[Ibogaine] AA and Gurus

The Garden GardenRestaurant at comcast.net
Sun Jan 30 13:58:37 EST 2005


Hi Sandy !!
           In the true spirit of AA and NA, I have to bring my 2 cents :-)

You wrote:
  " I've been trying to avoid this discussion, since it DOES seem pointless to try to change anyone's mind."

* : "DOES seem pointless " It's seem point less but is NOT. In the rooms for the last 60 years and now in more than 150 000 Club houses all over the planet,  they are tryng or  actualy are changing the mind of hard core alcoholics and addicts.
Quite a successful journey :-) If you think that all started with a couple of broke drunks

you wrote :
       " I was told over and over at AA;  that everything is happening just exactly the way it's supposed to"
* Everything is happening just exactly the way it's supposed to . God know best what is good for you . This statement is for people who are clean and sober.People who gave up their will for God will. This do not apply always and everywhere. Will be to simple, don't you think ?

You follow with:
  "that everything is happening just exactly the way it's supposed to - so if Preston and myself are still "using," that's perfect.
 I don't understand - but I don't think anyone really understands any of it very well (even the "self-proclaimed gurus.").

* you wrote that  you "don't understand "and that OK because you started with a wrong explanation and a deformation of the thought of AA.  You wrote " but I don't think anyone really understands any of it very well " You right, this a paradox and only people who gave up the fight agins their addiction like in Step One and surrender to a power greater then themselves can understand it. Spirituality is mysterious and don't follow ours human rules. How the infinitely small can understant the infinitely great ?
About the " self proclamed gurus "  All the Gurus are self proclaimed contrary to the rest of us who could be elected..Generaly they do so out of a strong personal  spiritual experience. Some  could proclaime too themself as leaders out of crazyness, power or greed. I guess the only way to recognize the bad apple from the good  ones is trought the study of their lifes and fruits.
In my humble opinion true gurus where Bob and Bill from AA regarding addictions and this came after a very stong spiritual experience for one of them. The man who discover Ibogaine and the use of it against addiction is a guru  .
>From Guru  : 17 century Sanscrit " Elder, Teacher ".

 Sorry, if  I disapointed you. :-(

God bless

Francis
P. S Regarding  Preston, I am sorry to know that he suffers from great physical pain. Is case is different, and I want to apologize to him if I hurted is feeling in anyway.

From: booker w 
  To: ibogaine at mindvox.com 
  Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 5:21 PM
  Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick


  Hi.  I've been trying to avoid this discussion, since it DOES seem pointless to try to change anyone's mind.  But Nick, how about all the fat people...should we force them into "rehab" too, or at least go shopping with them and cook their food and exercise them.  They're obviously draining the planet's "good" vibes by their excess, not too mention all the animal suffering (it's probably impossible to be fat and a vegan.)  I mention fatness because two of my best friends are literally dying from morbid obesity.  Watching them eat is like watching a dying junkie shoot up. It's damn difficult to see, and I offer whatever I can for them, but I don't support holding a gun to their head... (or forced rehab either.)

  Preston, I support your position completely, but I think you're probably right to give up the fight.  Nick, you've always been great to me, but yeah, I agree with Howard.  You were so into "the world is doomed," and now I guess you've changed that stance and want to help alleviate suffering, which is great!  But, just like most of us, we want everyone else to change and think we know just how they should do it.  Don't worry, I think that all the time myself, but I know it's mistaken.  One of the precepts I was told over and over at AA;  that everything is happening just exactly the way it's supposed to - so if Preston and myself are still "using," that's perfect.  Why that's perfect, I don't understand - but I don't think anyone really understands any of it very well (even the "self-proclaimed gurus.")  Another thing that I also learned in AA is that it's not really my business what anyone else is doing.  Just concentrate on "my side of the street."  (Another damn difficult thing to do.)  There's chaos, then there's order, then chaos again... that's the only idea that makes any sense to me anymore...

  Best to all, Sandy



  >From: "Nick Sandberg" <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk> 
  >Reply-To: ibogaine at mindvox.com 
  >To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com> 
  >Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Francis and Nick 
  >Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:07:52 -0000 
  > 
  >Hi Howard, 
  > 
  >Many thanks for the link. Personally, I do not agree with Dr Cohen's 
  >viewpoint. I do not agree that it is valid to administer a high-powered 
  >analgesic to oneself for a large portion of one's time on this planet, 
  >(unless this is a strategy agreed on by medical professionals with regard to 
  >the individual). My opinion is that this is a life-negating orientation and 
  >I oppose it. I believe that doing so emotionally disenfranchises the 
  >individual from society with overall deleterious effects on our planetary 
  >life. Even worse, it's a fucking drag. That's my position! 
  > 
  >with love 
  > 
  >Nick 
  > 
  /]=---------------------------------------------------------------------=[\ [%] Ibogaine List Commands: http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html [%] \]=---------------------------------------------------------------------=[/ 
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