[Ibogaine] Homeopathic Healing

Nick Sandberg nick227 at tiscali.co.uk
Fri Oct 7 06:08:50 EDT 2005


Hi Luke,

Yes, knowledge, or belief, keeps fear at bay. If I can place a weird
experience inside a belief system or philosophy then it's like - OK, I
understand now! But then, of course, at a certain level, the belief system
becomes a bit of an addiction, or can do for some people.

Nick
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Luke Christoffersen [mailto:luke.christoffersen at gmail.com]
  Sent: 06 October 2005 18:25
  To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
  Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Homeopathic Healing


  Perhaps you're right, I don't really know if it slows the movement down.
I just thought of having a framework outside the experience to acknowledge
what type of things may unravel and what possible mechanisms of release may
take place.  I think this should be left behind in the actual experience.
The experiences, especially with psychedelics can be very frightening
sometimes  and I thought that some knowledge of the processes that might
take place are natural processes of the body.  I think it would help the
person allow them to take place without freaking out.  Then again maybe it
might slow the movement as you say.

  Luke


  On 10/6/05, Nick Sandberg <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
    Well, I agree, though I'd say this very labelling process of the mind
can very much slow down the movement through the "issue", whatever it may
be. I mean, ideally, you just uncontrollably spasm for a bit and they
realize Wow, I'm totally free! Rarely happens like this in practise, sadly!
Such is the great game of existence.

    Nick
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Luke Christoffersen [mailto: luke.christoffersen at gmail.com]
      Sent: 04 October 2005 22:01
      To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
      Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Homeopathic Healing


      Hi Nick,
                I agree with you when you say it just gives you an emotional
experience and don't have to label it birth.  This can be said of ibogaine
also, you'll experience whatever you experience whether it be past life or
birth or whatever.  I do like the idea of establishing a framework around
these experiences to establish various areas that arise and what ways,
symbolic or otherwise the mind uses to experience them.  I think it helps to
establish some framework what these experiences can bring up and why?  We
have to call it something and limitied as it may be in comunication of these
experiences language is what we have.


      Luke


      On 10/4/05, Nick Sandberg <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk > wrote:
        Pranayama, if I remember, is use of breath in meditation. I think,
classically, it's one of the eight limbs of yoga, see Patanjali, etc.

        Yes, to be fair, I also find Grof's work is pretty original, it's
just that this whole process of labelling what is simple random emotional
energy is fraught with problems. Basically, in holotropic breathwork you
pump your breath up for a while and then coast, usually supported, for a
period of hours to loud emotive music. Feelings come up, both emotionally
and bodily sensations. It's good but you don't actually have to frame this
whole experience as "reliving birth trauma." That bit is just the mind.
People doing pranayama have been familiar doing this stuff for aeons. They
just did it and it felt good afterwards. In the 60s and 70s, guys like Orr
and Grof came along and said "actually this is all to do with birth trauma".
They created this whole map around it. Do you get what I'm saying? The
breathwork just gives you an emotional experience, you don't need to label
it anything. You don't need to frame it.

        Nick
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Luke Christoffersen [mailto: luke.christoffersen at gmail.com]
          Sent: 04 October 2005 19:29
          To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
          Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Homeopathic Healing


          Hi Nick
                What is pranayama?

               I would have thought Grofs work on perinatal states was quite
new at the time?  I know primal therapy encompassed this area at some stage
around the 60's /70's too.  Although Arthur Janov supposedly didn't believe
this possible until later on.  Are you saying there have been people
reliving their birth trauma before all this?  I suppose people using eboga
and other psychedelics in other cultures must have being experiencing some
similar states but has there been any clinical framework to eslablish what
is actually taking place?

          Luke



          On 10/4/05, Nick Sandberg < nick227 at tiscali.co.uk > wrote:

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Lee Albert [mailto: myeboga at yahoo.co.uk]
              Sent: 04 October 2005 13:23
              To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
              Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] Homeopathic Healing


              Hi Lee,

              Basically, I agree with what you say but I find the argument a
bit convoluted and Stan Grof's quote also not so good. Yes, I think it is a
"soul choice" to take ibogaine. That's certainly been how I feel about it
when I look back at the experience. And yes, one could say it was someone's
"soul choice" to die, or have an acutely bad experience, but (i) this has no
legal validity in court, and (ii) personally, I think people do have a right
to know about the risks that they face simply as a person, not as some
"immortal soul" or something.

              Hi Nick,

              I agree a person has the right to know the risks they face as
a person. To that end as complete a picture as possible needs to be
presented pointing out for one thing that ones mental health can deteriorate
during the healing process.

