[Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga - Att. Nick

Nick Sandberg nick227 at tiscali.co.uk
Sat Jan 1 14:18:16 EST 2005


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga at yahoo.co.uk]
  Sent: 01 January 2005 14:44
  To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
  Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga - Att. Nick


  Hi Nick,

  There are many streams but only one river, it is said.

  Sorry, for some reason I thought you had a catholic background. I am sure
there are cultural differences between the two which I honestly don't know
much about. Also, the diff between England/Ireland culture.

  I suppose in a way my way of thinking has a certain simplicity to it in
itself. I was thinking about your post since yesterday and I think perhaps
where we differ significantly is this:

  My experience tells me that there is a creative source which at this
moment in time i would say has spawned Gods=Gods+Goddesses. I imagine then
that there is some kind of relationship going on between dark and light
also. Just a thought.

  Anyway, I believe that we can become or are connected to a particular
God/Goddess and that each soul grows into awareness of itself and its
relationship to the Gods & Source or remains undeveloped.

  This is why I talk of dark entities as being spirits which live off our
vulnerabilities as opposed to the Shadow which is ourself we run away from,
i.e. a kind of psychic split that becomes personified in an inner
personality we are afraid of (partly because we blame it (ourself) for the
way we are and also we are frightened of it due to our indoctrination, i.e.
we believe that what we are is what is wrong with us and refuse to really
acknowledge who we really are in all its "darkness" also.) These dark
entities, possession, are for me a reality. I see healing as consisting of
exorcism (to use a strong word), healing of psychic wounds and reintegration
of the Shadow. Yet, knowledge of the entities is something that falls out of
the experience and is not the motivation itself.

  Perhaps in 10 years my perspective will change but being a practical man I
work from where I find myself, now, if that understanding takes me further.
When it stops doing that i will ask the question: why? I find your position
curious and challenging but I can only speculate on its meaning.

  Hi Lee,

  I am just offering that you point your attention back toward your actual
identity, back before the mind's conception of who you were commenced. When
you start this many things will change spontaneously. Whilst the mind is
relatively content with it's idea of who it is it is easy to talk all this
stuff about gods, demons, shadows, souls, etc. You can view the world
through this filter of myriad dualisms, it is relatively safe and you can
expand your mind's idea of who you are little by little. This is the
business of therapy, of healing. I do it day in day out, it's a nice easy
way to deal with reality. But what I'm talking about is something
different - that you stop trying to heal, stop trying to "get better," at
least for a little while, and actually start to examine the core
preconception that this whole process of self-improvement is based upon,
this idea of who you are.

  Like you say, it's not for everybody. But once the addictive and more
fucked up tendencies have been healed within the experience of individuality
then maybe it's time to start looking.

  with love

  Nick


   It obviously speaks to you but may not speak to where others find
themselves. In the same way what I write may not speak to where a person
finds themself.

  The most dangerous doctrine I have encountered in my entire life is the
one that encourages acceptance of how things are by placing your trust in a
higher source while at the same time doing nothing tangible to change.

  In any case the proof of the pudding is in the eating and when you dump
all the words the question has to be: where you are now, is it better than
where you were? And if it is, then I believe the spiritual knowledge grows
as a consequence of experience and intention to understand.

  Lee


  Nick Sandberg <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga at yahoo.co.uk]
      Sent: 31 December 2004 14:48
      To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
      Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] Belief Systems: The Path of Eboga - Att. Nick



      Hi Nick,



      I think you are right about the TV trying to help me but not in the
way you think J



      Krisnamurti argued that we should not accept anybody's beliefs etc.
That we should find out things for ourselves and hence I have lived my life
by this dictum: What is, is what is not. So I know you will understand that
while I am happy to be challenged by your views there is no way I am going
to depart from a path I have spent a life time finding, which has
transformed my life remarkably, simply because you may consider it a folly
of sorts.



      Hi Lee,



      I don't consider what you're doing to be folly. I just put my energy
out, that's all.



      One of the major stumbling blocks I went through was to let go of the
simplistic catholic teachings that encouraged me to accept how things were
and to seek peace of mind through a simple connection to Christ, along a few
guidelines which generally played on guilt that I should be grateful for
what I had. THANKS BE TO GOD I GOT RID OF THAT CROCK OF SHIT IN MY LIFE!
Hence, I was very excited when I didn’t find Krisnamurti – I found myself!



      So when I read what you write it reminds me of the religious
teachings, Catholic included, that close the doors to many other
possibilities based on the idea that it is right. Because you have not
experienced something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.



