[Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper - Addiction: A positive experience?

Lorenzo lorenzo-aguila at excite.com
Mon Jan 3 17:57:14 EST 2005

Lee to clarify what I meant to say. Firstly in reading my message, I was rude and there's no need for that so sorry for that. My point is the same though. I do not at all mind the theological and spiritual discussions that happen here, I rather enjoy them and think them to be part of iboga. 

When I use the word hubris in relation to what you write, there are two exact examples I can give in the last some odd days. You enjoy doing ibogaine and I think that's nice and I am sure that you are making progress in whatever way you think you need to. I do tend to agree more with Nick and think that in some or many ways you are overly complicating the simple but being human I think we all do this. 

What I find offensive is your attitude towards all others using ibogaine and your expressed superiority to what they do. A simple example from the last days is your attitude towards the Bwiti. It is their sacred root, they are on this list and you disrespect them. "Hence I think some of the reports coming from the Bwiti would seem to indicate that the doctors there are sometimes a little teetchy, i.e., contrary to others. I think that comes from too much culture/religion and not enough spirituality."

This is more then a little filled with judgment. My use of the word hubris you so objected to. Thank you I too have dictionary :-)

What prompted my letter was where you chose to give your view on all addiction. Which was in a post that Howard made which reprinted one of the first or the first, examples of doctors accepting that addiction is not always a psychological choice but instead a biological response that is different for different people. You presuming to fit everyone into your idealogy is maybe again to use that word, hubris. 

Have you ever thought that maybe the reason you struggle so much with cigarettes and have such a hard time stopping, when someone else can set them down and simply quit, without doing ibogaine who knows how many times or all this self observation, may have something to do with how your body and genes respond to it, which may be a very different response then that of someone else? Or do you attribute all of it to your psychological problems and this long journey you are on? 

In any event you are most likely very lucky that you never did hard drugs :-) 

Happy new years to everyone in the world.


 --- On Mon 01/03, Lee Albert < myeboga at yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
From: Lee Albert [mailto: myeboga at yahoo.co.uk]
To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 19:55:36 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper - Addiction: A positive experience?

