[Ibogaine] Ibogaine fatality paper

Warren Theriot warrentheriot at comcast.net
Thu Jun 1 18:30:09 EDT 2006


I believe Atropine blocks or reverses the effect that ibogaine has on  
the Acetylcholine receptors. I wish someone would explain how that  
also can reverse the effects on the other neurotransmitters, to  
"knock-out" Ibogaine. Maybe the whole effect is that it changes the  
brainwave patterns so unique to Ibogaine's restorative powers. What  
does one do if the withdrawal symptoms  return? I sounds like one  
really needs to detox for a few weeks before Ibogaine to be safer.  
How safe for one's heart are serious withdrawal symptoms?
Warren

On Jun 1, 2006, at 3:13 PM, HSLotsof at aol.com wrote:

> 2 mg/kg of atropine may also prove fatal. And what exactly does  
> "knocks out mean"?
>
> Howard
>
> In a message dated 6/1/06 5:12:04 PM, jiggy9 at hotmail.co.uk writes:
>
>
>> Atropine 2mg/kg body weight, knocks out Iboga.
>>                                                       P,;)~~~
>>
>>
>> >From: "Nick Sandberg" <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk>
>> >Reply-To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>> >To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>> >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine fatality paper
>> >Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:33:17 +0100
>> >
>> >Dear Uwe and Suester,
>> >
>> >Many thanks for taking the time to write such a comprehensive  
>> reply. I very
>> >much appreciate what you are doing for iboga. I would like to  
>> stick a few
>> >ideas/comments in along the way...
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: umaas at scientific-african.org [mailto:umaas at scientific- 
>> african.org]
>> > > Sent: 28 May 2006 08:03
>> > > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>> > > Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine fatality paper
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Dear Nick, Luke, Sara, Rachel, Ekki, Edward, Howard and Alberto:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Thanks so lot for sharing all these experiences and different
>> > > viewpoints with
>> > > us! Of course, we have no answers to all these remaining
>> > > questions, but we will
>> > > try to do the same:
>> > >
>> > > First, it's true that also in Africa occasionally patients die,
>> > > but it seems to
>> > > us that it doesn't happen really often compared to the  
>> frequency of
>> > > initiations: We only learned to know one healer (among at least
>> > > 20 we asked,
>> > > some of them chairmen of a traditional healers organization) who
>> > > told us that
>> > > he really personally heard about two fatal cases that happened  
>> to his
>> > > colleagues. Unfortunately, he was not able (or didn't want) to
>> > > tell us more
>> > > details. He stated that what they call a "complete confession" is
>> > > the essential
>> > > intervention to prevent this and that it might be important to  
>> find an
>> > > individual dosage of Iboga to lead the patient well, but that
>> > > "nobody ever died
>> > > because of a high dose" - in contrary, that a low dose even might
>> > > be the problem
>> > > because deepgoing visions might be blocked.
>> > >
>> >
>> >If the cause of death is put down in Africa as the result of an  
>> incomplete
>> >confession, then I'd say the implication is that the Bwiti  
>> believe that
>> >there is a psychological root to it. If someone doesn't want to  
>> "own" or
>> >admit his or her "errors" in life then I guess there would be an  
>> inner
>> >struggle as the drug attempts to open the mind up. There will be  
>> some
>> >"resistance," as they say in therapy. This makes sense to me,  
>> though it
>> >would seem a fairly major thing to die from simple denial.
>> >
>> > > We were told about another fatal case that happened at Port
>> > > Gentil (a coastal
>> > > town grown on oil production, a place with a lot of "bad
>> > > spirits"), but nobody
>> > > knew the healer involved in this case. The only information  
>> was that the
>> > > patient, a young man, had a lot of troubles as well within his
>> > > family as at
>> > > work, that's why he went alone to this place far away from his
>> > > home to get the
>> > > treatment there.
>> > >
>> > > It's not easy to talk with the traditional healers about how  
>> to prevent
>> > > fatalities. Most of them stated that they know herbal "antidots"
>> > > that they are
>> > > not allowed to tell to Europeans (the "secret" is something
>> > > essential there as
>> > > in most oral cultures and we are beginning to get an idea about
>> > > what it really
>> > > means), only one told us what the antidot is. But nobody  
>> stated that
>> >these
>> > > antidots might be life-saving as a "herbal medicine" - it seems
>> > > that they might
>> > > be used to guide the treatment on one hand, to protect the
>> > > patient from the
>> > > attack of bad spirits on the other. Several healers were
>> > > convinced that once a
>> > > patient "starts to die", noone is really able to save him - this
>> > > might reflect
