[Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism

Nick Sandberg nick227 at tiscali.co.uk
Wed Jan 26 10:52:09 EST 2005



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet at nyc.rr.com]
> Sent: 26 January 2005 14:27
> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism
>
>
> >Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
> you have to keep stuffing the world's most powerful painkiller into you
> day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
> think it's fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think it's totally
> fine. I'm not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats,
> that they
> are victimized, but that they're pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
> awareness, I think that's fine. In fact I think it's great and a sign of
> rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to start
> living that.<
>
> Nick, that's a little scary to me actually, the idea that someone
> might have
> enough power to not only feel that they could point me in the
> direction they
> feel I should be going in my life, but can fence me in to force me to do
> so...oh, wait, that's already happening with the whole stinkin'
> war on some
> drugs and user to begin with, nothing new there.
>     I am a bit taken aback to read the notion from someone as
> loving or at
> least caring as you come across being.
>

Hi Preston,

Well, for me, I like to be able to feel someone, you know. Feel who they
are, connect with them. I'm not so interested in being presented with the
drug-edited version of who they are that they want to show the world. For
sure, we all hide ourselves, drug-users or otherwise, but it's a drag. I
like it when I can see the whole person, including all the crazy or bad shit
they think they have to hide away. Druggies are no different from anybody
else in this.

And I think a bit of fencing-in is fine. The whole "therapeutic community"
concept, from Synanon to Phoenix House to Humaniversity, I think it's great.
When you're surrounded by others 24 hours a day, reflecting your behaviour
back at you, you get to find out who you are pretty quickly - what you'll
back down about, what you'll take a stand about, what you care about, and
what you'll let go. The core of Christianity was the same - the whole
crucifixion thing is a metaphor, it means you stay in once place and you
face your shit, they called it the Fixed Cross in astrology - a few zillion
incarnations on the Mutable cross, then you're initiated on the Fixed cross
and have to look, then, when freed from delusion you get to hang out on the
Cardinal cross. It's the same principle throughout mythology and symbolism -
JC on his cross, Odin on his tree, whatever. Bwiti the same, iboga
initiation means you're incapacitated on the drug and you have to look at
yourself. That's what it's all about psychologically. I mean, you can come
towards ibogaine from the whole pain-management and neurochemical
perspective and that's totally fine. But make no mistake, when you start
dealing with larger doses you're dealing with a fencing-in tool par
excellence. This is a strange place to hang out if you're not into
fencing-in!

> Again, you wrote >I'm not advocating that junkies are made social
> scapegoats, that they
> are victimized, but that they're pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
> awareness, I think that's fine. In fact I think it's great and a sign of
> rising world awareness.<
>
> This is to me terrible. Until a junky asks for help in stopping
> their use, I
> would hope you would leave them alone (unless they're breaking into your
> home or robbing you in some other fashion- then by all means, take action
> and start fencing) and to think that you think it fine to force others to
> curtail their freedoms until they begin to see life more like you
> competely
> shocks me and saddens me.

What about just being a general fucking drag, junkie or otherwise? I mean,
don't you agree it would be great to have some social laws for people who
don't want to participate in life? OK, it could be abused and Who make the
Rules Up and all that, but really I think some people should just be dragged
out of their homes and made to take part.

>
> >That's where I am. I'm pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I'm
> pro-awareness and
> anti-numbing out. That's my position, and I am happy if you want
> to try and
> shift me from it.<
>
> Bully for you Nick, but why would I want to shift you from it, unless you
> try to fence me in somehow to force me to see the world from your
> viewpoint?
> Then I'll not only shift you, I'll probably fight you tooth and nail with
> all my heart.
>
> >To me, when the Bwiti say "Break open the Head" what they mean is - the
> stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You have
> the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let healing in.
> You no longer have the sole option of choosing "I do this, not
> that. I hang
> out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this." <
>
> Fencing in others to force them to take personal inventory and
> "go a little
> deeper" is NOT a choice at all nor healing in the slightest, at least not
> for me. It's too much like Drug Court and mandatory treatment
> plans. Ick as
> hell.
>
> Hate to say it, but for me, I get something from both opiates and from
> ibogaine, or I did get something from the couple times taking
> ibogaine and
> still get something (beneficial I mean- I'm not talking about the
> "ah shit,
> I'm running low" stuff) from opiates.
> Any fundamentalism drives me a bit loopy and leaves me feeling encroached
> upon. To be so absolute (i.e. ibogaine good/heroin bad,
> pro-ibogaine/anti-heroin) just seems too, oh, I don't know, not
> me? To me it
> simply sounds like you are placing yourself on a nice big white horse and
> looking down from your self-described position of enlightened
> enlightenment
> and saying how much better you are than those who still want to
> use opiates
> for whatever reason. That's the message I'm gradually getting
> from you Nick,
> and I must say I'm a bit surprised to read from anyone on a list dealing
> with ibogaine that they're into the idea of forcing people into fenced in
> enclosures because they use the wrong drugs.

Well, fencing-in stuff I talked about above. I mean ibogaine IS fencing-in,
basic principle of liberating consciousness - enclose it. Let it start to
see what it really is, reflected back on itself. And I'm not enlightened, I
don't even know what it means. I live in a community I love and I work and I
have fun. I like communal living, I like it that we lay our trip on the
world a bit here. Yeah, celebrate existence.

with love

Nick


Damn, that's scary, as I've
> already noted- remind me not to vote for you, ever. I am being quite
> pointedly blunt here, but I'm not actually feeling hostile in
> your directon
> Nick, but rather, I'm very strongly disagreeing with you and
> attempting to
> explain why I find your expressed viewpoint here so damned scary
> and to me,
> well, wrong.
> ;-))
> But that said, no matter how much I disagree, so long as you
> don't ever have
> any power over me, I won't ever want to "shift you away" or stop you from
> expressing it, no matter how much I stongly disagree with you,
> nor would I
> want to limit your freedoms even a little bit, even to force you to look
> deeper. I'd love to read from you, "oh, you know what, yer right Preston,
> what was I thinking," but don't expect to see that, and don't
> particularly
> care if I do or not- so long, again, as you never ever have
> enough power to
> force me to do anything.
>     The whole notion that it's ok to force others into life situations
> because someone else thinks they know best if sickening, scary
> and facist so
> far as I define fascism.
>
> >It's just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, and it
> showed me
> >my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to
> interract with
> >people but not communicate to them what I know.<
>
> As the title to one of Disinfo's books puts it, "Everything you 'KNOW' is
> Wrong."
> Nuther ;-))
>
> Peace and love,
> Preston
>
> "Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often
> mistaken for madness"
> Richard Davenport-Hines




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