[Ibogaine] Ibogaine fatality paper

HSLotsof at aol.com HSLotsof at aol.com
Thu Jun 1 18:13:44 EDT 2006


2 mg/kg of atropine may also prove fatal. And what exactly does "knocks out 
mean"?

Howard

In a message dated 6/1/06 5:12:04 PM, jiggy9 at hotmail.co.uk writes:


> Atropine 2mg/kg body weight, knocks out Iboga.
>                                                       P,;)~~~
> 
> 
> >From: "Nick Sandberg" <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk>
> >Reply-To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> >To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine fatality paper
> >Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:33:17 +0100
> >
> >Dear Uwe and Suester,
> >
> >Many thanks for taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply. I very
> >much appreciate what you are doing for iboga. I would like to stick a few
> >ideas/comments in along the way...
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: umaas at scientific-african.org [mailto:umaas at scientific-african.org]
> > > Sent: 28 May 2006 08:03
> > > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > > Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine fatality paper
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Nick, Luke, Sara, Rachel, Ekki, Edward, Howard and Alberto:
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks so lot for sharing all these experiences and different
> > > viewpoints with
> > > us! Of course, we have no answers to all these remaining
> > > questions, but we will
> > > try to do the same:
> > >
> > > First, it's true that also in Africa occasionally patients die,
> > > but it seems to
> > > us that it doesn't happen really often compared to the frequency of
> > > initiations: We only learned to know one healer (among at least
> > > 20 we asked,
> > > some of them chairmen of a traditional healers organization) who
> > > told us that
> > > he really personally heard about two fatal cases that happened to his
> > > colleagues. Unfortunately, he was not able (or didn't want) to
> > > tell us more
> > > details. He stated that what they call a "complete confession" is
> > > the essential
> > > intervention to prevent this and that it might be important to find an
> > > individual dosage of Iboga to lead the patient well, but that
> > > "nobody ever died
> > > because of a high dose" - in contrary, that a low dose even might
> > > be the problem
> > > because deepgoing visions might be blocked.
> > >
> >
> >If the cause of death is put down in Africa as the result of an incomplete
> >confession, then I'd say the implication is that the Bwiti believe that
> >there is a psychological root to it. If someone doesn't want to "own" or
> >admit his or her "errors" in life then I guess there would be an inner
> >struggle as the drug attempts to open the mind up. There will be some
> >"resistance," as they say in therapy. This makes sense to me, though it
> >would seem a fairly major thing to die from simple denial.
> >
> > > We were told about another fatal case that happened at Port
> > > Gentil (a coastal
> > > town grown on oil production, a place with a lot of "bad
> > > spirits"), but nobody
> > > knew the healer involved in this case. The only information was that the
> > > patient, a young man, had a lot of troubles as well within his
> > > family as at
> > > work, that's why he went alone to this place far away from his
> > > home to get the
> > > treatment there.
> > >
> > > It's not easy to talk with the traditional healers about how to prevent
> > > fatalities. Most of them stated that they know herbal "antidots"
> > > that they are
> > > not allowed to tell to Europeans (the "secret" is something
> > > essential there as
> > > in most oral cultures and we are beginning to get an idea about
> > > what it really
> > > means), only one told us what the antidot is. But nobody stated that
> >these
> > > antidots might be life-saving as a "herbal medicine" - it seems
> > > that they might
> > > be used to guide the treatment on one hand, to protect the
> > > patient from the
> > > attack of bad spirits on the other. Several healers were
> > > convinced that once a