>> > > lethal arrhythmia in medical terms but remains our Western  
>> hypothesis,
>> >of
>> > > course.
>> > >
>> >
>> >I seem to recall that atropine is sometimes regarded as an ibogaine
>> >"antidote." Is this to what you refer?
>> >
>> > > Just about five or six healers who already knew us well went
>> > > deeper in their
>> > > explanations. And they all stated more or less the same: Death  
>> may occur
>> > > because the patient himself is experiencing something within his
>> > > vision that is
>> > > making it difficult for him or her to continue living (which
>> > > means a "SPIRITUAL
>> > > SUICIDE" and might correspond to what Nick calls a "fairly high
>> > > level of death
>> > > wish repressed within") or, on the other hand, the patient might
>> > > "see" somthing
>> > > that might be dangerous for others and that's why they "kill"  
>> him or her
>> > > spiritually (which means a "SPIRITUAL MURDER"). Interstingly  
>> enough on
>> >the
>> > > medical field, healers consider situations with a supposingly  
>> rising
>> > > parasympathetic tone (urination, defecation, sleeping) as
>> > > particulary dangerous
>> > > - and they never leave anybody alone in these situations.
>> > >
>> > > So Nick: we think they have an "idea" on the basis of their  
>> traditional
>> > > social/medical/religious system (which is rather sophisticated
>> > > and to us seems
>> > > to be at least as consistant as our Western concepts, not to
>> > > speak about what
>> > > we really think ourselves after what happened to us during these
>> > > initiation
>> > > ceremonies!) and their practice is build  on this idea -  
>> which, of
>> >course,
>> > > doesn't mean that it "works". - Nevertheless, we agree that  
>> specially at
>> > > Libreville (and that's what most Western travellers know) there
>> > > are a lot of
>> > > different "lodges" with more or less synchretistic concepts  
>> and a lot of
>> > > conflicts between them, a situation which really makes it
>> > > difficult to trust
>> > > all these young, male, sunglasses-bearing "traditional
>> > > healers"... but we think
>> > > this reflects merely the social (and material) situation in a
>> > > southern capital
>> > > than Bwiti spirituality which after our own experience is able to
>> > > integrate a
>> > > lot of influences without really losing what is "essential" in  
>> a village
>> > > context.
>> > >
>> > > Dear Howard: we really appreciate how open-minded and positively
>> > > thinking you
>> > > are, after all these years of struggle  and the vast experience
>> > > you got! Trying
>> > > to answer question about the "full body tremors": of course we're
>> > > not sure what
>> > > the healer you met really was speaking about, but we think this
>> > > might have been
>> > > what they call a "possession trance" (and seems indeed to be
>> > > related to what you
>> > > might find in Pentecostal ceremonies, for instance, and in  
>> many other
>> > > trance-related rituals all over the world). This sort of "trance
>> > > state" at the
>> > > Mitsogho tribe is induced solely musically (by introducing a
>> >contradictory
>> > > rhythm) and is used at every woman's initiation before giving the
>> > > root bark to
>> > > PREVENT death (this is an essential point most possibly  
>> originating in
>> >the
>> > > Mitsogho's original Mabandji-initiation-ritual which has spread
>> > > from there to
>> > > many other lodges). Are you sure the healer meant that it might
>> > > PROVOKE death?
>> > > Normally, as far as we know, this sort of trance is not provoked
>> > > pharmacologically, but it might happen (as we experienced several
>> > > times) to
>> > > women before initiation (and outside the ritual context!) while
>> > > listening and
>> > > moving to traditional music. Interestingly enough, to the
>> > > Mitsogho who call
>> > > this situation a "crisis" does it mean that the person who was
>> > > involved HAS to
>> > > be intitiated "to get to know the spirit that is possessing her"
>> > > (it is also
>> > > possible for men to get initiated into the Mabandji, but that's a
>> > > minority and
>> > > the ones we know do not behave in a really typical "male" way  
>> outside
>> >the
>> > > ritual; and we never heard that a man could get a "crisis"
>> > > outside the ritual
>> > > context).
>> > >
>> >
>> >I imagine that a more Western idea of "possession" is that  
>> accessing and
>> >integrating of repressed aspects of the psyche in therapy. Sometimes
>> >they're
>> >called "sub-personalities." It's generally reckoned to be a  
>> highly healthy
>> >thing to do.
>> >
>> >That's it!
>> >
>> >Nick
>> >
>> > > It was surprising to us that Suester, as a woman who grew up  
>> not only in
>> >a
>> > > Western society and with the viewpoint of Western sciences,  
>> but also
>> >with
>> > > Western music, was reacting and performing exactly the same way
>> > > as the Mitsogho
>> > > did during their intiation, which meant to us that there might be
>> > > some cerebral
>> > > correlate for this reaction. - As this is really a women's
>> > > secret, she is not
