[Ibogaine] Ibogaine fatality paper

Paul Brookshaw jiggy9 at hotmail.co.uk
Thu Jun 1 17:11:07 EDT 2006


Atropine 2mg/kg body weight, knocks out Iboga.
                                                      P,;)~~~


>From: "Nick Sandberg" <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk>
>Reply-To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
>Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine fatality paper
>Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:33:17 +0100
>
>Dear Uwe and Suester,
>
>Many thanks for taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply. I very
>much appreciate what you are doing for iboga. I would like to stick a few
>ideas/comments in along the way...
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: umaas at scientific-african.org [mailto:umaas at scientific-african.org]
> > Sent: 28 May 2006 08:03
> > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> > Subject: [Ibogaine] Ibogaine fatality paper
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Nick, Luke, Sara, Rachel, Ekki, Edward, Howard and Alberto:
> >
> >
> > Thanks so lot for sharing all these experiences and different
> > viewpoints with
> > us! Of course, we have no answers to all these remaining
> > questions, but we will
> > try to do the same:
> >
> > First, it's true that also in Africa occasionally patients die,
> > but it seems to
> > us that it doesn't happen really often compared to the frequency of
> > initiations: We only learned to know one healer (among at least
> > 20 we asked,
> > some of them chairmen of a traditional healers organization) who
> > told us that
> > he really personally heard about two fatal cases that happened to his
> > colleagues. Unfortunately, he was not able (or didn't want) to
> > tell us more
> > details. He stated that what they call a "complete confession" is
> > the essential
> > intervention to prevent this and that it might be important to find an
> > individual dosage of Iboga to lead the patient well, but that
> > "nobody ever died
> > because of a high dose" - in contrary, that a low dose even might
> > be the problem
> > because deepgoing visions might be blocked.
> >
>
>If the cause of death is put down in Africa as the result of an incomplete
>confession, then I'd say the implication is that the Bwiti believe that
>there is a psychological root to it. If someone doesn't want to "own" or
>admit his or her "errors" in life then I guess there would be an inner
>struggle as the drug attempts to open the mind up. There will be some
>"resistance," as they say in therapy. This makes sense to me, though it
>would seem a fairly major thing to die from simple denial.
>
> > We were told about another fatal case that happened at Port
> > Gentil (a coastal
> > town grown on oil production, a place with a lot of "bad
> > spirits"), but nobody
> > knew the healer involved in this case. The only information was that the
> > patient, a young man, had a lot of troubles as well within his
> > family as at
> > work, that's why he went alone to this place far away from his
> > home to get the
> > treatment there.
> >
> > It's not easy to talk with the traditional healers about how to prevent
> > fatalities. Most of them stated that they know herbal "antidots"
> > that they are
> > not allowed to tell to Europeans (the "secret" is something
> > essential there as
> > in most oral cultures and we are beginning to get an idea about
> > what it really
> > means), only one told us what the antidot is. But nobody stated that 
>these
> > antidots might be life-saving as a "herbal medicine" - it seems
> > that they might
> > be used to guide the treatment on one hand, to protect the
> > patient from the
> > attack of bad spirits on the other. Several healers were
> > convinced that once a
> > patient "starts to die", noone is really able to save him - this
> > might reflect
> > lethal arrhythmia in medical terms but remains our Western hypothesis, 
>of
> > course.
> >
>
>I seem to recall that atropine is sometimes regarded as an ibogaine
>"antidote." Is this to what you refer?
>
> > Just about five or six healers who already knew us well went
> > deeper in their
> > explanations. And they all stated more or less the same: Death may occur
> > because the patient himself is experiencing something within his
> > vision that is
> > making it difficult for him or her to continue living (which
> > means a "SPIRITUAL
> > SUICIDE" and might correspond to what Nick calls a "fairly high
> > level of death
> > wish repressed within") or, on the other hand, the patient might
> > "see" somthing
> > that might be dangerous for others and that's why they "kill" him or her
> > spiritually (which means a "SPIRITUAL MURDER"). Interstingly enough on 
>the
> > medical field, healers consider situations with a supposingly rising
> > parasympathetic tone (urination, defecation, sleeping) as
> > particulary dangerous
> > - and they never leave anybody alone in these situations.
> >
> > So Nick: we think they have an "idea" on the basis of their traditional
> > social/medical/religious system (which is rather sophisticated
> > and to us seems
> > to be at least as consistant as our Western concepts, not to
> > speak about what
> > we really think ourselves after what happened to us during these
> > initiation
> > ceremonies!) and their practice is build  on this idea - which, of 
>course,
> > doesn't mean that it "works". - Nevertheless, we agree that specially at
> > Libreville (and that's what most Western travellers know) there
> > are a lot of
> > different "lodges" with more or less synchretistic concepts and a lot of
> > conflicts between them, a situation which really makes it
> > difficult to trust
> > all these young, male, sunglasses-bearing "traditional
> > healers"... but we think
> > this reflects merely the social (and material) situation in a
> > southern capital
> > than Bwiti spirituality which after our own experience is able to
> > integrate a
> > lot of influences without really losing what is "essential" in a village
> > context.
> >
> > Dear Howard: we really appreciate how open-minded and positively
> > thinking you
> > are, after all these years of struggle  and the vast experience
> > you got! Trying
> > to answer question about the "full body tremors": of course we're
> > not sure what
> > the healer you met really was speaking about, but we think this
> > might have been
> > what they call a "possession trance" (and seems indeed to be
> > related to what you
> > might find in Pentecostal ceremonies, for instance, and in many other
