[Ibogaine] ibogaine and scary fascism

Preston Peet ptpeet at nyc.rr.com
Wed Jan 26 09:26:48 EST 2005


>Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but if
you have to keep stuffing the world's most powerful painkiller into you
day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
think it's fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think it's totally
fine. I'm not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats, that they
are victimized, but that they're pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
awareness, I think that's fine. In fact I think it's great and a sign of
rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to start
living that.<

Nick, that's a little scary to me actually, the idea that someone might have 
enough power to not only feel that they could point me in the direction they 
feel I should be going in my life, but can fence me in to force me to do 
so...oh, wait, that's already happening with the whole stinkin' war on some 
drugs and user to begin with, nothing new there.
    I am a bit taken aback to read the notion from someone as loving or at 
least caring as you come across being.

Again, you wrote >I'm not advocating that junkies are made social 
scapegoats, that they
are victimized, but that they're pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
awareness, I think that's fine. In fact I think it's great and a sign of
rising world awareness.<

This is to me terrible. Until a junky asks for help in stopping their use, I 
would hope you would leave them alone (unless they're breaking into your 
home or robbing you in some other fashion- then by all means, take action 
and start fencing) and to think that you think it fine to force others to 
curtail their freedoms until they begin to see life more like you competely 
shocks me and saddens me.

>That's where I am. I'm pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I'm pro-awareness and
anti-numbing out. That's my position, and I am happy if you want to try and
shift me from it.<

Bully for you Nick, but why would I want to shift you from it, unless you 
try to fence me in somehow to force me to see the world from your viewpoint? 
Then I'll not only shift you, I'll probably fight you tooth and nail with 
all my heart.

>To me, when the Bwiti say "Break open the Head" what they mean is - the
stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You have
the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let healing in.
You no longer have the sole option of choosing "I do this, not that. I hang
out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this." <

Fencing in others to force them to take personal inventory and "go a little 
deeper" is NOT a choice at all nor healing in the slightest, at least not 
for me. It's too much like Drug Court and mandatory treatment plans. Ick as 
hell.

Hate to say it, but for me, I get something from both opiates and from 
ibogaine, or I did get something from the couple times taking ibogaine and 
still get something (beneficial I mean- I'm not talking about the "ah shit, 
I'm running low" stuff) from opiates.
Any fundamentalism drives me a bit loopy and leaves me feeling encroached 
upon. To be so absolute (i.e. ibogaine good/heroin bad, 
pro-ibogaine/anti-heroin) just seems too, oh, I don't know, not me? To me it 
simply sounds like you are placing yourself on a nice big white horse and 
looking down from your self-described position of enlightened enlightenment 
and saying how much better you are than those who still want to use opiates 
for whatever reason. That's the message I'm gradually getting from you Nick, 
and I must say I'm a bit surprised to read from anyone on a list dealing 
with ibogaine that they're into the idea of forcing people into fenced in 
enclosures because they use the wrong drugs. Damn, that's scary, as I've 
already noted- remind me not to vote for you, ever. I am being quite 
pointedly blunt here, but I'm not actually feeling hostile in your directon 
Nick, but rather, I'm very strongly disagreeing with you and attempting to 
explain why I find your expressed viewpoint here so damned scary and to me, 
well, wrong.
;-))
But that said, no matter how much I disagree, so long as you don't ever have 
any power over me, I won't ever want to "shift you away" or stop you from 
expressing it, no matter how much I stongly disagree with you, nor would I 
want to limit your freedoms even a little bit, even to force you to look 
deeper. I'd love to read from you, "oh, you know what, yer right Preston, 
what was I thinking," but don't expect to see that, and don't particularly 
care if I do or not- so long, again, as you never ever have enough power to 
force me to do anything.
    The whole notion that it's ok to force others into life situations 
because someone else thinks they know best if sickening, scary and facist so 
far as I define fascism.

>It's just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, and it showed me 
>my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to interract with 
>people but not communicate to them what I know.<

As the title to one of Disinfo's books puts it, "Everything you 'KNOW' is 
Wrong."
Nuther ;-))

Peace and love,
Preston

"Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is often 
mistaken for madness"
Richard Davenport-Hines

ptpeet at nyc.rr.com
Editor http://www.drugwar.com
Editor "Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs"
Cont. High Times mag/.com
Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
Columnist New York Waste
Etc.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nick Sandberg" <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk>
To: <ibogaine at mindvox.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine


> Hi Preston,
>
> Sorry if I come on a bit haughty, it's not my intention. I don't know it 
> all
> by a long shot. It's just that I used a lot of ibogaine a few years ago, 
> and
> it showed me my path to change, and now it would be frustrating for me to
> interract with people but not communicate to them what I know. OK, so 
> that's
> my trip but I'm going to keep laying it on people because that is what I 
> do.
> And I'm going to keep learning. I don't like to see people using opiates,
> except for temporary pain control in crisis situations. That's my trip, 
> man.
> I wanna change the fucking world. Personally, if Ekki wants to complain
> about the German government trying to fence addicts in, well, to me, it's
> fair enough what they do. Freedom of speech and action is one thing, but 
> if
> you have to keep stuffing the world's most powerful painkiller into you
> day-in-day-out simply to maintain your perspective on the world, then I
> think it's fine the world pushes you to look deeper. I think it's totally
> fine. I'm not advocating that junkies are made social scapegoats, that 
> they
> are victimized, but that they're pushed to look a little deeper, to go for
> awareness, I think that's fine. In fact I think it's great and a sign of
> rising world awareness. We are One, and at some point we all have to start
> living that.
>
> That's where I am. I'm pro-ibogaine and anti-heroin. I'm pro-awareness and
> anti-numbing out. That's my position, and I am happy if you want to try 
> and
> shift me from it.
>
> To me, when the Bwiti say "Break open the Head" what they mean is - the
> stranglehold of your personal perspective on the world is broken. You have
> the choice to let other people in. You have the choice to let healing in.
> You no longer have the sole option of choosing "I do this, not that. I 
> hang
> out with these guys and not these. THIS is who I am, and not this." The
> whole fencing-in of the personal perspective is broken by the drug. For 
> me,
> I believe that's why they take it in Africa. For sure, it happened to me
> when I took it in London, and in the Cameroun.
>
> I'm not talking about you personally here, it's general.
>
> Anyway, that's my position. I apologize if it seems haughty to you or 
> anyone
> else but this is my position. Che sera.
>
> With love
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Nick Sandberg [mailto:nick227 at tiscali.co.uk]
>> Sent: 25 January 2005 23:39
>> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>> Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Preston Peet [mailto:ptpeet at nyc.rr.com]
>> > Sent: 25 January 2005 22:07
>> > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
>> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] cynicism and ibogaine
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi all,
>> >     Nick asked,
>> >
>> > >Correct me if I'm wrong here - basically you
>> > want to get off and stay off drugs, but you want to do it on your own
>> > terms.<
>> >
>> > No Nick, getting off and staying off drugs isn't really my goal
>> > at all, not
>> > at this time anyway. I have no desire whatsoever to go through surgery.
>> > Until I do find something else that helps me cope with being inside 
>> > such
>> > constantly angry nerve endings, I'll continue to rely on drugs to
>> > assist me
>> > with that coping. At the moment, despite moments of panic because I
>> > occasionally do too many and leave myself short, I've been able
>> to resist
>> > going to the streets to cop to suppliment my intake. It's not
>> > always fun or
>> > easy being addicted though, so I'd like the option of trying
>> > something along
>> > the lines of ibogaine maintenence. Some might not personally
>> > agree with this
>> > idea, but personally? I think that if I'm going to be using opiates 
>> > (the
>> > physically safest, least toxic pain killers I've ever come
>> across, not to
>> > mention most effective) for a while to come, I'd like to have the
>> > option of
>> > what's been described to me as "resetting." Where I can take a
>> > dose, kill my
>> > tolerance and habit, bring it back down to much smaller levels, and if 
>> > I
>> > need to do it again at some point down the road, by golly I want
>> > to be able
>> > to do just that without being told "you only get so many chances or you
>> > gotta find a new source." (Of course, this is assuming I have a
>> > source, and
>> > at the moment- listening feds?- there ain't no source. I'm thinking of
>> > possibilities for down the road, because at the moment there
>> > ain't no source
>> > to be found and I could use one. Got it Feds who might still be
>> > listening/reading?)
>> >     So with the "no source" thing in mind, remember please that
>> > I'm mainly
>> > just venting, not addressing this at anyone in particular,
>> > although I admit
>> > I am basing some of my statements on certain comments said to me at
>> > different times by this and that friend. But yes Nick, I do want to do
>> > things on my own terms. I'm so freakin' sick of being told I have
>> > to conform
>> > to this or that label, that I'm this or that because I do or
>> > don't, use or
>> > don't use, vote or don't vote, hate or don't, etc. While as it
>> > was said to
>> > me in a variety of -A rooms at a variety of times, "it was your own 
>> > best
>> > thinking that got you here," well, I ain't still in those
>> rooms, and I've
>> > been making something of myself beyond a conniving street denizen
>> > despite my
>> > need for and use of (for a long, long time now pretty much almost 
>> > always
>> > legal) opiates. So to wrap it up, nope, don't want off drugs,
>> > just to have
>> > the option of having ibogaine to drastically reset the habit.
>> >     Any thoughts anyone?
>> >
>> > Peace and love,
>> > Preston
>> >
>>
>> Hey Preston,
>>
>> I'd just point out that the human body and mind are just machines
>> at the end
>> of the day. Your personality is unique in that everything is unique, but
>> it's just a structure. And, research has shown, if you put that
>> personality
>> through the processes of therapy it becomes a lot more efficient - a lot
>> calmer and happier, more capable of getting its needs met directly, a lot
>> more grounded. In early life, people develop a fascination with proving 
>> to
>> themselves their own uniqueness, and that's fine, but it usually wears 
>> off
>> with advancing years and a more practical approach develops. What
>> I'm try to
>> say is....does it really matter so much what you do with therapy, 
>> ibogaine
>> or whatever? That you have to conform to someone else's protocol - is it
>> really such a big deal? I mean, where do you have a way of evaluating
>> something if you haven't tried it anyway? Can you really tell if 
>> something
>> won't work for you if you don't go fully into it, just to see, without a
>> pre-conceived attitude or cynicism? Just seems to me you might be missing
>> out. Having been a closed individual, determined to maintain my
>> own sense of
>> uniqueness, at the cost of any meaningful development, for years, I 
>> really
>> appreciate the openness I find these days from a few years of
>> doing groups,
>> ibogaine, whatever. Coming out of the vaulted palace of the ego, with its
>> preconceptions of who I am, to test these beliefs in the wider
>> world, it's a
>> gift, man, the greatest journey there is.
>>
>> with love
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Madness is not enlightenment, but the search for enlightenment is 
>> > often
>> > mistaken for madness"
>> > Richard Davenport-Hines
>> >
>> > ptpeet at nyc.rr.com
>> > Editor http://www.drugwar.com
>> > Editor "Under the Influence- the Disinformation Guide to Drugs"
>> > Cont. High Times mag/.com
>> > Cont. Editor http://www.disinfo.com
>> > Columnist New York Waste
>> > Etc.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
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