> > > patient "starts to die", noone is really able to save him - this
> > > might reflect
> > > lethal arrhythmia in medical terms but remains our Western hypothesis,
> >of
> > > course.
> > >
> >
> >I seem to recall that atropine is sometimes regarded as an ibogaine
> >"antidote." Is this to what you refer?
> >
> > > Just about five or six healers who already knew us well went
> > > deeper in their
> > > explanations. And they all stated more or less the same: Death may occur
> > > because the patient himself is experiencing something within his
> > > vision that is
> > > making it difficult for him or her to continue living (which
> > > means a "SPIRITUAL
> > > SUICIDE" and might correspond to what Nick calls a "fairly high
> > > level of death
> > > wish repressed within") or, on the other hand, the patient might
> > > "see" somthing
> > > that might be dangerous for others and that's why they "kill" him or her
> > > spiritually (which means a "SPIRITUAL MURDER"). Interstingly enough on
> >the
> > > medical field, healers consider situations with a supposingly rising
> > > parasympathetic tone (urination, defecation, sleeping) as
> > > particulary dangerous
> > > - and they never leave anybody alone in these situations.
> > >
> > > So Nick: we think they have an "idea" on the basis of their traditional
> > > social/medical/religious system (which is rather sophisticated
> > > and to us seems
> > > to be at least as consistant as our Western concepts, not to
> > > speak about what
> > > we really think ourselves after what happened to us during these
> > > initiation
> > > ceremonies!) and their practice is build  on this idea - which, of
> >course,
> > > doesn't mean that it "works". - Nevertheless, we agree that specially at
> > > Libreville (and that's what most Western travellers know) there
> > > are a lot of
> > > different "lodges" with more or less synchretistic concepts and a lot of
> > > conflicts between them, a situation which really makes it
> > > difficult to trust
> > > all these young, male, sunglasses-bearing "traditional
> > > healers"... but we think
> > > this reflects merely the social (and material) situation in a
> > > southern capital
> > > than Bwiti spirituality which after our own experience is able to
> > > integrate a
> > > lot of influences without really losing what is "essential" in a village
> > > context.
> > >
> > > Dear Howard: we really appreciate how open-minded and positively
> > > thinking you
> > > are, after all these years of struggle  and the vast experience
> > > you got! Trying
> > > to answer question about the "full body tremors": of course we're
> > > not sure what
> > > the healer you met really was speaking about, but we think this
> > > might have been
> > > what they call a "possession trance" (and seems indeed to be
> > > related to what you
> > > might find in Pentecostal ceremonies, for instance, and in many other
> > > trance-related rituals all over the world). This sort of "trance
> > > state" at the
> > > Mitsogho tribe is induced solely musically (by introducing a
> >contradictory
> > > rhythm) and is used at every woman's initiation before giving the
> > > root bark to
> > > PREVENT death (this is an essential point most possibly originating in
> >the
> > > Mitsogho's original Mabandji-initiation-ritual which has spread
> > > from there to
> > > many other lodges). Are you sure the healer meant that it might
> > > PROVOKE death?
> > > Normally, as far as we know, this sort of trance is not provoked
> > > pharmacologically, but it might happen (as we experienced several
> > > times) to
> > > women before initiation (and outside the ritual context!) while
> > > listening and
> > > moving to traditional music. Interestingly enough, to the
> > > Mitsogho who call
> > > this situation a "crisis" does it mean that the person who was
> > > involved HAS to
> > > be intitiated "to get to know the spirit that is possessing her"
> > > (it is also
> > > possible for men to get initiated into the Mabandji, but that's a
> > > minority and
> > > the ones we know do not behave in a really typical "male" way outside
> >the
> > > ritual; and we never heard that a man could get a "crisis"
> > > outside the ritual

