Capt Kirk captkirk at free.net.nz
Tue Jun 7 17:17:04 EDT 2005

What does Mandy do with her time? I know from past detoxes and staying clean
that I had no direction, hobby, job etc to keep me occupied so inevitably
the ole cravings monster would return because I was doing nothing and I
guess, was bored!  Being used to using drugs for motivation, it's too easy
to go back to them.
Just a thought...from the crusty recesses of my brain lol.

-----Original Message-----
From: Boris [mailto:bleshins at bigpond.net.au] 
Sent: Wednesday, 8 June 2005 1:52 a.m.
To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] coupla questions

Hey tink,

Thanks for the advise! 

You're right about the counseling. Mandy is seeing a counselor herself
and only once a week, but it would be difficult for me to join her, as I
work full time, and the hours the counselor is available clash with my
work hours. I'll have to have a bit of a think about that and see what
we can do.. maybe see someone else or I could try get some time of work.
You're right, it may be time for me to get some feedback on my handling
of the situation.
And from what you said, makes me think once a week is not really

The only using once a month thing is a tricky one.. The experience has
been that once Mandy hits that wall of cravings they just peak and it is
pretty constant, to the point of loss of control. We tried the zero use
approach, but in the end it wasn't working (and my questions are about
how to make it work), so the decision was to make use less and less
frequent just for a few months - 2 months, then 2 and half, 3 and then
stop completely. If she used she had to talk to me about it first and
hold out as long as she could - without me monitoring it she would have
quickly spun out of control - she's done plenty of time on the "I'll
just do it occasionally" relapse merry-go-round. She only made it over 2
months once. After every slip up there is always the immediate promise
that it won't happen again, at least for a long time, but when it became
evident that was not going to work we had to be a bit flexible a bit
longer, so Mandy can get her head and her life in order, and be able to
deal with the cravings better. And she has been getting better. Before,
once the cravings started, that was it, they did not go away, just keep
intensifying and staying intense. Now she can get through them a bit,
and they are not as constant, coming and going, intensifying and easing
up just a bit. Still, it's been a slow improvement and still extremely
hard for her, so she is pretty keen to try Ibogaine. 
We are at a stage again now, when Mandy has said no more slip-ups again
and is trying her best. Has been battling through the cravings so far.
She is trying with everything she's got, I know that for sure. 

There is not much to say about me that's really relevant to the list, I
think. I have not been addicted to any substance besides nicotine, never
used opiates, never anything IV, but have tried most other drugs,
recreationally. Used to like psychedelics, not sure if Ibogaine would be
for me though. I am doing my best to help my girlfriend get through
this. We got together when she was off the H for a couple of months and
things got more serious towards the end of last year.. it was always a
condition of the relationship that she would stay clean, but I've had to
be a little flexible about it last few months, because I decided she is
was worth it to me. So we're battling on together, making slow progress.

Thanks a lot for your feedback, anyways! I've found it helpful, and I
think Mandy has too.. come to think of it, you're the first person who's
had experience with heroin addiction I've really bounced off details of
the situation with. Mandy sometimes talks to some of her friends who've
been through it for some support, but I've been going through it in a
bit of a vacuum, I guess because I am more of a do it yourself kind of
person, not used to asking for help - not last few years anyway.

I was surprised no one else had anything to reply to my questions..
Noone else had any experience that qualifies you to answer any of my
questions or are people too preoccupied with argueing about Dr Mash (who
sounds pretty cool to me, btw)? If anyone missed it, I was basically
asking what techniques people use to fight the cravings and what your
opinion/experience is with using benzos to fight them off. I guess from
what I've read so far and been told the answer to my question re
Ibogaine is that it would help, but still not sure if to go for a full
dose or smaller doses, as Mandy has not been physically addicted for
over year..
I did get one private reply, thanks for that one too!

Here's a few words from Mandy:
Hi there Tink, Boris showed the email you wrote to him, your reply was
appreciated, well written and very helpful. I've begun to try your
picturing  technique, both of us thought it was totally charming, I'll
let you know how I find it. My cravings come and go, though sometimes
they have me in tears. It's so hard sometimes there's a place in me that
wants to give up, it seems impossible to never have that again, I can't
put myself to sleep because there is people who care {sacred) it would
solve nothing and who knows what's just around the corner. As well as
being wrong.I have decided not to use once a month or whatever, as it
causes Boris pain, and is unfair as you know he is doing all he can to
get me past this and be healed. It is an awesome blessing in my life
now, his strength and patience, support and love have saved my life,
surely true. It's sure slow going, as you know, but you get what you
wish, true, and it is great to be moving back to a place to grow, to
have potential. I'd like to hear more about you if you'd like, most of
my using was off my own bat so I know few others that understand, I
believe in you, and that you have faith I can be free gives me heart.
Thank you Tink, may peace go in your heart, now and always. Blessed be.