              Hi Lee,

              Well, that's pretty strong a statement though maybe I could go
for it. I know one guy who, last time I spoke to him, still believed that
ibogaine fucked his mind up, but, this aside, complaints are relatively few
and far between. I mean, it's good that people are aware that healing can be
quite a journey and a pretty rocky one at times. Personally, I'd say my
mental health deteriorated a bit after doing ibogaine, probably verifiable
with dsm4 or whatever. I didn't really get to psychosis but for sure a lot
of issues were brought to the surface and a lot of change happened. I was
lucky in that synergistically I made all the connections with others I
needed to get guided through it. I think a lot of others are the same but,
for one or two, somewhere the connections bit doesn't quite manifest.


                Personally I see eboga/ibogaine as a spiritual/healing quest
for those who are switched on. If you are not switched on what are you doing
taking ibogaine? Isn't there a saying that we are only given what we can
cope with? Having said that I find it incongruent with the spirit of eboga
(which is not a malicious spirit) that a person can innocently take ibogaine
and then have their lives turned upside down without any idea of what is
going on or why. It's a partnership. I myself have cursed the healing
process in my frustration but have always returned to the point of feeling
deeply blessed.

              As to Stan's quote, I find it pretty chaotic. The bit in []'s
implies that one can determine ultimately the "source" of a complaint,
whether it be pathalogical or psychological. I very much doubt this is
possible and to try and claim that it is, anyway, is just as dualistic an
interpretation of things as the traditional medicine he claims needs
revising.

              The part in brackets I found a little less interesting - hence
the brackets. I am not sure I really understand what he is trying to say
there. For me what is interesting in this extract is the recognition that
symptoms can intensify where one might be expecting a reduction. Basically,
until a trauma has been emasculated of its emotional content it will
continue to be a source of distress in the individual imo (causing distorted
thinking). This I see as being possible via ibogaine due to repeated
exposure (intention and cooperation) to the trauma allowing the energy of
trauma to be faced and released and most importantly a learning of lessons.
This learning of lessons is perhaps underestimated but with ibogaine its an
important aspect of the healing imo.

              Secondly, if homeopathy sees symptoms as simply an expression
of healing, what, then, actually is the complaint? None presumably. Thus the
whole paradigm of problem and treatment can be scrapped and all medicine
people, be they doctors or healers, be forgotten.

              One can remain fixated in the symptoms and that is a problem
in itself. (In my experience the healing work is to shift the symptoms on
towards completion and this is very possible using eboga as a tool.) But the
symptoms exist because of the underlying trauma and so trying to fix the
symptoms by proving that they are unfounded in reality does not fix the
problem which only finds another avenue of expression.

              Homeopathy consists in treating like with like, as I recall,
and yes sometimes things get worse before they get better. But healing
itself is a completely not understood thing - it's a reversal of
thermodynamic laws and scientists and healers alike don't understand it. Who
can really state laws about healing? As to suppression, sometimes it's the
best thing to do. When you can't deal with a problem effectively in the
moment, suppression is a pretty good option.

              Agreed and quite wise. But if your goal is healing in these
moments then suppression is hardly the way to go about it.

              Also, while I'm at it, he doesn't state how he'd replace
"Western psychiatry's" way of defining mental health. Absence of symptoms is
pretty good, if a little dry.

              Agreed.

              What he writes about moving towards working with symptomology
I totally agree with personally though.

              I do find it a bit of a worrying trend in new-agers like Stan
(rather an old new-ager) that they proceed to merrily deconstruct
established thought, which is cool, but then recreate it all again just to
push their own favoured treatment methodologies. They wanna have it both
ways. It's a little bit a con really, not that people haven't enjoyed better
lives through Stan's work, which, like Leonard Orr's, is really just
rehashed pranayama.

              That's interesting. Man has been around a while and I have no
doubt that rebirthing in another form has probably been used before. I guess
Grof is simply extending his LSD work by creating a trademark name using
legal alternatives.

              Leonard Orr did rebirthing and Stan Grof holotropic breatwork
(TM!). I mean both are rehashed pranayama really, with a lot of extra
conceptual stuff thrown in.


              How is he recreating established thought or am I missing
something?

              Well, he starts to tear down the problem/solution paradigm but
then rather recreates it with his own way of dealing with "problems."
Holotropic breathwork, Stan's baby, deals a lot with birth and pre-birth
trauma. I mean it's actually just breathing in a certain way, but he creates
this whole "perinatal states" drama around this to frame it. It's great but
then you've also got to take on board HIS whole way of identifying problems.
It's letting go of the GP/doctor in white coat thing, but then falling into
the arms of the new age guru. Perhaps a lesser devil, I guess.

              Nick

              Lee

              Nick


              Luke Christoffersen <luke.christoffersen at gmail.com> wrote:

                Hi Lee, Nick,
                                 I was reading a book by Stan Grof on his
LSD research and from what I gather it is similar to primal therapy,
ibogaine, rebirthing... at least in the sense that it involves getting to
the root of the symptoms by returning to resolve various trauma at different
stages of life.  As regards other spiritual states that's another area
altogether.  I think symptoms can definitly get worse at times, my alergies
became much worse after ibogaine.

