[Ibogaine] Fw: how long does it take meth to clear the body b/4 one can switch to pure bup

Paul Brookshaw jiggy9 at hotmail.co.uk
Thu Mar 2 13:04:11 EST 2006


Hi Ron,
         I explained all of this before to you mate. If you are on too high 
a dose of Methadone, say over 20ml, you are gong to have a rough five days 
withdrawal. The Methadone will be out of your system, blood clean, in four 
days.
You can switch from Methadone to a single Ion Opiate, Buprenorphine, after 
abstinence of said Methadone, after 30-48 hours. If you can hold out until 
day five with nothing then you will not withdraw when you take the 
Buprenorphine. You have to experience at least 4 or five days withdrawal 
either way. Plus you have to stop all of the short acting Opiates as well. 
Oxy and all Codeines. If you take the shorter root of 4 days, then abstain 
all Opiates for 30 hours and then take a small amount of Buprenorphine. At 
this stage, seeing that you are not blood clean, the Buprenophine will have 
an antagonist affect on the rest of the Methadone in your blood. (Remember 
it takes four days to get blood clean off Methadone. Short acting, half that 
and slow release or sustained release, four days.)
You will experience a withdrawal on a Parr with you waiting four days. But 
you can control this at this time with small amounts of short acting.
You should be stable on just Buprenophine by day seven.
I am trying to help you mate. There ain't no easy way, cos believe me bro, 
When I say I have tried many different ways of switching from one Opiate to 
another and it ain't easy. You didn't get where you are today without it 
taking you many days, weeks, months, years, your whole life. You are the sum 
total of that life. You are in control, as much as society and your 
conscience will allow. If you build a prison in your mind, then remember, 
you made it, so you can take down the walls and walk out. It is your choice. 
No one can make it for you. You can only listen to advice and then come to 
your own conclusions of what is or is not real.
I can only give you my experience as a guide. Someone may have a better idea 
than me. If they do then I wish that I knew about it, 10-20 odd years back! 
Then I wouldn't still be fighting a beast I am only just beginning to 
understand, after many years of non self exploration and only self 
experimentation and self abuse, looking for the answers to who I am today.
I would just like to add also at this point, to whoever is reading this. I 
do not give a monkeys hind ------- whoever I stomp all over on this list, 
with my views. At least I can say that I have took the time to investigate 
and study, with body and mind, what I say. So if it brings the person closer 
to a point of looking at themselves, then I have done a good job!!! So sod 
you lot who just do not agree, Debate,!!! Speak, but put your brain in gear 
before you act please. Stupid comments like "just swapping one addiction for 
another" are just totally useless, and just prove to me, that the person has 
not even thought of or lived the life of Physical Addiction and the ways in 
which to cope with this condition. All debate can never be called negative, 
as exchange of views is paramount to man so that he may understand how he 
fits in this crazy world.
I wish all of you the best in your quests for what you are looking for. But 
please remember we where born with all the tools we need to live, it is just 
that this crazy world has made us not use them(prevented us from using, or 
never allowed us to) for so long that we have forgotten, how to live and be 
and enjoy just being alive.
For surely that is what we are all looking for. But firstly we must look to 
ourselves and see,(if we can) where we are not connecting with ourselves and 
rectify this. For when we connect with ourselves we shall automatically 
connect with the world. The energy of pure life force is very contagious. 
Are you just alive or are you living your life?
Strength, Power and Honour.
                                                  Paul.



