[Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism

Nick Sandberg nick227 at tiscali.co.uk
Wed Jan 26 15:55:03 EST 2005



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet at nyc.rr.com]
> Sent: 26 January 2005 20:19
> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
>
>
> Nick asked >What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or
> otherwise? I mean,
> don't you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
> don't want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
> Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just
> be dragged
> out of their homes and made to take part.
> <
>
> What?!
> Um, I would prefer not to hang out with a general fucking drag,
> but who am I
> to take that to the next level. For crying out loud, I find most drunks
> total freakin' drags Nick, but I don't wanna lock 'em up and make
> them face
> whatever. I certain do not agree that it would be great to have
> some social
> laws for people who don't want to participate in life, I personally find
> that horrifying and completely batty.
> Again, no offense, but wow, that's pretty extreme. I'm actually
> completely
> the opposite, feeling quite the Libertarian when it comes to this sort of
> thing.
>     And I'm sure there are plenty of people who would like to
> drag you out
> of your home and lock you away for daring even talk about, much less use
> such a dangerous and criminal mistake of the lord as ibogaine. (I use
> imagined prohibitionist terminology, not my own here.) They've already
> written some nifty social laws I suppose we could emulate- force everyone
> out of their homes, to take ibogaine and face their stuff. Egad,
> that's so
> damned not right and downright un-American (again, I jest 'cause
> it's just
> too damned America really) what you are saying here. I'm amazed. I think
> I've not been paying attention to what certain people have been
> posting on
> this here list.
>
> >I mean ibogaine IS fencing-in,
> basic principle of liberating consciousness - enclose it. Let it start to
> see what it really is, reflected back on itself.<
>
> I gotta just say Nick that while I enjoyed ibogaine and
> definitely plan on
> going through it at least another time (maybe a lot of other time- won't
> committ to that yet, instead taking it one trip at a time), I didn't need
> ibogaine or any other drug to liberate my consciousness- my "liberated
> conciousness" was what lead me to try drugs in the first place,
> at least so
> I believe. I use various drugs to various reasons, and ibogaine
> is one more
> drug to use for one more (or more than one, I will definitely
> grant it that)
> reason too.
>
> >I live in a community I love and I work and I
> have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
> world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.<
>
> Funny, so do I, and yeah, I tend to think I celebrate existence
> to the very
> best of my ability, so I'm not sure what your point is.
> But I'm still having trouble with the whole "let's drag [some? So who
> decides who is a drag and who is not Nick, and what constitutes
> drag? Would
> drag be defined universally or would we take into consideration cultural
> mores and habits? Woudl certain clothing styles or musical tastes be
> included in this? Or religious or political viewpoints?

Hi Preston,

I mean the thing about dragging people out into the streets will probably
take another couple of decades to become really viable, the way I see it.
But it'll come for sure if people don't respond in other ways and show
themselves more. As the overall level of consciousness on the planet starts
to rise and stabilize so heroin is going to become about the least hip thing
imaginable. In any rising awareness situation this is something of an
inevitability for analgesics are basically anti-awareness.

I mean, you CAN fight for your rights as junkies, but the problem with that
is that if you really put your position out fully you're inevitably going to
find it transmuted, your awareness will rise through the very action of
really fighting for something, full on with all your energy. Basically,
heroin can't win, for it relies on the user never going totally into a
feeling to maintain its hold on the body. When society starts to move
towards pushing users more out into the open then a lot of change will occur
spontaneously for the very action of fully resisting that change actually
catalyses it even more strongly.

