[Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper - Att. Lorenzo Correction

Lee Albert myeboga at yahoo.co.uk
Tue Jan 4 06:24:20 EST 2005


Lorenzo,
Sorry, I said in pt 7 that its your idea that there are no common traits in humanity. Thats incorrect. You dont state that. Also, I am sorry if my post is a little reactive. Perhaps I am feeling a little tired and frustrated.
All the best to you
Lee

Lee Albert <myeboga at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Lorenzo,
 
Let me make a few responses to your post:
 
1. I never ask anyone to believe a word I say.
2. I don't seek to express superiority. Maybe my ego from time to time gets out of the bag. Bad boy - in you go! However in the same way as someone who has studied their subject and tries to share it with others I don't pretend to be ignorant of it either. I am sorry if you take that as trying to be superior. Its not my intention.
3. In regards to the Bwiti I mean no disrepect and apologise if some was given. I also prefixed that point with: 'a reactive thought'. What I stated there is (to my recollection) documented by observers. I imagine that a true eboga doctor would have no problem with the point I made and probably smile. However, i do see your point and once again I apologise for any offense given. I can see how the word hubris would apply there. Apart from this example though I am not aware of it being a regular part of my posts.
4. As far as overcomplicating goes. Look mate I am just sharing my experiences and if you don't agree with them so be it. Do you want me to keep them quiet because they perhaps challenge you to consider something you haven't considered before or is it that you feel they are irrelevant to the discussion and thus making matters unnecessarily complicated? Perhaps they are. So perhaps I should seek out a different forum to express them? What do you think? I am open to guidance on that. 
4.1 I would add though that these discussions have emerged out of a defense on my part to my analysis of a path to healing and how to deal with that. ie. the ego, the emotional body and the soul. I sometimes am left with no choice but to defend these positions when they are being knocked down so that others can decide for themselves. I consider the notion of "source" only as dangerously simple for a healing journey.
5. You keep saying I enjoy doing ibogaine. With all due respect please read the account of my first ibogaine experience detailed in my book and then you can make an informed opinion. 
6. Having said that as time goes by and there are less issues to deal with (which you seem to ignore in your post i.e. the difficulty of dealing with issues) and there are many wonderful aspects to it. Does that offend you?
7. I take offense when you say that I presume to fit everyone into my ideology. For what its worth we are all different and I believe that there are common aspects to all of us which I am trying to document. Each has their own path. I am sharing mine. if everyone took your idea that there were no common traits in humanity, literature would be a lot poorer for it. For what its worth I keep repeating there are many paths.
8. Regarding cigarettes. Does it matter that I keep repeating that I am only using it as an example or are so pissed off with what I have written that you have this idea that I consider myself on a par with other addicts in terms of the problems they have? However, I do consider the possibility that there is a common route to addiction linked to childhood trauma etc. And smoking is an addiction. Its not the major problem in my life. Just a reflection of the state I find myself in from time to time.
9. If you read my post correctly to Howard you would realise I was stating an opinion for discussion. Not laying down the law. Can I not develop ideas and seek responses? Could you not simply have said you disagreed and we could have opened up the discussion?
 
Finally, in case I have not made it clear I do not consider myself perfect nor never will be. If you find what I write offensive can you at least show a little curtesy in making your point rather than resorting to offensiveness? I am (whether you accept it or not) dedicating myself to help others in the best way I know how. Do I not deserve at least a little common curtesy? Or should I just sit back and grovel everytime someone gets pissed off with me and decides to tell me I have nothing but arrogance born out of disrespect and insolence towards others - hubris? If I wait for the day when I reach perfection I think I will miss out the opportunity to help a lot of people. I know I have a lot to learn and on that point I thank you for challenging me in this way as it does make me think and work on myself.
 
You say I am lucky I never was a drug addict. That is very true. But does that mean that drug addicts are the most suffering in society? Don't be blind to how much other people have suffered and are suffering right now. The world is sadly full of deep and unimaginable suffering. There is no way on earth I would have gone down the eboga path if there were not very, very pressing reasons!
 
On a last note, I wish you a very successful 2005 and I hope that it is a wonderful year for you. If I can in any way help in that please do not hesitate to contact me. I can only apologise for an offence given. It was not my intention.
 