>> > > allowed to speak about the experience "from inside", but there  
>> are
>> >obvious
>> > > positive consequences for the individual: The Mitsogho state that
>> > > an initiated
>> > > woman should fall into a "possession trance" at least once a year
>> > > "to meet her
>> > > spirit" and that seems reasonnable, as Suester herself got  
>> into an
>> > > extraordinary good mood for at least weeks after every time they
>> > > provoked this
>> > > reaction...
>> > >
>> > > Yet another explanation of possibly dangerous "full body tremors"
>> > > could be that
>> > > the healer was speaking about generalized epileptic seizures: We
>> > > personally
>> > > know about one case where a young man who got initiated to treat
>> > > alcohol-related problems (and who "needed about twice as much  
>> Iboga as
>> > > normally") was suffering three times within 24 hours from such
>> > > seizures, but
>> > > that could have been related to the drug-related situation.
>> > > Several healers
>> > > told us that they never before experienced something like that.
>> > >
>> > > Dear Edward: thanks so lot for sharing your experiences with  
>> us! Most
>> > > interestingly to us (of course, without knowing your spiritual
>> > > background), you
>> > > mention that often dreams and intuitive knowing are leading you
>> > > the right way to
>> > > treat - we're sure you know that that's exactly what the Mitsogho
>> > > say! but what
>> > > normally seems a little strange to most Western ears an minds. -
>> > > As a medical
>> > > doctor, I would like to tell you that strange experience that
>> > > every time I went
>> > > into the forest with a traditional healer to collect different
>> > > barks, they were
>> > > astonished that I wasn't able to know the effect of the  
>> medicament from
>> > > watching, even not from smelling and tasting it! a knowledge  
>> that had
>> >been
>> > > summarized in Europe by the great Paracelsus already some  
>> centuries
>> >ago...
>> > >
>> > > Dear Alberto: very interesting that you are working with Ibogaine
>> > > in Cancun,
>> > > specially as we are going to live and work (with an Austrian  
>> development
>> > > agency) at Puerto Cabezas (Northern Atlantic coast of  
>> Nicaragua) up from
>> > > august, so maybe we could get the possibility to see you there  
>> one day!
>> > >
>> > > Concerning the elements of your treatment you mention in your
>> > > mail: The "fluid
>> > > regimen" seems to be handled in a "flexible" way traditionally,
>> > > we suppose that
>> > > most clients already start with the intake of the root bark in a
>> > > certain state
>> > > of hypo-hydration (because they might not drink during the
>> > > preparation that
>> > > last for hours and it's always hot...), and all the candidates we
>> > > watched were
>> > > vomiting a lot. Some healers told us that fluid could stop the
>> > > visions, so they
>> > > prevent the candidates from drinking at least for about (4-)6
>> > > hours until the
>> > > peak of the visions is over. (It’s possible that they give  
>> fluids in
>> >male
>> > > initiation rituals as late as possible but regulary after the  
>> peak of
>> >the
>> > > visions to women, but this experience is surely far from being
>> > > representive.)
>> > > As a life-saving measure, to give iv-fluids seems completely
>> > > logical according
>> > > to our own hypothesis that a rising level of sympathetic
>> > > stimulation (as to
>> > > beexpected in a shock-like state) might endanger the heart.
>> > >
>> > > To be in a dark room with headphones on is really the opposite of
>> > > the continuous
>> > > social interactions and the "collective setting" as Rachel calls
>> > > it - and as
>> > > well as personally, we would prefer to do it the African way,
>> > > it's obvious that
>> > > different cultures are resulting in different needs as to be able
>> > > to be on it's
>> > > own or to profit from the collective support.
>> > >
>> > > Concerning lateral movements, you came to the same sesult as  
>> the African
>> > > healers. Maybe it's interesting that at later stages of the
>> > > ritual, they tell
>> > > the candidate to move and even dance rapidly with "full body
>> > > diadochokinesis",
>> > > thus provoking new visions.
>> > >
>> > > Finally: our aim is not to "scientifically underpin spirituality"
>> > > - but, in a
>> > > society as the one we're living in, it might be difficult to  
>> establish a
>> > > "medical" treatment that often has been critizized in an  
>> ideological way
>> > > without taking that scientific viewpoint. And among those who
>> > > really got the
>> > > chance to travel with Iboga, spirituality is "evidence based" (as
>> > > Fernandez
>> > > calls it in his classical book about the Bwiti) "whilst our
>> > > senses are the way
>> > > they are" (exactly, Nick!) as opposite to something you might
>> > > believe in or
>> > > not.
>> > >
>> > > Best regards to all / Saludos!
>> > >
>> > > Suester & Uwe
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.mindvox.com/pipermail/ibogaine/attachments/20060601/31fa2140/attachment.html>


More information about the Ibogaine mailing list