love

Nick

It appear
> exactly so
> from what I'm reading into your words. Sheeze, this is so messed
> up, really,
> I'm having trouble even wrapping my head around the idea that you might
> really be serious) people out of their homes and force them" to
> do anything.
> I think I'd be very unhappy to see you arrive at my door with
> that attitude.
> It would lead to very, very unpleasentry and lots of non-huggy and
> ingrateness for sure.
>
> I wish sometimes I was more of a cretin so I could curse and fume and not
> feel stupid for doing so, because occasionally I'm hit with a brick like
> this email from out of nowhere and I really want to express my
> amazement in
> more gutteral, street lingo, but there are ladies present and all that,
> so....
>
> Peace and love,
> Preston Peet
>
> "Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
> mistaken for madness"
> Richard Davenport-Hines
>
> ptpeet at nyc.rr.com
> Editor http://www.drugwar.com
> Editor "Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs"
> Editor "Mysterious Roots- The Disinformation Guide to Ancient
> Civilizations,
> Explorations and Enigmas" (due out Sept. 2005)
> Cont. High Times mag/.com
> Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
> Columnist New York Waste
> Etc.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nick Sandberg" <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk>
> To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:52 AM
> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
>
>
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet at nyc.rr.com]
> >> Sent: 26 January 2005 14:27
> >> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> >> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
> >>
> >>
> >> >Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
> >> you have to keep stuffing the world's most powerful painkiller into you
> >> day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
> >> think it's fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think
> it's totally
> >> fine. I'm not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats,
> >> that they
> >> are victimized, but that they're pushed to look a little deeper, to go
> >> for
> >> awareness, I think that's fine. In fact I think it's great and
> a sign of
> >> rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to
> >> start
> >> living that.<
> >>
> >> Nick, that's a little scary to me actually, the idea that someone
> >> might have
> >> enough power to not only feel that they could point me in the
> >> direction they
> >> feel I should be going in my life, but can fence me in to
> force me to do
> >> so...oh, wait, that's already happening with the whole stinkin'
> >> war on some
> >> drugs and user to begin with, nothing new there.
> >>     I am a bit taken aback to read the notion from someone as
> >> loving or at
> >> least caring as you come across being.
> >>
> >
> > Hi Preston,
> >
> > Well, for me, I like to be able to feel someone, you know. Feel who they
> > are, connect with them. I'm not so interested in being
> presented with the
> > drug-edited version of who they are that they want to show the
> world. For
> > sure, we all hide ourselves, drug-users or otherwise, but it's a drag. I
> > like it when I can see the whole person, including all the crazy or bad
> > shit
> > they think they have to hide away. Druggies are no different
> from anybody
> > else in this.
> >
> > And I think a bit of fencing-in is fine. The whole "therapeutic
> community"
> > concept, from Synanon to Phoenix House to Humaniversity, I think it's
> > great.
> > When you're surrounded by others 24 hours a day, reflecting
> your behaviour
> > back at you, you get to find out who you are pretty quickly -
> what you'll
> > back down about, what you'll take a stand about, what you care
> about, and
> > what you'll let go. The core of Christianity was the same - the whole
> > crucifixion thing is a metaphor, it means you stay in once place and you
> > face your shit, they called it the Fixed Cross in astrology - a few
> > zillion
> > incarnations on the Mutable cross, then you're initiated on the Fixed
> > cross
> > and have to look, then, when freed from delusion you get to hang out on
> > the
> > Cardinal cross. It's the same principle throughout mythology and
> > symbolism -
> > JC on his cross, Odin on his tree, whatever. Bwiti the same, iboga
> > initiation means you're incapacitated on the drug and you have
> to look at
> > yourself. That's what it's all about psychologically. I mean,
> you can come
> > towards ibogaine from the whole pain-management and neurochemical
> > perspective and that's totally fine. But make no mistake, when you start
> > dealing with larger doses you're dealing with a fencing-in tool par
> > excellence. This is a strange place to hang out if you're not into
> > fencing-in!
> >
> >> Again, you wrote >I'm not advocating that junkies are made social
> >> scapegoats, that they
> >> are victimized, but that they're pushed to look a little deeper, to go
> >> for
> >> awareness, I think that's fine. In fact I think it's great and
> a sign of
> >> rising world awareness.<
> >>
> >> This is to me terrible. Until a junky asks for help in stopping
> >> their use, I
> >> would hope you would leave them alone (unless they're breaking