Love & Light
 
Lee
 

Lorenzo <lorenzo-aguila at excite.com> wrote:


Lee to clarify what I meant to say. Firstly in reading my message, I was rude and there's no need for that so sorry for that. My point is the same though. I do not at all mind the theological and spiritual discussions that happen here, I rather enjoy them and think them to be part of iboga. 

When I use the word hubris in relation to what you write, there are two exact examples I can give in the last some odd days. You enjoy doing ibogaine and I think that's nice and I am sure that you are making progress in whatever way you think you need to. I do tend to agree more with Nick and think that in some or many ways you are overly complicating the simple but being human I think we all do this. 

What I find offensive is your attitude towards all others using ibogaine and your expressed superiority to what they do. A simple example from the last days is your attitude towards the Bwiti. It is their sacred root, they are on this list and you disrespect them. "Hence I think some of the reports coming from the Bwiti would seem to indicate that the doctors there are sometimes a little teetchy, i.e., contrary to others. I think that comes from too much culture/religion and not enough spirituality."

This is more then a little filled with judgment. My use of the word hubris you so objected to. Thank you I too have dictionary :-)

What prompted my letter was where you chose to give your view on all addiction. Which was in a post that Howard made which reprinted one of the first or the first, examples of doctors accepting that addiction is not always a psychological choice but instead a biological response that is different for different people. You presuming to fit everyone into your idealogy is maybe again to use that word, hubris. 

Have you ever thought that maybe the reason you struggle so much with cigarettes and have such a hard time stopping, when someone else can set them down and simply quit, without doing ibogaine who knows how many times or all this self observation, may have something to do with how your body and genes respond to it, which may be a very different response then that of someone else? Or do you attribute all of it to your psychological problems and this long journey you are on? 

In any event you are most likely very lucky that you never did hard drugs :-) 

Happy new years to everyone in the world.

Cheers
Lorenzo

--- On Mon 01/03, Lee Albert < myeboga at yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
From: Lee Albert [mailto: myeboga at yahoo.co.uk]
To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:55:36 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper - Addiction: A positive experience?

Hi Frances!
 
Thanks for your strong defense.
 
Don't worry. I am not left defenseless after this response from 
Lorenzo. I understand where he is coming from and I can only say I am 
sorry that my posts sometimes elicit this response but thats to be 
expected. I just hope that somehow it can be perceived that I am trying 
to ignite and contribute to the spiritual aspects of eboga for those 
who will take it and then ask the question:
 
What next?
 
Perhaps I could write a lot of dribble in my posts to make them more 
paletable but to be honest I rather just shoot from the hip. If I do 
become overbearing many apologies.
 
Love & Light
 
Lee
 


The Garden wrote:
Hi Lorenzo !1

With all due respect, but that is only my humble opinion.


You wrote :
> With all due respect I think you enjoy iboga because it offers you the
chance for endless navel gazing. That's good for you and all but there 
would
be many addicts and doctors who disagree with your opinions. There are 
many
who smoke pot for the same reason..

* The navel gazing thing at least his god for us as you said, but I will
call this " introspection " Called it navel gazing if you wish.that do 
not
bother me :-)

You wrote : there would be many addicts and doctors who disagree with 
your
opinions
* who told you that Lee wanted to have all the addicts and doctors to 
agree
with his views on spirituality ?. I can t speak for Lee, but personaly I
don't give a dime of the opinion of doctors regarding addiction and 
jugement
on the spirituality of addicts.
Unless they prove us that they can have good result on addiction, I will
trust more a Pakistani dishwasher working at Taco Bell than a doctor
regarding my sobriety.

You wrote :To put it into perspective there are countless people who 
have
stopped smoking without doing ibogaine 50 times or writing 100 messages
about their pain every time they stub a toe. They decided to stop 
smoking,
that was all.


* Good for them, more power to them!! I am happy for them, but 
unfortunately
most of smokers are not abble to do so and will die from their 
addiction.
By the way you don't have to do Ibo 50 times to quit smoking. :-)
* Actualy Lee was sharing about is experience post Ibogaine, not
particularly about his pain.

You wrote : I think all these things give you something to do, but
projecting it all over all others is hubris.