      Think of me as spiritually immature if you wish but I am, in my
opinion, a very, very blessed man. In the words of Karma, I have watched my
Karma from this life burn and leave me and also Karma from my past life
which I have relived through eboga. I am measurably a far different man
whose experience of life is utterly transformed. I am someone who feels in a
way I have not since I was a child.



      So forgive me if I chose to stick to the path I am on. If I were to
take your advice I would only have myself to blame.



      You clearly do not subscribe to the view that life is for developing
the soul through the experiences we have and need to resolve and understand.
I do and this is fundamental to my experience.



      A question: why is the idea that we have a path and work to do on that
path to grow our own souls so alien to you? I am asking the question for the
gut response and not the intellectual one. Is it something to do with your
own catholic upbringing?



      Well, I'm anglo-iranian but was brought up good old C of E protestant.



      I very much believe that when we clear the ego we move onwards
spiritually and so I guess I would have to say that I find your views
possibly dangerous as they discourage the kind of work that can bring
results. If someone has the choice to do the work with a strong chance to
move towards inner peace, is it right to encourage them to seek a simple
answer that quite possibly will keep them in their shit for a lifetime? I
say this because the simple spiritual answers didn’t work for me or for many
others. YET, the answers themselves are always simple. THAT is the point of
simplicity I subscribe to and illustrates my point that: yes it is simple
but yes it is not that simple. It actually doesn’t matter what system you
use as long as you get where you are going
a car, a plane, a train, a
bicycle
.



      It's a good point. I do training at the Humaniversity in Holland where
they are constantly battling to keep people moving towards more feeling when
their mind is attracted to saying "Everything is alright as it is." There's
no easy way out of the position. It's just part of the whole drama of
existence. Existence grows you, what to do?



      Where I disagree:



      1. “Whether you're experiencing a lot of source, or not, you've no
real way to know this, because an undifferentiated field can't be known with
the mind, there's nothing to relate it to.”



      I think souls are spiritually differentiated and we experience the
spiritual realms via our soul, i.e. “NO MIND”, as interconnected spiritual
phenomena.



      I'm not creating the distinction soul/not soul, just pointing toward
what is existential true - (hideous word I know, existential! Makes things
sound complicated) What is beyond all distinctions?



      Whilst you are relating to the world from the perspective Ego/not ego
(I/not I) then therapy is easy because it makes total sense to "improve
yourself". With the onset of a different perspective so the challenges get
stronger because there is always the option to deal with the existential
truth that nothing changes, as that is also your experienced reality. You
also can't play small any longer, you can't hide behind the facade of
"little me", this little being in a vast sea, because there is also the
awareness that you experientially are the vast sea. Life for the mind gets
harder because it is constantly confronted with two opposing perspectives. I
read what you write about spirituality and souls etc and part of me longs to
be going back to such a singular perspective. But the truth is that it's no
longer my reality. I don't have a choice to take a spiritual path because I
already know there's nowhere it could possibly lead to. Frankly, it's a
fucking drag half the time, but that's how things are for me.



      with love



      Nick



      2. “The only "spiritual helper" I've encountered on either iboga or
ayahuasca is myself.”



      Not my personal experience but it is the experience of many. In my
experiences with eboga I am continually (these days with a cleaner ego)
surrounded and helped by spirits and I see them as not I - yet we are one at
a deeper level of spiritual insight. I feel a great love and respect for
them. That is my experience. I see souls as separate entities that are also
utterly connected.



      That is what makes for the greatness of "GOD" as it can have so many
separate parts that are at the same time "ONE." Contrast this with planet
earth that has so many individuals who are unable to work for the good of
one another and most certainly do not act as ONE!



      So is there any basis upon which we can discuss when our views appear
to be so different? I guess we agree on some things:



      1. "We are the source."



      Yes, if you consider what source has transformed into to be another
form of source.



      2. "Everything that can be related is relative."



      Yes, if by that you mean that everything is interconnected.



      3. "With Osho we call it "no mind." If you've got a lot of it mostly
you're happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you."



      Yes, I have a lot more of it now because of the work I have done with
eboga. And because I have  recognised my humanity and how it works the doors
are now opening to a higher state of mind. This is the work you seem to have
difficulty accepting as necessary. I think this is the crux of your debate -
you dislike any system of thought that leaves you with something to do.



      4. “My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there
for the mind that's having trouble dealing with just how simple life
actually is. They don't do anything because there's no possibility you could
ever be anything other than 100% who you are.”