> into your
> >> home or robbing you in some other fashion- then by all means,
> take action
> >> and start fencing) and to think that you think it fine to
> force others to
> >> curtail their freedoms until they begin to see life more like you
> >> competely
> >> shocks me and saddens me.
> >
> > What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or
> otherwise? I mean,
> > don't you agree it would be great to have some social laws for
> people who
> > don't want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and
> Who make the
> > Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be
> > dragged
> > out of their homes and made to take part.
> >
> >>
> >> >That's where I am. I'm pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I'm
> >> pro-awareness and
> >> anti-numbing out. That's my position, and I am happy if you want
> >> to try and
> >> shift me from it.<
> >>
> >> Bully for you Nick, but why would I want to shift you from it,
> unless you
> >> try to fence me in somehow to force me to see the world from your
> >> viewpoint?
> >> Then I'll not only shift you, I'll probably fight you tooth
> and nail with
> >> all my heart.
> >>
> >> >To me, when the Bwiti say "Break open the Head" what they
> mean is - the
> >> stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You
> >> have
> >> the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let
> healing in.
> >> You no longer have the sole option of choosing "I do this, not
> >> that. I hang
> >> out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this." <
> >>
> >> Fencing in others to force them to take personal inventory and
> >> "go a little
> >> deeper" is NOT a choice at all nor healing in the slightest,
> at least not
> >> for me. It's too much like Drug Court and mandatory treatment
> >> plans. Ick as
> >> hell.
> >>
> >> Hate to say it, but for me, I get something from both opiates and from
> >> ibogaine, or I did get something from the couple times taking
> >> ibogaine and
> >> still get something (beneficial I mean- I'm not talking about the
> >> "ah shit,
> >> I'm running low" stuff) from opiates.
> >> Any fundamentalism drives me a bit loopy and leaves me feeling
> encroached
> >> upon. To be so absolute (i.e. ibogaine good/heroin bad,
> >> pro-ibogaine/anti-heroin) just seems too, oh, I don't know, not
> >> me? To me it
> >> simply sounds like you are placing yourself on a nice big
> white horse and
> >> looking down from your self-described position of enlightened
> >> enlightenment
> >> and saying how much better you are than those who still want to
> >> use opiates
> >> for whatever reason. That's the message I'm gradually getting
> >> from you Nick,
> >> and I must say I'm a bit surprised to read from anyone on a
> list dealing
> >> with ibogaine that they're into the idea of forcing people
> into fenced in
> >> enclosures because they use the wrong drugs.
> >
> > Well, fencing-in stuff I talked about above. I mean ibogaine IS
> > fencing-in,
> > basic principle of liberating consciousness - enclose it. Let
> it start to
> > see what it really is, reflected back on itself. And I'm not
> enlightened,
> > I
> > don't even know what it means. I live in a community I love and
> I work and
> > I
> > have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
> > world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.
> >
> > with love
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> > Damn, that's scary, as I've
> >> already noted- remind me not to vote for you, ever. I am being quite
> >> pointedly blunt here, but I'm not actually feeling hostile in
> >> your directon
> >> Nick, but rather, I'm very strongly disagreeing with you and
> >> attempting to
> >> explain why I find your expressed viewpoint here so damned scary
> >> and to me,
> >> well, wrong.
> >> ;-))
> >> But that said, no matter how much I disagree, so long as you
> >> don't ever have
> >> any power over me, I won't ever want to "shift you away" or
> stop you from
> >> expressing it, no matter how much I stongly disagree with you,
> >> nor would I
> >> want to limit your freedoms even a little bit, even to force
> you to look
> >> deeper. I'd love to read from you, "oh, you know what, yer
> right Preston,
> >> what was I thinking," but don't expect to see that, and don't
> >> particularly
> >> care if I do or not- so long, again, as you never ever have
> >> enough power to
> >> force me to do anything.
> >>     The whole notion that it's ok to force others into life situations
> >> because someone else thinks they know best if sickening, scary
> >> and facist so
> >> far as I define fascism.
> >>
> >> >It's just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, and it
> >> showed me
> >> >my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to
> >> interract with
> >> >people but not communicate to them what I know.<
> >>
> >> As the title to one of Disinfo's books puts it, "Everything
> you 'KNOW' is
> >> Wrong."
> >> Nuther ;-))
> >>
> >> Peace and love,
> >> Preston
> >>
> >> "Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for
> enlightenment is often
> >> mistaken for madness"
> >> Richard Davenport-Hines
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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