* That your opinion , but you are probably not aware that this is a 
Mailing
list on the subject of Ibogaine, about the treatment and the after 
effect in
the life of patient who took it. This a list where people share theirs
experience and strenght with complete sincerity and honesty; if that 
bother
you you and if you are not used to see real human beings talking about
theirs real experience, I can understand that..... A lot of people hate
sincerity and are seriously disturb by it.



You wrote : "The way I look at addiction" is with a lot of hubris, ego 
and
little understanding.

* In fact that exactly how I see your E-Mail. You put in it a lot of 
hubris,
ego and very little understanding.
What exactly bother you : the fact that Lee share is deep spirituality 
or
is it something else ? Let me know, I am always fascinated by people who
try for no reason to destroy spiritual growth in others.

God Bless
Francis
>
> Cheers
> Lorenzo
>
> --- On Sat 01/01, Lee Albert < myeboga at yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
> From: Lee Albert [mailto: myeboga at yahoo.co.uk]
> To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:23:35 +0000 (GMT)
> Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper - Addiction: A 
positive
experience?
>
> Howard,

Thanks for posting those links.

I had a read
through the pdf and if I am
not mistaken it argues that
addiction is
more a question of nuerological vulnerability rather than
a particular
personality type.

The way I look on addiction is this:

We
take a substance which removes the need to exert ego/emotional
control
over our inner baggage, problems, as it replaces the bad
emotional
states those repressed problems exert nuerologically
speaking, with
good feelings. In other words our defenses come down but
we cannot put
them back up after the substance has worn off and hence
the addiction.
Maybe its more a question of the persons overall psychic
state prior to
taking the substance. This could be termed an addictive
personality but
I think that is misleading as I imagine we are all
capable of such
character traits in dealing with the pain of baggage
that is
opened.

Addiction is a symptom of the need to resolve inner problems
imo.

I just came back from Ireland and when I got home after a few
days I
became aware of my Shadow self and a particular demon I have
been
avoiding. My urge was to smoke. When I was surrounded by friends
the
good inner feelings i have started to become accustomed to, due to
the
healing work I have done with eboga, returned and the urge to smoke

practically disappeared.

Another perspective on addiction I
would like to consider is this:

1. What lessons has the period of
addiction taught?
2. What effect does it have on the soul of the person
who fights the
addiction?

I think there is a very positive side
to addiction worth exploring and
one which, as one heals the causes,
one can then as part of the healing
tap into as giving one the sense
that it was not senseless and actually
led someone to where their soul
wanted them to go.

Love & Light,

Lee

HSLotsof at aol.com
wrote:
Dear list,

More than twenty years ago when I was performing
literature searches on
ibogaine and opioid and stimulant pharmacology
to support proposed
ibogaine patents
I obtained a copy of Heroin
Addiction - A Metabolic Disease by Drs.
Dole and
Nyswander, the
developers of methadone maintenance therapy. The paper
remained in my
files unvisited for twenty years when I rediscovered it
and
provided
it in a brochure presented at the American Association for the

Treatment of
Opioid Dependence (AATOD) conference held in
Washington, DC in April
2003
. Most of the papers except for
the
Dole/Nyswander paper were presented in electronic form on the Dora

Weiner Foundation
web page following the conference. There was no
PDF file of the Dole
paper
available and I did not have the
knowledge or time to provide such
then. It is
an amazingly original
paper and encouraging to any methadone patient who
might read it and to
any ibogaine researcher who wished to be accorded
the respect
in
the ibogaine world that Dole was accorded in the methadone world.

All
that being said, Heroin Addiction - A Metabolic Disease is
available as
a
downloadable PDF file from

http://www.doraweiner.org/dole_nyswander_1967.pdf

Howard

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Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / 
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Author: Amazing Grace 
 
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
 
www.myeboga.com/amazinggrace.html
 
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
 
www.myeboga.com/freecopy.html
 






Author: Amazing Grace 
 
A true story based on the use of eboga / ibogaine over a six year period.
 
www.myeboga.com/amazinggrace.html
 
Free copies of Amazing Grace available here for members of the media / librarians etc:
 
www.myeboga.com/freecopy.html
 




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