      Yes, and through the work we learn this but first we need to learn the
reasons behind the blockage and in doing so the blockage falls away and we
grow spiritually to be a differentiated soul that fully participates in the
whole which then makes the whole greater: GOD GROWS.



      Conclusion: Perhaps we are talking about two ends of the same stick?



      I have a hard time understanding why you have a problem with a healing
system based on eboga that consists of understanding how the ego works and
the spiritual happenings that take place on the way towards healing the soul
and ego, IF, in the end it works and leads to a state of “NO MIND” as you
call it. I find an understanding of the ego extremely useful as I can use
that understanding to progress much more quickly and let go of what I used
along the way.



      It reminds me of the story of 2 Buddhist monks crossing a stream. A
woman needed help and one of the monks carried her across. After walking
some way the other who was irritated by this said: “You are unclean. You
touched that woman!” He replied: “I left that woman behind a long time ago
but you are still carrying her.”



      Love & Light,



      Lee



      P.S. Thanks for the spiritual sojourn!



      Nick Sandberg <nick227 at tiscali.co.uk> wrote:


        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga at yahoo.co.uk]
        > Sent: 26 December 2004 16:37
        > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
        > Subject: RE: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven & Hell - att Jasen
        >
        >
        > Hi Nick,
        >
        > I wrote a considered reply but it got gobbled up when
        > I hit send on my TV
        > internet connection back in Ireland. So I will keep
        > this one "brief."
        >

        Hi Lee,

        Aha! See even the telly is trying to help you out!

        > In the same way there is probably a unifying field
        > theory that
        > explains all phenomena in this dimension, I believe
        > there is also
        > a source from which all comes and through the power of
        > creation,
        > which you and jasen have alluded, much has been
        > created.
        >

        there is no unifying field theory. the universe IS a unified field.
it
        doesn't need a theory in order to be. The occasional desire that
rises in
        humans to create unifying field theories is merely the field having
fun with
        itself. There is nothing outside of the field to even call it a
field.

        > If we only look to the source we miss the nature of
        > what has derived
        > from the source, its meaning for us and its wonders.
        >

        we are the source, man. Everything that can be related is relative.
Whether
        you're experiencing a lot of source, or not, you've no real way to
know
        this, because an undifferentiated field can't be known with the
mind,
        there's nothing to relate it to. For sure, you can TRY and look at
the
        source or something.

        With Osho we call it "no mind." If you've got a lot of it mostly
you're
        happy despite what happens and people are attracted to you.

        > I personally fully embrace the physical as well as the
        > spiritual and work to
        > integrate both. I dont subscribe to a view that
        > enourages ignorance of one
        > or the other.
        >

        My personal experience is that spiritual endeavours are just there
for the
        mind that's having trouble dealing with just how simple life
actually is.
        They don't do anything because there's no possibility you could ever
be
        anything other than 100% who you are. Of course, we all of us,
certainly me,
        regularly experience an intense desire to challenge this.

        > I have a question for you:
        >
        > Who or what for you are the spiritual helpers who work
        > through the eboga
        > spirit and bring so much healing to so many? Should
        > they be ignored or is
        > a certain amount of gratiude in order?
        >

        Personally, I feel gratitude, for sure, even though my own iboga
initiation
        in the Cameroun was a pretty crazy and haphazard affair. And the
only
        "spiritual helper" I've encountered on either iboga or ayahuasca is
myself.
        I've had some unbelievably brutal and unbelievably blissful
experiences but
        they've all seemed to be just me talking to me. That was my
experience.

        with love

        Nick


        > A Happy New Year to you
        >
        > Lee
        >
        >
        > --- Nick Sandberg wrote:
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Lee Albert [mailto:myeboga at yahoo.co.uk]
        > > Sent: 20 December 2004 17:34
        > > To: ibogaine at mindvox.com
        > > Subject: Re: [Ibogaine] belief systems: Heaven &
        > > Hell - att Jasen
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Jasen,
        > >
        > > Forgive me for saying this (100% respect intended)
        > > but I am sorry, I dont
        > > think it is that simple.
        > >
        > > Lee,
        > >
        > > The truth is very simple when it hits. It is
        > > insanely simple. I was in the
        > > Humaniversity in Holland, very spaced out on the AUM
        >
        >
        > =====
        > http://www.myeboga.com
        >
        > Free copies of Amazing Grace by Lee Albert for members of the
        > media available here:
        >
        > www.myeboga.com/freecopy.html
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ___________________________________________________________
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