Hi Frances!<br> <br>Thanks for your strong defense.<br> <br>Don't worry. I am not left defenseless after this response from  <br>Lorenzo. I understand where he is coming from and I can only say I am  <br>sorry that my posts sometimes elicit this response but thats to be  <br>expected. I just hope that somehow it can be perceived that I am trying  <br>to ignite and contribute to the spiritual aspects of eboga for those  <br>who will take it and then ask the question:<br> <br>What next?<br> <br>Perhaps I could write a lot of dribble in my posts to make them more  <br>paletable but to be honest I rather just shoot from the hip. If I do  <br>become overbearing many apologies.<br> <br>Love & Light<br> <br>Lee<br> <br><br><br>The Garden <GardenRestaurant at comcast.net> wrote:<br>Hi Lorenzo !1<br><br>With all due respect, but that is only my humble opinion.<br><br><br>You wrote :<br> > With all due respect I think you enjoy iboga because it offers you the<br>chance for endless navel gazing. That's good for you and all but there  <br>would<br>be many addicts and doctors who disagree with your opinions. There are  <br>many<br>who smoke pot for the same reason..<br><br>* The navel gazing thing at least his god for us as you said, but I will<br>call this " introspection " Called it navel gazing if you wish.that do  <br>not<br>bother me :-)<br><br>You wrote : there would be many addicts and doctors who disagree with  <br>your<br>opinions<br>* who told you that Lee wanted to have all the addicts and doctors to  <br>agree<br>with his views on spirituality ?. I can t speak for Lee, but personaly I<br>don't give a dime of the opinion of doctors regarding addiction and  <br>jugement<br>on the spirituality of addicts.<br>Unless they prove us that they can have good result on addiction, I will<br>trust more a Pakistani dishwasher working at Taco Bell than a doctor<br>regarding my sobriety.<br><br>You wrote :To put it into perspective there are countless people who  <br>have<br>stopped smoking without doing ibogaine 50 times or writing 100 messages<br>about their pain every time they stub a toe. They decided to stop  <br>smoking,<br>that was all.<br><br><br>* Good for them, more power to them!! I am happy for them, but  <br>unfortunately<br>most of smokers are not abble to do so and will die from their  <br>addiction.<br>By the way you don't have to do Ibo 50 times to quit smoking. :-)<br>* Actualy Lee was sharing about is experience post Ibogaine, not<br>particularly about his pain.<br><br>You wrote : I think all these things give you something to do, but<br>projecting it all over all others is hubris.<br><br>* That your opinion , but you are probably not aware that this is a  <br>Mailing<br>list on the subject of Ibogaine, about the treatment and the after  <br>effect in<br>the life of patient who took it. This a list where people share theirs<br>experience and strenght with complete sincerity and honesty; if that  <br>bother<br>you you and if you are not used to see real human beings talking about<br>theirs real experience, I can understand that..... A lot of people hate<br>sincerity and are seriously disturb by it.<br><br><br><br>You wrote : "The way I look at addiction" is with a lot of hubris, ego  <br>and<br>little understanding.<br><br>* In fact that exactly how I see your E-Mail. You put in it a lot of  <br>hubris,<br>ego and very little understanding.<br>What exactly bother you : the fact that Lee share is deep spirituality  <br>or<br>is it something else ? Let me know, I am always fascinated by people who<br>try for no reason to destroy spiritual growth in others.<br><br>God Bless<br>Francis<br> ><br> > Cheers<br> > Lorenzo<br> ><br> > --- On Sat 01/01, Lee Albert < myeboga at yahoo.co.uk > wrote:<br> > From: Lee Albert [mailto: myeboga at yahoo.co.uk]<br> > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com<br> > Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:23:35 +0000 (GMT)<br> > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] early Dole/Nyswander paper - Addiction: A  <br>positive<br>experience?<br> ><br> > Howard,<br><br>Thanks for posting those links.<br><br>I had a read<br>through the pdf and if I am
  not mistaken it argues that<br>  addiction is<br>more a question of nuerological vulnerability rather than<br>  a particular<br>personality type.<br><br>The way I look on addiction is this:<br><br>We<br>take a substance which removes the need to exert ego/emotional<br>  control<br>over our inner baggage, problems, as it replaces the bad<br>  emotional<br>states those repressed problems exert nuerologically<br>  speaking, with<br>good feelings. In other words our defenses come down but<br>  we cannot put<br>them back up after the substance has worn off and hence<br>  the addiction.<br>Maybe its more a question of the persons overall psychic<br>  state prior to<br>taking the substance. This could be termed an addictive<br>  personality but<br>I think that is misleading as I imagine we are all<br>  capable of such<br>character traits in dealing with the pain of baggage<br>  that is<br>opened.<br><br>Addiction is a symptom of the need to resolve inner problems<br>imo.<br><br>I just came back from Ireland and when I got home after a few<br>days I<br>became aware of my Shadow self and a particular demon I have<br>been<br>  avoiding. My urge was to smoke. When I was surrounded by friends<br>the<br>  good inner feelings i have started to become accustomed to, due to<br>the<br>  healing work I have done with eboga, returned and the urge to smoke<br><br>practically disappeared.<br><br>Another perspective on addiction I<br>would like to consider is this:<br><br>1. What lessons has the period of<br>addiction taught?<br>2. What effect does it have on the soul of the person<br>who fights the<br>  addiction?<br><br>I think there is a very positive side<br>to addiction worth exploring and<br>  one which, as one heals the causes,<br>one can then as part of the healing<br>  tap into as giving one the sense<br>that it was not senseless and actually<br>  led someone to where their soul<br>wanted them to go.<br><br>Love & Light,<br><br>Lee<br><br>HSLotsof at aol.com<br>wrote:<br>Dear list,<br><br>More than twenty years ago when I was performing<br>literature searches on<br>ibogaine and opioid and stimulant pharmacology<br>to support proposed<br>  ibogaine patents<br>I obtained a copy of Heroin<br>Addiction - A Metabolic Disease by Drs.<br>  Dole and<br>Nyswander, the<br>developers of methadone maintenance therapy. The paper<br>remained in my<br>files unvisited for twenty years when I rediscovered it<br>and<br>provided<br>it in a brochure presented at the American Association for the<br><br>Treatment of<br>Opioid Dependence (AATOD) conference held in<br>Washington, DC in April<br>  2003<br>. Most of the papers except for<br>the<br>Dole/Nyswander paper were presented in electronic form on the Dora<br><br>Weiner Foundation<br>web page following the conference. There was no<br>PDF file of the Dole<br>  paper<br>available and I did not have the<br>knowledge or time to provide such<br>  then. It is<br>an amazingly original<br>paper and encouraging to any methadone patient who<br>might read it and to<br>any ibogaine researcher who wished to be accorded<br>  the respect<br>in<br>the ibogaine world that Dole was accorded in the methadone world.<br><br>All<br>that being said, Heroin Addiction - A Metabolic Disease is<br>available as<br>a<br>downloadable PDF file from<br><br>http://www.doraweiner.org/dole_nyswander_1967.pdf<br><br>Howard<br><br><<br>br>/]=------------------------------------------------------------------ <br>---<br><br>  =[\<br>[%] Ibogaine List Commands:<br><br>http://ibogaine.mindvox.com/IbogaineList.html<br>[%]<br>\]=------------------------------------------------------------------<br>---<br>=[/<br><br><br><br><br>http://www.myeboga.com<br><br>Free copies of<br>Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the media<br>  available<br>here:<br><br>www.myeboga.com/freecopy.html<br><br><br>ALL-NEW Yahoo!<br>Messenger - all new features - even more fun!<br><br>  ><br> > _______________________________________________<br> > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com<br> > The most personalized portal on the Web!<br> ><br> ><br> ><br>/]=----------
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