> > trance-related rituals all over the world). This sort of "trance
> > state" at the
> > Mitsogho tribe is induced solely musically (by introducing a 
>contradictory
> > rhythm) and is used at every woman's initiation before giving the
> > root bark to
> > PREVENT death (this is an essential point most possibly originating in 
>the
> > Mitsogho's original Mabandji-initiation-ritual which has spread
> > from there to
> > many other lodges). Are you sure the healer meant that it might
> > PROVOKE death?
> > Normally, as far as we know, this sort of trance is not provoked
> > pharmacologically, but it might happen (as we experienced several
> > times) to
> > women before initiation (and outside the ritual context!) while
> > listening and
> > moving to traditional music. Interestingly enough, to the
> > Mitsogho who call
> > this situation a "crisis" does it mean that the person who was
> > involved HAS to
> > be intitiated "to get to know the spirit that is possessing her"
> > (it is also
> > possible for men to get initiated into the Mabandji, but that's a
> > minority and
> > the ones we know do not behave in a really typical "male" way outside 
>the
> > ritual; and we never heard that a man could get a "crisis"
> > outside the ritual
> > context).
> >
>
>I imagine that a more Western idea of "possession" is that accessing and
>integrating of repressed aspects of the psyche in therapy. Sometimes 
>they're
>called "sub-personalities." It's generally reckoned to be a highly healthy
>thing to do.
>
>That's it!
>
>Nick
>
> > It was surprising to us that Suester, as a woman who grew up not only in 
>a
> > Western society and with the viewpoint of Western sciences, but also 
>with
> > Western music, was reacting and performing exactly the same way
> > as the Mitsogho
> > did during their intiation, which meant to us that there might be
> > some cerebral
> > correlate for this reaction. - As this is really a women's
> > secret, she is not
> > allowed to speak about the experience "from inside", but there are 
>obvious
> > positive consequences for the individual: The Mitsogho state that
> > an initiated
> > woman should fall into a "possession trance" at least once a year
> > "to meet her
> > spirit" and that seems reasonnable, as Suester herself got into an
> > extraordinary good mood for at least weeks after every time they
> > provoked this
> > reaction...
> >
> > Yet another explanation of possibly dangerous "full body tremors"
> > could be that
> > the healer was speaking about generalized epileptic seizures: We
> > personally
> > know about one case where a young man who got initiated to treat
> > alcohol-related problems (and who "needed about twice as much Iboga as
> > normally") was suffering three times within 24 hours from such
> > seizures, but
> > that could have been related to the drug-related situation.
> > Several healers
> > told us that they never before experienced something like that.
> >
> > Dear Edward: thanks so lot for sharing your experiences with us! Most
> > interestingly to us (of course, without knowing your spiritual
> > background), you
> > mention that often dreams and intuitive knowing are leading you
> > the right way to
> > treat - we're sure you know that that's exactly what the Mitsogho
> > say! but what
> > normally seems a little strange to most Western ears an minds. -
> > As a medical
> > doctor, I would like to tell you that strange experience that
> > every time I went
> > into the forest with a traditional healer to collect different
> > barks, they were
> > astonished that I wasn't able to know the effect of the medicament from
> > watching, even not from smelling and tasting it! a knowledge that had 
>been
> > summarized in Europe by the great Paracelsus already some centuries 
>ago...
> >
> > Dear Alberto: very interesting that you are working with Ibogaine
> > in Cancun,
> > specially as we are going to live and work (with an Austrian development
> > agency) at Puerto Cabezas (Northern Atlantic coast of Nicaragua) up from
> > august, so maybe we could get the possibility to see you there one day!
> >
> > Concerning the elements of your treatment you mention in your
> > mail: The "fluid
> > regimen" seems to be handled in a "flexible" way traditionally,
> > we suppose that
> > most clients already start with the intake of the root bark in a
> > certain state
> > of hypo-hydration (because they might not drink during the
> > preparation that
> > last for hours and it's always hot...), and all the candidates we
> > watched were
> > vomiting a lot. Some healers told us that fluid could stop the
> > visions, so they
> > prevent the candidates from drinking at least for about (4-)6
> > hours until the
> > peak of the visions is over. (It’s possible that they give fluids in 
>male
> > initiation rituals as late as possible but regulary after the peak of 
>the
> > visions to women, but this experience is surely far from being
> > representive.)
> > As a life-saving measure, to give iv-fluids seems completely
> > logical according
> > to our own hypothesis that a rising level of sympathetic
> > stimulation (as to
> > beexpected in a shock-like state) might endanger the heart.
> >
> > To be in a dark room with headphones on is really the opposite of
> > the continuous
> > social interactions and the "collective setting" as Rachel calls
> > it - and as
> > well as personally, we would prefer to do it the African way,
> > it's obvious that
> > different cultures are resulting in different needs as to be able
> > to be on it's
> > own or to profit from the collective support.
> >
> > Concerning lateral movements, you came to the same sesult as the African
> > healers. Maybe it's interesting that at later stages of the
> > ritual, they tell
> > the candidate to move and even dance rapidly with "full body
> > diadochokinesis",
> > thus provoking new visions.
> >
> > Finally: our aim is not to "scientifically underpin spirituality"
> > - but, in a
> > society as the one we're living in, it might be difficult to establish a
> > "medical" treatment that often has been critizized in an ideological way
> > without taking that scientific viewpoint. And among those who
> > really got the
> > chance to travel with Iboga, spirituality is "evidence based" (as
> > Fernandez
> > calls it in his classical book about the Bwiti) "whilst our
> > senses are the way
> > they are" (exactly, Nick!) as opposite to something you might
> > believe in or
> > not.
> >
> > Best regards to all / Saludos!
> >
> > Suester & Uwe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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