> > > context).
> > >
> >
> >I imagine that a more Western idea of "possession" is that accessing and
> >integrating of repressed aspects of the psyche in therapy. Sometimes
> >they're
> >called "sub-personalities." It's generally reckoned to be a highly healthy
> >thing to do.
> >
> >That's it!
> >
> >Nick
> >
> > > It was surprising to us that Suester, as a woman who grew up not only in
> >a
> > > Western society and with the viewpoint of Western sciences, but also
> >with
> > > Western music, was reacting and performing exactly the same way
> > > as the Mitsogho
> > > did during their intiation, which meant to us that there might be
> > > some cerebral
> > > correlate for this reaction. - As this is really a women's
> > > secret, she is not
> > > allowed to speak about the experience "from inside", but there are
> >obvious
> > > positive consequences for the individual: The Mitsogho state that
> > > an initiated
> > > woman should fall into a "possession trance" at least once a year
> > > "to meet her
> > > spirit" and that seems reasonnable, as Suester herself got into an
> > > extraordinary good mood for at least weeks after every time they
> > > provoked this
> > > reaction...
> > >
> > > Yet another explanation of possibly dangerous "full body tremors"
> > > could be that
> > > the healer was speaking about generalized epileptic seizures: We
> > > personally
> > > know about one case where a young man who got initiated to treat
> > > alcohol-related problems (and who "needed about twice as much Iboga as
> > > normally") was suffering three times within 24 hours from such
> > > seizures, but
> > > that could have been related to the drug-related situation.
> > > Several healers
> > > told us that they never before experienced something like that.
> > >
> > > Dear Edward: thanks so lot for sharing your experiences with us! Most
> > > interestingly to us (of course, without knowing your spiritual
> > > background), you
> > > mention that often dreams and intuitive knowing are leading you
> > > the right way to
> > > treat - we're sure you know that that's exactly what the Mitsogho
> > > say! but what
> > > normally seems a little strange to most Western ears an minds. -
> > > As a medical
> > > doctor, I would like to tell you that strange experience that
> > > every time I went
> > > into the forest with a traditional healer to collect different
> > > barks, they were
> > > astonished that I wasn't able to know the effect of the medicament from
> > > watching, even not from smelling and tasting it! a knowledge that had
> >been
> > > summarized in Europe by the great Paracelsus already some centuries
> >ago...
> > >
> > > Dear Alberto: very interesting that you are working with Ibogaine
> > > in Cancun,
> > > specially as we are going to live and work (with an Austrian development
> > > agency) at Puerto Cabezas (Northern Atlantic coast of Nicaragua) up from
> > > august, so maybe we could get the possibility to see you there one day!
> > >
> > > Concerning the elements of your treatment you mention in your
> > > mail: The "fluid
> > > regimen" seems to be handled in a "flexible" way traditionally,
> > > we suppose that
> > > most clients already start with the intake of the root bark in a
> > > certain state
> > > of hypo-hydration (because they might not drink during the
> > > preparation that
> > > last for hours and it's always hot...), and all the candidates we
> > > watched were
> > > vomiting a lot. Some healers told us that fluid could stop the
> > > visions, so they
> > > prevent the candidates from drinking at least for about (4-)6
> > > hours until the
> > > peak of the visions is over. (It’s possible that they give fluids in
> >male
> > > initiation rituals as late as possible but regulary after the peak of
> >the
> > > visions to women, but this experience is surely far from being
> > > representive.)
> > > As a life-saving measure, to give iv-fluids seems completely
> > > logical according
> > > to our own hypothesis that a rising level of sympathetic
> > > stimulation (as to
> > > beexpected in a shock-like state) might endanger the heart.
> > >
> > > To be in a dark room with headphones on is really the opposite of
> > > the continuous
> > > social interactions and the "collective setting" as Rachel calls
> > > it - and as
> > > well as personally, we would prefer to do it the African way,
> > > it's obvious that
> > > different cultures are resulting in different needs as to be able
> > > to be on it's
> > > own or to profit from the collective support.
> > >
> > > Concerning lateral movements, you came to the same sesult as the African
> > > healers. Maybe it's interesting that at later stages of the
> > > ritual, they tell
> > > the candidate to move and even dance rapidly with "full body
> > > diadochokinesis",
> > > thus provoking new visions.
> > >
> > > Finally: our aim is not to "scientifically underpin spirituality"
> > > - but, in a
> > > society as the one we're living in, it might be difficult to establish a
> > > "medical" treatment that often has been critizized in an ideological way
> > > without taking that scientific viewpoint. And among those who
> > > really got the
> > > chance to travel with Iboga, spirituality is "evidence based" (as
> > > Fernandez
> > > calls it in his classical book about the Bwiti) "whilst our
> > > senses are the way
> > > they are" (exactly, Nick!) as opposite to something you might
> > > believe in or
> > > not.
> > >
> > > Best regards to all / Saludos!
> > >
> > > Suester & Uwe
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
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