Boris and Mandy

> Welcome Home!
> You're in the right spot.  All I can do is share my personal
> experience, and hope that it helps, in whatever way.  I've just
> finally convinced the eyes to open, and am in the process of
> caffeinating, so forgive me if this is a bit disjointed!
> The average craving lasts physically for roughly 20 minutes, I've been
> told.  I've used it as a guideline, occasionally counting off the
> seconds until the full twenty minutes was over, using it as a way to
> convince myself that if i got through those first 20 minutes, I could
> then get through the next  20.  The seconds may pass like individual
> years, but if you can put a bunch of 20 minute segments together, you
> end up with a day, then 2.  Meditation helps a bit, if you work at it.
>  There's one that I was given for panic attacks and the like, and it's
> a flexible meditation excersise, in that you use visually what ever is
> in front of you to start.  When driving with my Mom the other day( you
> need meditation and benzos to get through a quick jaunt to the store
> with her-she's a frightening driver :])I tried it out, and found that
> it distracted me away from the immediate freak out. So here's what you
> can do.  I chose a bird I saw sitting on a telephone pole, and in my
> mind went through where the bird was and what the scene around him
> was.  Example, (mumbling under my breath while Mom looked sideways at
> me with growing concern) The sun is shining on the bird, and on the
> bird is a feather, and on the feather is a mite, and on the mite there
> is an eye that looks back up in the sky and sees the sun.  Then there
> was a rock that lay on the side of the road, and had a bit of moss, in
> which lived a flea, who had a leg that stood on the lichen, and stared
> back up at the sun.  It worked in that it interrupted my thought
> process by forcing me to go into detail about something around me, and
> allowed me to seperate the immediate anxiety out for a minute.  It
> doesn't always work, but it's a good distraction tool, and it can get
> silly depending on the flora and fauna in your neck of the woods.  The
> sun shines down on the platypus that sits on a rock in the water,
> where there is a fish with a digereedoo(sp?) who plays for the koala
> that sleeps in the tree above the fish and the platypus?  Try it out,
> it may help...at the worse, you'll end up giggling :]
> I'd like to suggest some sort of counselling for both of you.  Without
> my group therapy and my individual sessions, I would ber a complete
> basket case!  I mean, I still am a basket case, but a much more highly
> functioning one.  I think that this should be right on top of your
> list of things to do, especially if there's anyone having suicidal
> thoughts.  Having a support system in place for both of you is
> imperative, and seeing a counselor of some sort together might help
> you through some of the stress that addiction and other things put on
> your relationship.
> I saw red flags all over the place when you said that you had agreed
> to let her use once a month, only speed?  There is no only once a
> month, for me anyway.  Stopping your drug use has to be a decision
> made by the person that's trying to stop, in my experience.  Until I
> came to the point where I was literally willing to do absolutely
> anything to get and stay clean, I was relapsing over and over, and
> though the time in between relapses grew after a while, it only takes
> once to die.  There's a saying that I've heard repeated to me over and
> over, and it makes sense: You have to go afteer your recovery with all
> of the vigor and enthusiasm of getting high. I've had an incredible
> time of it, figuring this one out, and am by far from there, but
> getting closer.  She has to want to stop and be willing to do anything
> it takes.  It's that simple and that complicated.  Again, this is just
> from my own experiences, but untill I said that I was willing to do
> what ever it took to stay clean, and then actually DID what I was
> saying I was willing to do, I went through that miserable cycle of
> using, a little here and there, then stopping, mild withdrawal,
> climbing walls, clean time for a blurb, then right back to it.  I
> don't believe, for me, any way, that it's possible to just use once a
> month.  I've never had that work out, and I tried a million times.  I
> had to remove myself completely from the scene before I got anywhere,
> and still have to avoid certain people and places. Some times, a
> snippet of a song, or a smell, little things, will bring me right back
> into the heart of it in my mind, but I've learned how to deal with it
> much more successfully thanks to some wonderful therapists.
> Benzo's have a rotten withdrawal to them as well.  Is that part of the
> problem, maybe?
> In brief wrap up ( I had two flat tires yesterday and have to go get
> them taken care of-ugh!), I want to stress the importance of having an
> outside support system for the both of you!! having a place or a
> group, or an individual counselor to down load to , as well as getting
> feedback, has been the key to my staying clean.  I go a minimum of
> once a week, but when I started out, I went to group counseling 3
> times a week, and individual sessions twice weekly.  NA has helped to
> a certain extent, but that's a personal issue on my part :]  You can
> get an awful lot of info and help from this list, and am glad to see
> you made it here!  When I first signed up, I was detoxing off of my
> bupe, and having this list helped me through some excedingly rough
> patches, and in all sorts of ways.
> It would be lovely to hear from Amanda herself, and a bit about you as
> well, Boris.  I've found that having a voice speak for me ineveitably
> ends up with some sort of malfunction, and by making myself face my
> issues by speaking up, or typing out, has helped immeasurably.
> You can only change yourself, and be there to help another when they
> need it, but it has to come from you personally(or it did for me).
> Please keep moving forward! You've got a lot of good people here who
> will help out, if only to listen and respond, as well as point you in
> a direction that might be helpful.  It always comes back down to what
> you find you're willing to do for yourself, though.
> Welcome home!
> love
> tink
> =[\
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