[Ibogaine] crystal meth query

Ron Davis rwd3 at cox.net
Sat Mar 12 21:37:28 EST 2005

for some reason i never could use just one of anything, so the problem is me 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jon" <jfreed1 at umbc.edu>
To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] crystal meth query

>> The primary point I want to make is that demonizing a chemical probably
>> helps no-one. (It might help the internal psychological dynamic of a
>> family
>> trying to cope with addiction, to demonize the chemical rather than
>> blaming
>> the individual, but that's another topic.)
> oh, i certainly agree with that; and i didn't mean to sound as if i was
> demonising meth. however, some drugs present the user with more risks than
> others, and meth is one of the riskier drugs out there. while demonising a
> drug doesn't help anyone, neither does down-playing its dangers.
>> There have been tens of millions of meth users in the past fifty years,
>> and
>> most do not experience 'demonic' effects from the drug. So, if you start
>> out
>> by insisting that the drug is this monstrous thing, most users are going
>> to
>> know you are full of shit.
> again, i didn't mean to make meth out as a "monstrous thing", but it can
> definately be a dangerous thing. as i said in my original post, the
> majority of meth users won't experience psychosis; but it is a real risk
> of meth use that can be profoundly problematic for people who do
> experience it.
> and while the percentage of meth users who experience psychosis is a
> minority, it is well documented that chronic meth use can cause
> debilitating neurocognitive deficits (such as memory loss and attentional
> problems) in many chronic users.
> i'm all for people making their own choices as to what they put in their
> bodies, but i also believe people should be able to make informed choices;
> they should be aware of what could conceivably happen if they choose to
> use a given drug. as i said in my presentation at the conference recently,
> it's very unfortunate that the government uses scare tacticts to try to
> persuade people from taking drugs, because when a drug does really have
> some scary effects, like meth, people tend not to believe it.
>> How do you know this? How certain are you that this is real information,
>> and
>> not just more drug propaganda?
>> What you are saying may be true- but... When I studied the question, 
>> which
>> was some years ago, this was just a theory, supported only by extreme
>> dosage
>> studies on rat and monkey brains. The clinical evidence, that is, 
>> evidence
>> collected from physicians who were overseeing cases so extreme they ended
>> up
>> in the hospital, placed primary evidence on sleep deprivation. When
>> patients
>> got recuperative sleep, symptoms stopped, and the reports were that high
>> doses didn't cause delerium unless the sleep deprivation was also
>> occuring.
>> My sources for this info were from links gathered from alt.drugs posting,
>> and are some number of years old. Maybe there have been more 
>> authoritative
>> studies confirming the dopamine theory you mention, but if so I don't 
>> know
>> of them.
> a quick search on pubmed for "methamphetamine psychosis" turned up 185
> references. for example, here's two neuroimaging studies:
> Iyo M, Sekine Y, Mori N. (2004). Neuromechanism of developing
> methamphetamine psychosis: a neuroimaging study. Ann N Y Acad Sci, 288-95.
> The long-term use of methamphetamine (MAP) induces a psychotic state,
> called MAP psychosis. To understand the neuromechanisms of the persistent
> psychosis, we used SPECT, MR spectroscopy (MRS), and PET on the MAP users.
> The SPECT study showed a high incidence of multiple patchy deficits in
> cerebral blood flow among the users. The MRS study MAP users showed a
> significantly reduced ratio of creatine plus phosphocreatine (Cr +
> PCr)/choline-containing compounds (Cho) in the brain compared with the
> healthy control subjects. In addition, the reduction in the ratio of Cr +
> PCr/Cho was significantly correlated with the duration of MAP use and with
> the severity of residual psychiatric symptoms. PET revealed no significant
> differences between the ex-users of MAP and the healthy controls in the
> density of striatal dopamine D2 receptors. On the other hand, the density
> of dopamine transporter in the nucleus accumbens and caudate/putamen in
> the MAP users was significantly less compared with the controls. This
> reduction was significantly correlated with the length of use and severity
> of psychotic symptoms. These findings suggest that long-term use of MAP
> causes abnormal cerebral blood flow patterns, reduction of brain dopamine
> transporter density, and metabolite alteration, which may be closely
> related to a susceptibility to MAP psychosis.
> Sekine Y, Minabe Y, Ouchi Y, Takei N, Iyo M, Nakamura K, Suzuki K, Tsukada
> H, Okada H, Yoshikawa E, Futatsubashi M, Mori N. (2003). Association of
> dopamine transporter loss in the orbitofrontal and dorsolateral prefrontal
> cortices with methamphetamine-related psychiatric symptoms. Am J
> Psychiatry, 160, 1699-701.
> The authors examined dopamine transporter density in the orbitofrontal
> cortex, dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, and amygdala in methamphetamine
> users and assessed the relationship of these measures to the subjects'
> clinical characteristics. METHOD: Positron emission tomography with
> [(11)C]WIN 35,428 was used to examine the regions of interest in 11
> methamphetamine users and nine healthy comparison subjects. Psychiatric
> symptoms were evaluated with the Brief Psychiatric Rating Scale. RESULTS:
> Dopamine transporter density in the three regions studied was
> significantly lower in the methamphetamine users than in the comparison
> subjects. The lower dopamine transporter density in the orbitofrontal and
> dorsolateral prefrontal cortex was significantly correlated with the
> duration of methamphetamine use and the severity of psychiatric symptoms.
> CONCLUSIONS: Chronic methamphetamine use may cause dopamine transporter
> reduction in the orbitofrontal cortex, dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, and
> amygdala in the brain. Psychiatric symptoms in methamphetamine users may
> be attributable to the decrease in dopamine transporter density in the
> orbitofrontal cortex and the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.
>> I do know that I never experienced such hallucinations, and never saw
>> others
>> display anything more than fairly mild delerium, usually after drinking
>> heavily with much sleep deprivation.
> I'm happy to hear that you didn't suffer from some of meth's more severe
> effects, but many meth users are not so lucky.
>> These other stories of paranoid hallucinations are terrible stories, but
>> (1)
>> there may be much information left out about other drugs and alcohol, and
>> perhaps native schizophrenia, and (2) I don't see how these stories are
>> useful as far as dealing with most peoples use of the chemical is
>> concerned.
> Researchers have been studying meth's effects for decades now, and while
> it is possible that they have missed some confounding variables that could
> contribute to things like psychosis, it's pretty unlikely. Schizophrenia
> is pretty easy to spot, and besides that, methamphetamine psychosis
> differs from schizophrenic psychosis in a number of fundamental ways. It's
> also unlikely that other drugs are responsible; stimulant-related
> psychosis is pretty distinct from the psychosis that can result from
> psychedelics or dissociative anaesthetics.
> Frankly, I don't understand how you could perceive such information as
> useless. People should be aware of the risks they are taking when they
> choose to ingest a given substance. Heroin users should be aware that
> there is a very real risk of death by respiratory depression if they take
> too much, even though the majority of heroin users don't die. Likewise,
> methapmhetamine users should be aware of the possibility of experiencing
> hallucinations and delusions, and probably more importantly, that they
> could end up causing themselves signficant brain damage, even if there's a
> substantial number of meth users who don't suffer these effects.
> To use an analogy.. most people who ride in automobiles don't end up dying
> in car crashes, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to go riding around
> without a seat belt.
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