>From: "grasshopper" <rwd3 at cox.net>
>Reply-To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Fw: how long does it take meth to clear the bodyy 
>b/4 one can switch to pure bup
>Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 10:01:04 -0600
>
>anyone know how long it takes methadone to clear the body after last dose 
>b/4 one can take the pure Bup? thanks , ron ( to avoid withdrawals).
>as a follow up,  if one takes bup b/4 the meth clears and goes into w/ds, 
>how long do the w/ds last before one can get comfortable w/ bup?  thanks to 
>all, ron
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Preston Peet
>   To: ibogaine at mindvox.com ; drugwar at mindvox.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 5:54 AM
>   Subject: [Ibogaine] Fw: Methadone comparison with buprenorphine (pure) 
>from Norway.
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Andrew Byrne
>   To: ajbyrne at ozemail.com.au
>   Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 6:01 PM
>   Subject: Methadone comparison with buprenorphine (pure) from Norway.
>
>
>   A randomised clinical trial of methadone vs. buprenorphine to opioid 
>dependants. Kristensen O, Espegren O, Asland R, Jakobsen E, Lie O, Seiler 
>S. Tidsskr Nor Laegeforen 2005 125;2:148-151
>
>
>
>   Dear Colleagues,
>
>   After decades of denial in Norway, methadone was finally introduced in 
>1998 and buprenorphine in 2000 for opioid dependence.  These researchers 
>set out to compare the effects of the two maintenance therapies in their 
>own drug using population.
>
>
>
>   There were 50 long term (>10 years) opioid dependent subjects randomised 
>to receive 16mg fixed dose buprenorphine or variable dose methadone (mean 
>daily dose 106mg, range 80-160mg) over 6 months observation.  Patient 
>retention rate was 85% in the methadone group and 36% for those prescribed 
>buprenorphine.  Opiate positive urine tests were slightly lower in the 
>methadone group (20% vs. 24%).  Importantly, the methadone subjects 
>reported less high risk behaviour.  For some reason, only the buprenorphine 
>group (or the minority who remained in the trial) reported significant 
>improvements in general health.
>
>
>
>   This small study should be the last to compare methadone and 
>buprenorphine in this way.  Their results were predictable, adding little 
>more than Scandinavian corroboration to 20 years of preceding research.  
>The fixed dose buprenorphine dosing schedule here was probably based on a 
>successful Swedish model (Kakko, 2003).  However, methadone and 
>buprenorphine should both be prescribed in tailored doses according to 
>clinical need, using appropriate increments (eg 5mg for methadone, 0.4mg 
>for buprenorphine).  It is likely that some buprenorphine patients in this 
>trial dropped out because they received too little or too much of the drug 
>(32mg is the maximum recommended dose).  I could only access this abstract 
>in English translation, so I am not able to bring further details at this 
>point.
>
>
>
>   There is no longer any doubt that both methadone and buprenorphine are 
>effective for substantial numbers of heroin addicted subjects treated with 
>adequate supervised (and flexible) doses along with psychosocial supports.
>
>
>
>   From a body of research, including numerous RCT's, we know that when 
>compared to buprenorphine: (1) methadone generally suits a higher 
>proportion of the total and (2) it reduces the use of other opiates to a 
>greater degree and (3) whilst in treatment, such patients are less likely 
>to be involved in high risk behaviours.  Methadone is also considered to be 
>safe in pregnancy and is much cheaper and easier to administer.  Thus 
>methadone should probably still be our preferred first option and 
>buprenorphine kept in reserve for particular indications.  If there are 
>concerns about patients misusing methadone then take-away doses should be 
>limited until stability has been demonstrated.  It may be that long-term 
>users are less likely to fare well on buprenorphine, as shown in this 
>study.
>
>
>
>   It is unfortunate that decisions for physicians and especially for 
>patients are frequently dictated not by clinical considerations as much as 
>by regulatory constraints.  In some countries (and for no logical reason) 
>these are far more onerous and odious for methadone, while others 
>artificially restrict or even ban the use of buprenorphine for addiction 
>treatment, despite almost 20 years of favourable research.
>
>
>
>   My feeling is that buprenorphine should be available as an option to all 
>patients who report problems taking methadone.  Such patients, however, 
>should be carefully monitored since a high proportion relapse (in this case 
>74% within 6 months) and may need to transfer back to methadone or to 
>consider other alternatives such as detoxification.
>
>
>
>   There is no indication that new combination formulation of buprenorphine 
>(with naloxone) will be any more effective than the pure product.  Some 
>evidence points towards lowered efficacy (50% higher doses were required in 
>one small comparative trial).  While some have stated that sublingual 
>naloxone is not relevant clinically, others have found objective changes 
>and significant absorption (10% or more).  Naloxone has a rapid serum 
>clearance time (~5 minute half life) but its serum half life following 
>distribution is just over one hour.  While one hopes for less diversion 
>with this formulation, Charles (Bob) Schuster writes: "It is unlikely, 
>however, that any formulation can be developed that cannot be altered by 
>'street chemists' into a more abusable form."
>
>
>
>   Comments by Andrew Byrne ..
>
>
>
>   References:
>
>
>
>   Harris DS, Jones RT,  Welm S, Upton RA, Lin E, Mendelson J. 
>Buprenorphine and naloxone co-administration in opiate-dependent patients 
>stabilized on sublingual buprenorphine. 2000 Drug and Alcohol Dependence 
>61:85-94
>
>
>
>   Berkowitz BA. The relationship of pharmacokinetic to pharmacological 
>activity: morphine, methadone and naloxone. Clin Pharmacokinet. 1976 
>1;3:219-30
>
>
>
>   Kakko J, Svanborg KD, Kreek MJ, Heilig M. 1-year retention and social 
>function after buprenorphine-associated relapse prevention treatment for 
>heroin dependence in Sweden: a randomised, placebo-controlled trial. (2003) 
>Lancet 361:662-668
>
>
>
>   Schuster CR. History and current perspectives on the use of drug 
>formulations to decrease the abuse of prescription drugs. Drug and Alcohol 
>Dependence (2006 in press, pre-publication version, accessed 28/2/06)
>
>
>
>   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>      Dr Andrew Byrne MB BS (Syd) FAChAM (RACP)
>
>      Dependency Medicine,
>
>      75 Redfern Street, Redfern,
>
>      New South Wales, 2016, Australia
>
>      Email - ajbyrneATozemail.com.au
>
>      Tel (61 - 2) 9319 5524  Fax 9318 0631
>
>   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>   Thomas De Quincey's Confessions book on free web site:
>
>   http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2040/2040-h/2040-h.htm
>
>   My grandfather Harry Gracie's letters from 1924 trip to Mayo Clinic:
>
>   http://bpresent.com/harry/code/mayo.htm
>
>   Author of: "Addict in the Family" and
>
>   "Methadone in the Treatment of Narcotic Addiction"
>
>   http://www.csdp.org/addict/
>
>   http://www.drugpolicy.org/library/byrne_contents_methadone2.cfm
>
>
>
>   AATOD Dole-Nyswander Award nominee, Atlanta 2006.
>
>
>
>

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