive language if it expresses what you
    >feel. I am not suggesting that you should start a session by saying
    >to the client, "Yo fuckwit you're in a right fucking state!" I'm
    >saying there is a place for abusive language in the therapeutic
    >process. I'm also saying that you have to watch a little the "poor
    >baby" routine with this nice guy approach. It's the easiest thing in
    >the world to be the addict's friend. You just don't show them the
    >place where they don't want to go and they will love you forever.
    >This is what I see Peter Cohen doing.
    >Generally, I support what people like Herman Joseph and Peter Cohen
    >are trying to do. But there is also the side of this movement that
    >is, to me, a few mindy academics making pseudo-humanistic
    >pronouncements without awareness or experience. It's this side of it
    >that I also bring up. You cannot so easily resolve addiction with
    >the higher mind, imo. It's more reptilian brain stuff. There need to
    >be deep rooted changes at this level. Stuff needs to happen
    >experientially - maturation, resolution of conflict, increased
    >awareness of the inner dynamic, redirection of energy - for most
    >this is the case. I don't make pronouncements for everybody.
    >-----Original Message-----
    >From: Alberto Sola [mailto:plago at hotmail.com]
    >Sent: 30 March 2006 02:50
    >To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
    >Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] from methadone list - Herman Joseph on
    >stigma and methadone
    >Medical profesionals, should treat everybody with respect. The slang
    >terms are both offensive and give no benefit for the patients. Those
    >terms are judgemental and make the patient doctor comunication more
    >difficult. On top of that like all slang the terms are not
    >scientifically adecuate. We would not write them in a medical
    >journal. I agree with Howard we have to promote the right language.
    >Slowly will change the attitudes, it's called neurolinguistic
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