                   I think any kind of regression work involves lifting
supression and this is much more so when psychadelics are used.  I'm sure I
started having strange symtoms when I took lsd recreationally years back
without having any knowlege of what was this was.  I know a couple of people
who I think suffered adverse effects from this.  I know one guy who took
acid twice and is now on 10 pills a day to supress his rage. It's sad but
how do you heal people?  What are the solutions?  There are so many sick
people out there who are not given any option but to drug there problems
away.

                Luke


                On 10/3/05, Nick Sandberg <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk > wrote:

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Lee Albert [mailto: myeboga at yahoo.co.uk]
                    Sent: 03 October 2005 18:41
                    To: Ibogaine List
                    Subject: [Ibogaine] Homeopathic Healing


                    Grof's View on Healing


                    From:
http://www.healthy.net/scr/interview.asp?PageType=Interview&ID=290



                    The attitude of Western psychiatry that sees mental
health as simply the absence of symptoms certainly has to be radically
revised. In the new understanding, emotional and psychosomatic symptoms are
seen as expressions of the healing process of the organism, not as
manifestations of disease. [Obviously this applies only to "functional" or
psychologically determined disorders and not to clearly organic conditions,
such as tumors, infections, or hardening of the arteries of the brain. Nor
would it apply in certain states which are clearly manifestations of mental
disease, such as severe paranoid conditions.] This new understanding can be
described as "homeopathic". In the alternative system of medicine known as
homeopathy, the symptoms are then seen as expressions of healing, not the
disease. Therapy in homeopathy consists of a temporary intensification of
the symptoms to achieve wholeness. This approach results in profound healing
and positive personality transformation rather than the impoverishment of
vitality and functioning that accompanies pharmacological suppression of
symptoms. The emphasis on constructive working with symptoms instead of
their routine suppression is the first major difference between the
strategies based on modern consciousness research and those used in
mainstream psychiatry.



                    Lee – There are those who will consider that eboga has
made life worse for them. This I would see as a stage in the healing
process. Anyone seriously thinking of healing via eboga needs to be switched
on to the high cost involved or perhaps stay away altogether. In any case i
don't imagine the eboga experience leaving a person in a state of distress
greater than before unless that state were beneficial at the deepest and
most important level in the long run for that person, i.e., at a soul level
the person has agreed to it and welcomes it.




                    Hi Lee,

                    Basically, I agree with what you say but I find the
argument a bit convoluted and Stan Grof's quote also not so good. Yes, I
think it is a "soul choice" to take ibogaine. That's certainly been how I
feel about it when I look back at the experience. And yes, one could say it
was someone's "soul choice" to die, or have an acutely bad experience, but
(i) this has no legal validity in court, and (ii) personally, I think people
do have a right to know about the risks that they face simply as a person,
not as some "immortal soul" or something.

                    As to Stan's quote, I find it pretty chaotic. The bit in
[]'s implies that one can determine ultimately the "source" of a complaint,
whether it be pathalogical or psychological. I very much doubt this is
possible and to try and claim that it is, anyway, is just as dualistic an
interpretation of things as the traditional medicine he claims needs
revising. Secondly, if homeopathy sees symptoms as simply an expression of
healing, what, then, actually is the complaint? None presumably. Thus the
whole paradigm of problem and treatment can be scrapped and all medicine
people, be they doctors or healers, be forgotten. Homeopathy consists in
treating like with like, as I recall, and yes sometimes things get worse
before they get better. But healing itself is a completely not understood
thing - it's a reversal of thermodynamic laws and scientists and healers
alike don't understand it. Who can really state laws about healing? As to
suppression, sometimes it's the best thing to do. When you can't deal with a
problem effectively in the moment, suppression is a pretty good option.
Also, while I'm at it, he doesn't state how he'd replace "Western
psychiatry's" way of defining mental health. Absence of symptoms is pretty
good, if a little dry. What he writes about moving towards working with
symptomology I totally agree with personally though.

                    I do find it a bit of a worrying trend in new-agers like
Stan (rather an old new-ager) that they proceed to merrily deconstruct
established thought, which is cool, but then recreate it all again just to
push their own favoured treatment methodologies. They wanna have it both
ways. It's a little bit a con really, not that people haven't enjoyed better
lives through Stan's work, which, like Leonard Orr's, is really just
rehashed pranayama.

                    Nick





              Amazing Grace: A true story based on the use of eboga /
ibogaine over a six year period. Includes section on the Eboga Healing
Process: www.myeboga.com/amazinggrace.html.
              My Eboga: A website dedicated to practical guidance and
spiritual interpretation of the eboga experience. Includes a mailing list
for those already initiated: www.myeboga.com/network.html.





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